Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
Its not that the skins didnt want him... its that Cousins no longer wanted the skins. I think he was hurt when they tagged him the second time and he made up his mind then that he wanted out of that dumpster fire of an organization. the skins were still trying to play games with him this year right before FA. You know that meme that has KC screaming at the camera something about "how you like that?" well I think that was him venting some frustration towards the skins ownership and management. He was never going to stay in DC after the way he was treated and kept dangling by them IMO.
for now I like to think of it as "never look a gift horse in the mouth"
This is what I think as well. They soured the well, and he didn't want to play for Washington anymore. I've heard somewhere that the first tag was the Redskins not wanting to commit to Cousins, and the second tag was Cousins not wanting to commit to the Redskins. I don't think Cousins is an elite QB, but I think he's nailed the negotiating part of it. He's not coming from a position of weakness. So many players will just take the first relatively big contract they're offered by a team they don't really like (who signs a long term deal with the Browns?). I think you really have to respect Cousins for knowing his value and knowing that his injury risk is pretty minimal and finding a job he really wants to be at rather than taking a bunch of millions from a team he doesn't respect.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Agreed. With a handful of exceptions, supporting cast is the biggest part of a QB's perceived level of talent. You give a career backup a good one (Keenum) and he's top 10. You take a couple key pieces away from a young hotshot QB (Carr) and he's not so hot.
Unless our OC struggles with play calling, the Vikings are going to look very smart in this signing. Surrounded by this much talent, Cousins is going to look elite whether he actually is or not.
Good point on Carr... I'd also add Matthew Stafford to the list. He's taken Detroit to the playoffs 3 teams in his 9 year career. He's never won a playoff game.
The Falcons went 4-12, 6-10, and 8-8 with Matt Ryan. Those years were preceded by them going 13-3 (lost in the NFCCG) and followed the 8-8 year with a Super Bowl appearance in 2016.
Cousins isn't an elite QB. But I'd argue that Brees, Big Ben, Matt Ryan, Matthew Stafford, etc. aren't either. They're very good QBs and can jump into that "elite QB" category when they have very good talent around them. Statistically, Cousins has been a top 8 QB for the past three seasons. If he can keep that up or even improve upon his career numbers AND win a bunch of games (including the playoffs), he'll get the same respect as these other QBs.
Cousins isn't an elite QB, but the real question is how he'll play when it matters most. Flacco and Foles weren't elite, but they made plays when it counted. Brees and Big Ben have made plays when it counted. Their teams have confidence in them and they're steady in the face of adversity. I think they're elite. Ryan and Stafford are great in the regular season, but I don't think they're elite yet. I don't think we know that about Cousins yet. With gunslingers like Favre, you knew you were always in it, but you also knew that there was a decent chance of him screwing it up with an untimely turnover at the exact wrong time. I think Cousins also has that risk factor.
I'm hoping the Vikings can work with Cousins to keep him aggressive, but minimize the turnovers that happen at the exact wrong time. I think if they do that, that should be enough.
The relationship between Cousins and Washington (Dan Snyder) needed more than a break, it needed a break up. There was no going back. Kirk was over it. It was time to move on.
The other side of the question is. Why were more teams then us willing to sign Kirk to a new deal? Seemed to have a bit of interest for a mediocre QB. I think Washington made a mistake. Smith is a good QB. l he is the best Washington could have done considering how they mishandled the Cousins situation. Still why give up even a 3rd round pick for a older Kirk who's had several attempts now to prove his playoff abilities and like most big games in his career failed. I'll stay with my 1st thought. They're run by an idiot.
Quote: @medaille said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Agreed. With a handful of exceptions, supporting cast is the biggest part of a QB's perceived level of talent. You give a career backup a good one (Keenum) and he's top 10. You take a couple key pieces away from a young hotshot QB (Carr) and he's not so hot.
Unless our OC struggles with play calling, the Vikings are going to look very smart in this signing. Surrounded by this much talent, Cousins is going to look elite whether he actually is or not.
