Quote: @AGRforever said:
antivaxers need to be casterated or have their tubes tied so they dont pass on their genetic deficientcies.
I have no time for people who are so blatantly ignorant.
Just want to take a moment to say how enlightened you are.
Take some time and pat yourself on the back for not being ignorant.
Quote: @medaille said:
When I read this thread or any vaccine threads, I cringe pretty heavily. When it comes to certain topics like vaccines and global warming, good debate goes out the window and is replaced by anti-intellectual bullying and elitism, where people sit on their high horse and look down on anyone who doesn't agree with them. This is very similar to the tactics that SJWs use to eliminate any competing views. I'm skeptical that the vast majority of people on either side of the vaccine issue understand the topic sufficiently well that they should feel comfortable in looking down on other people.
I'm not trying to get anyone to change their minds of the vaccine issue, but just to get people to be aware of when they are just promoting their dogma and stifling competing dogmas rather than helping anyone involved in the conversation.
Well stated. I am not anti-vaccine, but would like a choice in the matter. Forced vaccinations by the government has proven to always be safe, right? They regulate who can make them, which strains are allowed and basically, who can make the money. No problems there.
i think this is one of those deals.... with every drug there are some in the minority who have horrible negative side effects that dont justify the use of it. I would imagine that there are some who have found links from the vaccines to major issues, and if they have children that are in high risk categories for those issues I can see them wanting to roll the dice and skip the vaccines, however for parents of perfectly healthy kids who havent even bothered to have their childrens risks assessed to not only say no for their children, and to use any sort of fame or celebrity status to shout fire in a crowded theater... those people should be publicly shamed. yes there are potential side effects, but I dont see the connections linking, in mass, the vaccines to the illnesses.
Jenny McCarthey for example... has she bothered to evaluate her former life decisions and the possible effects those could have had on her child? Or is it easier to blame a vaccine for any issues that her child has so she doesnt have to face the possibility that she herself is the cause of her kids health/developmental issues.
Some things we're just not qualified to comment on. It's like taking your car to 100 mechanics. 97 of them say that your brakes are shot. You better have a pretty good reason why you believe the 3 before you put my kids in your car.
Quote: @Scoog said:
@ medaille said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ medaille said:
When I read this thread or any vaccine threads, I cringe pretty heavily. When it comes to certain topics like vaccines and global warming, good debate goes out the window and is replaced by anti-intellectual bullying and elitism, where people sit on their high horse and look down on anyone who doesn't agree with them. This is very similar to the tactics that SJWs use to eliminate any competing views. I'm skeptical that the vast majority of people on either side of the vaccine issue understand the topic sufficiently well that they should feel comfortable in looking down on other people.
I'm not trying to get anyone to change their minds of the vaccine issue, but just to get people to be aware of when they are just promoting their dogma and stifling competing dogmas rather than helping anyone involved in the conversation.
There are no 'two sides' to this issue. If you think there are, you need to educate yourself.
That's a textbook example of what I was talking about. You already know everything, so there's need for actual conversation, just a nice pat on your own back for how smart you are.
I find it interesting that both your examples have extremely strong science on one side and money grubbers (Wakefield's measles vaccine patent and autism detection kit venture, the fossil fuel industry) on the other. In both cases, the good debate in the form of scientific investigation has already taken place.
I think most people in this thread are operating on a very black and white paradigm. I don't see it as a black and white issue. It's a very nuanced issue with a lot of subpoints that are open for discussion. If you try to boil it down to a single study about a single vaccine and then use that as proof in your own mind that all vaccines in unlimited quantities are good, you are thinking too simplistically. Each vaccine is it's own cocktail of biological and non-biological materials in varying quantities. I think as parents, you really need to understand each one individually, but also as part of a battery of vaccines that you are getting. If a doctor recommends getting your kid a vaccine that isn't on the CDC's vaccine schedule, should you get it? If your infant is having medical issues should you delay getting vaccinated? How can you tell if your doctor is well informed or is operating on outdated data? For diseases that are already effectively controlled, what are the risks of delaying vaccination until the child is older? Which vaccines have been studied by researchers not paid by the company making the vaccine?
