Quote: @suncoastvike said:
@ minny65 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ minny65 said:
Even if you extrapolate Diggs stats for the games missed he is no where near a TOP 10 WR, statistically. 14 million average salary is TOP money.
I would consider around 11 million with heavy incentives to reach 14 million if he can produce Top 10 production like around 85-90 catches, 1200 yards and around 10 TD's.
Last year, in 14 games, he had 64 catches, for 849 yards and 8 TD's. Those stats, even extrapolated out for 2 games missed, are not Top 10 production. Again a heavy incentive package for him to produce what he thinks he is worth. Show me baby otherwise play out the year and then decide.
this is where i am at.... 10 million dollar base, bonus million each for 16+ games played, 85+ receptions, 10+ TD, 1000+ yards.
I am also kind of torn between having these guys play out their deals and getting their best efforts before we let them walk for potential compensatory picks, VS putting them out on the trade wire and seeing if we can get a 1st or 2nd round offer for them in next years draft vs a 3rd round at best in 2 years. I can see the value in having them here this year, but I also think we will be in better shape to replace their production sooner and keep the team viable longer if we move them now.
Not sure we would get a first rounder in a trade of either Barr or Diggs because the new team would also have to redo their contract demands. Maybe a 2nd rounder this year and something the following year?? Totally making up but don't think we would get a first rounder. Knowing that is it worth it?
I think both are asking for too much from what we are offering. We can try and negotiate with them, trade them, or let the season play out for both with another year to judge. I lean towards let the year play out. Maybe this next year, Diggs misses another 3 games or so and produces about the same = not top 10 money at all. Maybe Barr plays lights out and flashes pass rush ability from the DE/3-4 Lb'er scheme? IDK, but another season will enlighten I would think. Sort of our approach with Bradford and prove that he can stay healthy which he couldn't. Glad we didn't work on an extension for him.
Yep sounds smart to me. If both insist on top dollar make them prove it. You got guys like Thielan and Kendrick and you are going to pay these guys way more? In Diggs case twice as much. If one guy is lights out we might have to pay up. If both are we gambled and lost. If neither do we are ahead. Plus still can tag one if he's really really lights out.
I don't want to pay Diggs Top 10 money and it seems like that is what he wants. I also don't want to pay Barr like a 3-4 pass rushing OLB because that is also too much money and not the position he plays in this defensive scheme.
I am for continued negotiation but if at impasse I want them both to play out this season and then decide from there.
Also, others are throwing out Richardson and his one year deal. I agree that if he plays like a top 3T then I would prefer negotiating with him then paying Barr 12+ per year.
So I am all for letting the chips fall where they may. True, if all 3 step up and play great then we are in bind but a good bind. If all 3 play like crap or just don't step up then we have better negotiation power. This is like the debate we had with our QB position last offseason - both Bradford signed for one year and Teddy playing 5th year option. By not extending either one we let the season play out and we learned that not extendeding either one was the best move in foresight and hindsight.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ StickyBun said:
The Vikings have hopes that Richardson pans out and they'd love to sign-him long term.....Zimmer has said as much. For Z, Sheldon is the guy that really is vital in his D and he's never really had.
So I don't know what happens with Barr/Diggs, but its obvious that Minnesota wants Richardson, too....if it works out.
Richardson has the potential to finally be the "Geno Atkins" of Zimmer's defense... a dominant 3T that can really collapse the pocket and open up the double A gap blitzes. I wouldn't be surprised if the Vikings let Barr walk and re-sign Richardson if he has a great season.
I wonder if that is part of the delay on both Diggs and Barr.
That's what I've been thinking. If Sheldon has a great year--and with this supporting cast he really should--then he rockets to the top of the must-sign list. It would be silly to dismiss him as a one-year hired gun when the position he plays is so important to this defense...hell, to all defenses. At 27 years old, he could become the "face" of this defense for years to come. We were incredibly lucky to land a player of his caliber, and we should use to our advantage the fact that he can't talk contract with any team but us for several months. It might be very wise to wait on all three until we're through the bulk of our schedule. The development of Jaleel Johnson, Jalyn Holmes, Treadwell and Downs could also have a say in this decision.
whats next years draft look like for athletic LBs?