Good point on Carr... I'd also add Matthew Stafford to the list. He's taken Detroit to the playoffs 3 teams in his 9 year career. He's never won a playoff game.
The Falcons went 4-12, 6-10, and 8-8 with Matt Ryan. Those years were preceded by them going 13-3 (lost in the NFCCG) and followed the 8-8 year with a Super Bowl appearance in 2016.
Cousins isn't an elite QB. But I'd argue that Brees, Big Ben, Matt Ryan, Matthew Stafford, etc. aren't either. They're very good QBs and can jump into that "elite QB" category when they have very good talent around them. Statistically, Cousins has been a top 8 QB for the past three seasons. If he can keep that up or even improve upon his career numbers AND win a bunch of games (including the playoffs), he'll get the same respect as these other QBs.
Cousins isn't an elite QB, but the real question is how he'll play when it matters most. Flacco and Foles weren't elite, but they made plays when it counted. Brees and Big Ben have made plays when it counted. Their teams have confidence in them and they're steady in the face of adversity. I think they're elite. Ryan and Stafford are great in the regular season, but I don't think they're elite yet. I don't think we know that about Cousins yet. With gunslingers like Favre, you knew you were always in it, but you also knew that there was a decent chance of him screwing it up with an untimely turnover at the exact wrong time. I think Cousins also has that risk factor.
I'm hoping the Vikings can work with Cousins to keep him aggressive, but minimize the turnovers that happen at the exact wrong time. I think if they do that, that should be enough.
Yeah, but I just think the term "elite" is a nebulous, slippery, almost meaningless term. You'd consider John Elway elite, right? He had the reputation of someone who couldn't win the big one...until he did. If you look at his stats, he didn't consistently throw more TDs than INTs until about his 10th season...and the arrival of a running game.
I think with the supporting cast he has in Minnesota, it's very possible we'll start hearing the e-word thrown around Kirk Cousins a bit. But for me, it's the same cautionary flag many of us were waving around Case Keenum: his supporting cast is going to make him look better than he really is.
And he KNOWS that. It's the biggest reason he signed here.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
Its not that the skins didnt want him... its that Cousins no longer wanted the skins. I think he was hurt when they tagged him the second time and he made up his mind then that he wanted out of that dumpster fire of an organization. the skins were still trying to play games with him this year right before FA. You know that meme that has KC screaming at the camera something about "how you like that?" well I think that was him venting some frustration towards the skins ownership and management. He was never going to stay in DC after the way he was treated and kept dangling by them IMO.
for now I like to think of it as "never look a gift horse in the mouth"
Exactly. Many of the comments made earlier (poor management, unwillingness to commit, owner ego) were reasons that Cousins didn't want to stay with that team. Early on, he was treated as just a backup to RGIII, and he knew it and disliked it. Maybe he didn't especially love the east coast. I believe he was offered a long-term deal, possibly twice, before being franchised. He refused them and he waited the Redskins out.
Cousins chose his own path away from Washington and we're fortunate he chose the Vikings. A lot of the media suggesting, "Washington didn't want Cousins, something must be wrong with him", is just an attempt to justify a player controlling his employer.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
Yeah, but I just think the term "elite" is a nebulous, slippery, almost meaningless term. You'd consider John Elway elite, right? He had the reputation of someone who couldn't win the big one...until he did. If you look at his stats, he didn't consistently throw more TDs than INTs until about his 10th season...and the arrival of a running game.
I think with the supporting cast he has in Minnesota, it's very possible we'll start hearing the e-word thrown around Kirk Cousins a bit. But for me, it's the same cautionary flag many of us were waving around Case Keenum: his supporting cast is going to make him look better than he really is.
And he KNOWS that. It's the biggest reason he signed here.