I think with both Global Warming and Vaccines, these are topics where I can clearly see in my everyday life, people that are undoubtedly dumber than I am, and who have looked into the issues less than I have are pushing agendas on things that they know very little about, and if you push them, it comes down to them hearing a soundbite and just believing that "science" has proven it. These are people who aren't saying, "I don't really know anything about vaccines, but I trust my doctor so I'm getting them." These are people who are saying "Anyone who doesn't believe in vaccines is retarded and should have their children taken away or be castrated", despite them not actually knowing anything about science or statistical studies. They are just acting as a mob enforcing a dogma they don't understand.
I'm not actually against vaccines in concept, but I'm highly skeptical of pharmaceutical companies. I think they can make up science to prove whatever they want just to sell us products. A lot of people much deeper in the scientific process regarding medicine have come out and said as such and have also stated that too much faith is put into the peer review process. I also think that our government is clearly bought and paid for by a variety of lobbying groups to the point that they make policy based on the interest of the corporations and not the public. Of the last 3 heads of the CDC, one has resigned due to financial investments in companies that were conflicts of interest (primarily tobacco, not vaccine related) and another left the CDC and became President of Vaccines at Merck. I don't think it's random chance that the US CDC recommends more vaccines per child than other developed nations. I also think vaccines are a perfect avenue for sales because you are giving people medicine for diseases they don't have. The target market is everyone, not just the sick, so the temptation is there to make a vaccine for every disease, so there's massive financial interests to help ensure that the approval processes are as greased as possible.
Quote: @medaille said:
@ Scoog said:
@ medaille said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ medaille said:
When I read this thread or any vaccine threads, I cringe pretty heavily. When it comes to certain topics like vaccines and global warming, good debate goes out the window and is replaced by anti-intellectual bullying and elitism, where people sit on their high horse and look down on anyone who doesn't agree with them. This is very similar to the tactics that SJWs use to eliminate any competing views. I'm skeptical that the vast majority of people on either side of the vaccine issue understand the topic sufficiently well that they should feel comfortable in looking down on other people.
I'm not trying to get anyone to change their minds of the vaccine issue, but just to get people to be aware of when they are just promoting their dogma and stifling competing dogmas rather than helping anyone involved in the conversation.
There are no 'two sides' to this issue. If you think there are, you need to educate yourself.
That's a textbook example of what I was talking about. You already know everything, so there's need for actual conversation, just a nice pat on your own back for how smart you are.
I find it interesting that both your examples have extremely strong science on one side and money grubbers (Wakefield's measles vaccine patent and autism detection kit venture, the fossil fuel industry) on the other. In both cases, the good debate in the form of scientific investigation has already taken place.
I think most people in this thread are operating on a very black and white paradigm. I don't see it as a black and white issue. It's a very nuanced issue with a lot of subpoints that are open for discussion. If you try to boil it down to a single study about a single vaccine and then use that as proof in your own mind that all vaccines in unlimited quantities are good, you are thinking too simplistically. Each vaccine is it's own cocktail of biological and non-biological materials in varying quantities. I think as parents, you really need to understand each one individually, but also as part of a battery of vaccines that you are getting. If a doctor recommends getting your kid a vaccine that isn't on the CDC's vaccine schedule, should you get it? If your infant is having medical issues should you delay getting vaccinated? How can you tell if your doctor is well informed or is operating on outdated data? For diseases that are already effectively controlled, what are the risks of delaying vaccination until the child is older? Which vaccines have been studied by researchers not paid by the company making the vaccine?
I think with both Global Warming and Vaccines, these are topics where I can clearly see in my everyday life, people that are undoubtedly dumber than I am, and who have looked into the issues less than I have are pushing agendas on things that they know very little about, and if you push them, it comes down to them hearing a soundbite and just believing that "science" has proven it. These are people who aren't saying, "I don't really know anything about vaccines, but I trust my doctor so I'm getting them." These are people who are saying "Anyone who doesn't believe in vaccines is retarded and should have their children taken away or be castrated", despite them not actually knowing anything about science or statistical studies. They are just acting as a mob enforcing a dogma they don't understand.