Looks like the 1st round is studded with edge players who look more like 34 OLBs than 43. But then so did Barr. No clue yet whether any of them can play off the ball and cover anyone.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ StickyBun said:
The Vikings have hopes that Richardson pans out and they'd love to sign-him long term.....Zimmer has said as much. For Z, Sheldon is the guy that really is vital in his D and he's never really had.
So I don't know what happens with Barr/Diggs, but its obvious that Minnesota wants Richardson, too....if it works out.
Richardson has the potential to finally be the "Geno Atkins" of Zimmer's defense... a dominant 3T that can really collapse the pocket and open up the double A gap blitzes. I wouldn't be surprised if the Vikings let Barr walk and re-sign Richardson if he has a great season.
I wonder if that is part of the delay on both Diggs and Barr.
That's what I've been thinking. If Sheldon has a great year--and with this supporting cast he really should--then he rockets to the top of the must-sign list. It would be silly to dismiss him as a one-year hired gun when the position he plays is so important to this defense...hell, to all defenses. At 27 years old, he could become the "face" of this defense for years to come. We were incredibly lucky to land a player of his caliber, and we should use to our advantage the fact that he can't talk contract with any team but us for several months. It might be very wise to wait on all three until we're through the bulk of our schedule. The development of Jaleel Johnson, Jalyn Holmes, Treadwell and Downs could also have a say in this decision.
whats next years draft look like for athletic LBs?
Looks like the 1st round is studded with edge players who look more like 34 OLBs than 43. But then so did Barr. No clue yet whether any of them can play off the ball and cover anyone.
well considering that is the mold that Barr is from... that should benefit the team in that we should be able to find a serviceable replacement for Barr in the draft if they cant get him to come to terms.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ StickyBun said:
The Vikings have hopes that Richardson pans out and they'd love to sign-him long term.....Zimmer has said as much. For Z, Sheldon is the guy that really is vital in his D and he's never really had.
So I don't know what happens with Barr/Diggs, but its obvious that Minnesota wants Richardson, too....if it works out.
Richardson has the potential to finally be the "Geno Atkins" of Zimmer's defense... a dominant 3T that can really collapse the pocket and open up the double A gap blitzes. I wouldn't be surprised if the Vikings let Barr walk and re-sign Richardson if he has a great season.
I wonder if that is part of the delay on both Diggs and Barr. They both want top money and neither are really top of their game guys on a regular basis... they have that ability but they dont show it every game. If Richardson is able to really open things up and create havoc himself it really lessens the need for Barr as you say, but on the other side of the ball, if Cousins continues to spread the wealth in terms of pass distribution, that would also lessen Diggs impact for the offense. Dont get me wrong, it would be great to keep them, but I think we need to pay great money to great players and both Barr and Diggs have the ability, but to date they seem to be more of a Good player in terms of contribution to the team. (Poor, Weak, Average, Good, Great--scale)
But, as the contract conversations move to Richardson - isn't he very similar to Barr and Diggs, in that he has shown more potential than consistency? I think we're all assuming the best of various players...
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ StickyBun said:
The Vikings have hopes that Richardson pans out and they'd love to sign-him long term.....Zimmer has said as much. For Z, Sheldon is the guy that really is vital in his D and he's never really had.
So I don't know what happens with Barr/Diggs, but its obvious that Minnesota wants Richardson, too....if it works out.
Richardson has the potential to finally be the "Geno Atkins" of Zimmer's defense... a dominant 3T that can really collapse the pocket and open up the double A gap blitzes. I wouldn't be surprised if the Vikings let Barr walk and re-sign Richardson if he has a great season.