I don't think it's that nebulous. I think elite players are clearly elite. They are undeniably elite. I don't have opinions on Elway. My memory of him is fuzzy at best and I was too young for the bulk of his career. I do agree that it's very likely that Cousins will put up regular season numbers that look comparable to the elite QBs and that it doesn't mean he's elite. I also agree that players will look better with better players around them. I'm just hoping that Cousins is a good enough QB for us to win. If he puts up an elite-esque stat season, while not being elite. That's good enough for me. I'm not expecting him to turn into a Brees or a Rodgers.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
Its not that the skins didnt want him... its that Cousins no longer wanted the skins. I think he was hurt when they tagged him the second time and he made up his mind then that he wanted out of that dumpster fire of an organization. the skins were still trying to play games with him this year right before FA. You know that meme that has KC screaming at the camera something about "how you like that?" well I think that was him venting some frustration towards the skins ownership and management. He was never going to stay in DC after the way he was treated and kept dangling by them IMO.
for now I like to think of it as "never look a gift horse in the mouth"
You beat me to it. I think it's a matter of Cousins not wanting to sign with them. But the 'Skins had to save face... so here we are.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
Its not that the skins didnt want him... its that Cousins no longer wanted the skins. I think he was hurt when they tagged him the second time and he made up his mind then that he wanted out of that dumpster fire of an organization. the skins were still trying to play games with him this year right before FA. You know that meme that has KC screaming at the camera something about "how you like that?" well I think that was him venting some frustration towards the skins ownership and management. He was never going to stay in DC after the way he was treated and kept dangling by them IMO.
for now I like to think of it as "never look a gift horse in the mouth"
Exactly. Many of the comments made earlier (poor management, unwillingness to commit, owner ego) were reasons that Cousins didn't want to stay with that team. Early on, he was treated as just a backup to RGIII, and he knew it and disliked it. Maybe he didn't especially love the east coast. I believe he was offered a long-term deal, possibly twice, before being franchised. He refused them and he waited the Redskins out.
Cousins chose his own path away from Washington and we're fortunate he chose the Vikings. A lot of the media suggesting, "Washington didn't want Cousins, something must be wrong with him", is just an attempt to justify a player controlling his employer.
IIRC they tried to lowball him the first year before tagging him, the second year I think they were offering fair money but only a 1 or 2 year deal and he wanted either top money guaranteed or longer terms, but dont quote me on that.
Although the Redskins didn't handle the situation well in the media, Cousins still deserves some of the blame for why things didn't work out. As pointed out above there was clearly a bias towards RG3. The second Snyder hired Jay Gruden anything related to the RG3 saga was left on his shoulders and couldn't be passed onto the previous regime. Considering how much they gave up to commit the next decade to Griffen most teams would have held out hope he'd be able to turn it around and become they player they believed they were drafting.
When you're in Kirk Cousins shoes and performing well in the starters role there is obviously going to be some jealousy that a lesser player is getting the franchise QB treatment when everything you've done has proven you may well in fact be that guy. But for Cousins, you have to let it go at some point to. Most players aren't going to get a life altering contract after a seasons and a half of strong play. Draft position sticks with you until your second contract and Kirk wasn't going to accept that. Heck, look at what Sammy Watkins got as a UFA compared to comparable players who were not top 10 picks.
When Kirk didn't accept the first offer the Redskins presented the end result was always going to be the same. The year to year cash flow of the tag is a great value for the player and with QB's generally staying healthy its not a bad bet on yourself. With the jealousy still lingering in Cousins mind taking the tag year over year was an easy choice. At the end of the day you then have the opportunity to re-sign with the Redskins on a fair QB1 deal or test UFA and be paid as the best QB in the game due to the supply/demand. Given what had happened and the three teams willing to pay for QB in potentially more favorable locations that was the option he chose.
But I will come back to the point that if Cousins doesn't worry about politics and puts his head down and works the situation with the Redskins likely could have been worked out. Everyone has to compromise on both sides and Cousins and his reps were the ones who weren't willing to counter the Redskins offer.
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