I'm not actually against vaccines in concept , but I'm highly skeptical of pharmaceutical companies. I think they can make up science to prove whatever they want just to sell us products. A lot of people much deeper in the scientific process regarding medicine have come out and said as such and have also stated that too much faith is put into the peer review process. I also think that our government is clearly bought and paid for by a variety of lobbying groups to the point that they make policy based on the interest of the corporations and not the public. Of the last 3 heads of the CDC, one has resigned due to financial investments in companies that were conflicts of interest (primarily tobacco, not vaccine related) and another left the CDC and became President of Vaccines at Merck. I don't think it's random chance that the US CDC recommends more vaccines per child than other developed nations. I also think vaccines are a perfect avenue for sales because you are giving people medicine for diseases they don't have. The target market is everyone, not just the sick, so the temptation is there to make a vaccine for every disease, so there's massive financial interests to help ensure that the approval processes are as greased as possible.
There is so much money involved, so I too am highly skeptical. And with the government enforced monopolies, I am even more skeptical. I see the money grubbers padding the pockets of politicians and raking in the $$s. Book sales are minimal compared to what the mega pharms rake in.
Also, the big issue most people I talk with don't like the massive doses of multiple vaccines to infants. They test vaccines one at a time, and not on children. But they are okay with giving massive doses to children without testing those effects. Some anti-vax people don't research and can be detected easily. But most I know care deeply about their children, some have experienced a negative effect, and most are very well read in the topic.
The other topic often ignored is the one schedule fits all. Some kids have allergies. Often those aren't discovered until later in childhood. So a child that is allergic to a certain ingredient may have a bad reaction to getting multiple doses.
We aren't talking about allergies....or the ethics of Pharma....we're talking about freaking vaccines. A tried and true method of basically saving humanity from pandemic diseases and ensuring future generations of such. But now we have the internet so some parents 'know better'. Give me a break. Its a rabbit hole of idiocy to try and debate vaccines online. Its not a debate, its a proven and highly effective medicinal methodology.
Its so ridiculous. The only reason, the ONLY reason a kid today has any kind of shot of making it to being a teenager without vaccines is because EVERYONE ELSE has their kids vaccinated. The more some parents choose NOT to, the more you'll see the resurgence and risk for everyone of disease that was completely wiped out. Irresponsible and ignorant. If I was a new parent today, I'd keep my kids away from ANY kid not vaccinated. Its called responsible parenting.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
We aren't talking about allergies....or the ethics of Pharma....we're talking about freaking vaccines. A tried and true method of basically saving humanity from pandemic diseases and ensuring future generations of such. But now we have the internet so some parents 'know better'. Give me a break. Its a rabbit hole of idiocy to try and debate vaccines online. Its not a debate, its a proven and highly effective medicinal methodology.
Its so ridiculous.
Every single post you've made in this thread is declaring how stupid people are if they don't agree with you. Do you think that telling people how stupid they are has any value to society?
Quote: @medaille said:
@ StickyBun said:
We aren't talking about allergies....or the ethics of Pharma....we're talking about freaking vaccines. A tried and true method of basically saving humanity from pandemic diseases and ensuring future generations of such. But now we have the internet so some parents 'know better'. Give me a break. Its a rabbit hole of idiocy to try and debate vaccines online. Its not a debate, its a proven and highly effective medicinal methodology.
Its so ridiculous.
Every single post you've made in this thread is declaring how stupid people are if they don't agree with you. Do you think that telling people how stupid they are has any value to society?
Calling everyone stupid has value now if you want to be the president apparently. Normally I say no it's only boastful and arrogant. We are not in normal times maybe. So fire away everyone.
Quote: @medaille said:
@ StickyBun said:
We aren't talking about allergies....or the ethics of Pharma....we're talking about freaking vaccines. A tried and true method of basically saving humanity from pandemic diseases and ensuring future generations of such. But now we have the internet so some parents 'know better'. Give me a break. Its a rabbit hole of idiocy to try and debate vaccines online. Its not a debate, its a proven and highly effective medicinal methodology.
Its so ridiculous.
Every single post you've made in this thread is declaring how stupid people are if they don't agree with you. Do you think that telling people how stupid they are has any value to society?
When it comes to vaccines, of course. Are you kidding?? We aren't talking the preference of chocolate ice cream to vanilla here. Every single post there is that discusses not vaccinating your kids is idiotic. You can paint with a brush that wide on this topic. As I said, there is no 'other' side to this. There is zero value being polite on this subject.
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