I wonder if that is part of the delay on both Diggs and Barr. They both want top money and neither are really top of their game guys on a regular basis... they have that ability but they dont show it every game. If Richardson is able to really open things up and create havoc himself it really lessens the need for Barr as you say, but on the other side of the ball, if Cousins continues to spread the wealth in terms of pass distribution, that would also lessen Diggs impact for the offense. Dont get me wrong, it would be great to keep them, but I think we need to pay great money to great players and both Barr and Diggs have the ability, but to date they seem to be more of a Good player in terms of contribution to the team. (Poor, Weak, Average, Good, Great--scale)
But, as the contract conversations move to Richardson - isn't he very similar to Barr and Diggs, in that he has shown more potential than consistency? I think we're all assuming the best of various players...
but he is at a position that lifts others around him in this scheme. Barr can be lightning in a bottle, but his excellence really doesnt make life easier for the rest of the D like Richardsons would. so much happens front and center that having dominance in that position will only pay dividends for everybody else on the field.
Richardson is one and done. He will give maximum effort (which he inarguably hasn't always done) and get good to great results, which will be artificially elevated to at least some extent by the quality of players around.
Then he'll ask for Aaron Donald type money and get it from a bottom feeder with tons of cap space and go back to being a good but not dominate player.
Waiting on signing your own drafted and developed players in the hopes that your mercenary rental guy has a great year and then wants to stay for the proverbial home town discount is irresponsible and I guarantee you that is not what the FO is doing.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
Richardson is one and done. He will give maximum effort (which he inarguably hasn't always done) and get good to great results, which will be artificially elevated to at least some extent by the quality of players around.
Then he'll ask for Aaron Donald type money and get it from a bottom feeder with tons of cap space and go back to being a good but not dominate player.
Waiting on signing your own drafted and developed players in the hopes that your mercenary rental guy has a great year and then wants to stay for the proverbial home town discount is irresponsible and I guarantee you that is not what the FO is doing.
Tough to guarantee this. You make a bunch of sense, but at the same time, it remains to be seen what kind of wrecking crew Joseph-Richardson develop into. The spot is a key position for Zimmer's defense. To your point, it will be extremely difficult to accomplish if Richardson has a stellar year. But there's no guarantees. I happen to think that this board likes Barr a bunch more than the Viking's front office. We'll see.
Regardless, I would take a one-and-down outstanding season from Richardson: it would mean very good things for this team in 2018.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ StickyBun said:
The Vikings have hopes that Richardson pans out and they'd love to sign-him long term.....Zimmer has said as much. For Z, Sheldon is the guy that really is vital in his D and he's never really had.
So I don't know what happens with Barr/Diggs, but its obvious that Minnesota wants Richardson, too....if it works out.
Richardson has the potential to finally be the "Geno Atkins" of Zimmer's defense... a dominant 3T that can really collapse the pocket and open up the double A gap blitzes. I wouldn't be surprised if the Vikings let Barr walk and re-sign Richardson if he has a great season.
I wonder if that is part of the delay on both Diggs and Barr. They both want top money and neither are really top of their game guys on a regular basis... they have that ability but they dont show it every game. If Richardson is able to really open things up and create havoc himself it really lessens the need for Barr as you say, but on the other side of the ball, if Cousins continues to spread the wealth in terms of pass distribution, that would also lessen Diggs impact for the offense. Dont get me wrong, it would be great to keep them, but I think we need to pay great money to great players and both Barr and Diggs have the ability, but to date they seem to be more of a Good player in terms of contribution to the team. (Poor, Weak, Average, Good, Great--scale)
But, as the contract conversations move to Richardson - isn't he very similar to Barr and Diggs, in that he has shown more potential than consistency? I think we're all assuming the best of various players...
Sure, but this isn't pie in the sky optimism. Richardson was rookie of the year and made the pro bowl his 2nd season. He hasn't always been a model citizen, so that could rear its ugly head again, but in terms of ability and fit, it would be a pretty enormous surprise if he didn't explode in this defense. I would say our interest in him long term is probably just as much about Johnson and Holmes as it is about Richardson himself.
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