I would really like to ask this without upsetting anyone who likes Bridgewater a lot, but afraid it will be incite some anger..
Why is the affection for Bridgewater so strong? I don't fault anyone for preferring some players over others, but the comments about most other players is usually discussing pretty standard traits - arm strength, win-loss record, etc. But with Bridgewater, people get VERY emotional. Usually, someone likes a player, and it's not much further than, "I wouldn't mind wearing his jersey". A lot of the people who like Teddy, though, are more along the lines of, "I wish he would marry my daughter"...
Honestly, just curious what prompted the commitment in people. I liked the player when we drafted him, but was feeling impatient with his development before his injury and since then have wondered if he even SHOULD risk his health on a football field - never felt the deep faith some people have that Bridgewater is destined for NFL greatness.
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ Norse said:
@ pumpf said:
I'd much rather sign Teddy on a "prove-it" deal... and give him the chance to do so (after signing some other "high risk" player to compete with- like Bradford)... than to sign a "short-term" deal with Cousins- who is ONLY looking to cash in in 3 years (rather than looking for a place to call "home").
Myself I would like to sign Keenum who has no current knee problems. Lead us to the NFC title game, the players respect him, hopefully we could try and give us some stability at QB...at a reasonable cost.
True that he has no knee problems. But he also has nothing in his history to say that this year wasn't a fluke... or that he'll come close to replicating it. And, even if he did, as great as this year was, it's not like Case "carried" the team. If the plan for "winning" means having a stellar defense and a "good enough" offense- sure, Case will do. If the goal is to actually try to win a SB... by pairing a good defense with an offense capable of winning games by itself... then I think we need to do better than Case.
You dont have a year long fluke. A couple of games maybe but not 15.
You dont finish with 22 Tds to 7 Ints as a fluke or consistently have a high QBR as a fluke. The guy earned it.
You can say he didnt carry the team. But how about pointing us to the tier one guy a available that can.
People point to the 6 passes sefenders dropped as further evidnce but all Qbs have defenders drop passes. Thats why they are defenders and not recievers. Even if they caught them he woukd be 22-13, still great numbers.
Keenum didnt lose the the NFCC for us. The defense did when they fell apart. He didnt cause the O line to suddenly stop blocking. Passs protection breaks down then play suffers NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
You guys want a top notch guy to elevate the position then quit bitching and show us an available guy who is proven that he can.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
I would really like to ask this without upsetting anyone who likes Bridgewater a lot, but afraid it will be incite some anger..
Why is the affection for Bridgewater so strong? I don't fault anyone for preferring some players over others, but the comments about most other players is usually discussing pretty standard traits - arm strength, win-loss record, etc. But with Bridgewater, people get VERY emotional. Usually, someone likes a player, and it's not much further than, "I wouldn't mind wearing his jersey". A lot of the people who like Teddy, though, are more along the lines of, "I wish he would marry my daughter"...
Honestly, just curious what prompted the commitment in people. I liked the player when we drafted him, but was feeling impatient with his development before his injury and since then have wondered if he even SHOULD risk his health on a football field - never felt the deep faith some people have that Bridgewater is destined for NFL greatness.
It's an honest question...I love Teddy the kid. He's philanthropic, cares about others, loved by his team-mates, has a history of winning some big games, has proven he can play in the NFL (I didnt say exceedingly so), has shown great resilience in coming-back even to this degree from a gruesome and life-threatening injury.
Just like I would enjoy Les Frazier as my FIL or next door neighbor, that's the kind of person Bridgewater is too. Good people.
I was excited about what year 3 held for Bridgewater in spite of big reservations I had about some key elements of his game. Could he improve from game manager to an aggressive, go after the defense qb? Similar to what Zimmer was asking from him back then too.
But that was a long time ago. I could not (if I was GM) turn the keys over to the kid at this point. Not with 5 plays in 2 years.
It may not "smell like teen spirit" but it sure smells like 08 to me again. A Ferrari of a team just waiting for a qb to drive it over the finish line.
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ Norse said:
@ pumpf said:
I'd much rather sign Teddy on a "prove-it" deal... and give him the chance to do so (after signing some other "high risk" player to compete with- like Bradford)... than to sign a "short-term" deal with Cousins- who is ONLY looking to cash in in 3 years (rather than looking for a place to call "home").
Myself I would like to sign Keenum who has no current knee problems. Lead us to the NFC title game, the players respect him, hopefully we could try and give us some stability at QB...at a reasonable cost.
True that he has no knee problems. But he also has nothing in his history to say that this year wasn't a fluke... or that he'll come close to replicating it. And, even if he did, as great as this year was, it's not like Case "carried" the team. If the plan for "winning" means having a stellar defense and a "good enough" offense- sure, Case will do. If the goal is to actually try to win a SB... by pairing a good defense with an offense capable of winning games by itself... then I think we need to do better than Case.
I thought the team as a whole had good chemistry last season.
We was one game away from getting to the Super Bowl. Your saying we need a new QB to get us to the Super Bowl. Not much else to say.
Hopefully the coaches make the right QB decision.
Quote: @Poiple said:
@ pumpf said:
@ Norse said:
@ pumpf said:
I'd much rather sign Teddy on a "prove-it" deal... and give him the chance to do so (after signing some other "high risk" player to compete with- like Bradford)... than to sign a "short-term" deal with Cousins- who is ONLY looking to cash in in 3 years (rather than looking for a place to call "home").
Myself I would like to sign Keenum who has no current knee problems. Lead us to the NFC title game, the players respect him, hopefully we could try and give us some stability at QB...at a reasonable cost.
True that he has no knee problems. But he also has nothing in his history to say that this year wasn't a fluke... or that he'll come close to replicating it. And, even if he did, as great as this year was, it's not like Case "carried" the team. If the plan for "winning" means having a stellar defense and a "good enough" offense- sure, Case will do. If the goal is to actually try to win a SB... by pairing a good defense with an offense capable of winning games by itself... then I think we need to do better than Case.
You dont have a year long fluke. A couple of games maybe but not 15.
You dont finish with 22 Tds to 7 Ints as a fluke or consistently have a high QBR as a fluke. The guy earned it.
You can say he didnt carry the team. But how about pointing us to the tier one guy a available that can.
People point to the 6 passes sefenders dropped as further evidnce but all Qbs have defenders drop passes. Thats why they are defenders and not recievers. Even if they caught them he woukd be 22-13, still great numbers.
Keenum didnt lose the the NFCC for us. The defense did when they fell apart. He didnt cause the O line to suddenly stop blocking. Passs protection breaks down then play suffers NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
You guys want a top notch guy to elevate the position then quit bitching and show us an available guy who is proven that he can.
Scott Mitchell: 4,338 yards and 32TDs in 1994.
Derek Anderson: 3700 yards and 29 TDs in 2007
Mark Rypien: 3564 yards and 29 TDs (and even won the SB) in 1991
Tommy Maddox (in 13 games): 2800 yards and 20 TDs in 2001
Steve Beurlien for 4436 yards and 36 TDs in 1999
Compared to these 1-hit wonders, Case's stats aren't all that impressive. But- somehow- you are prescient enough to know that Case will be different from all the rest of these QBs. In fact, I coulld probably find a REALLY long list of QBs who have had better seasons that Case's this past season... and I'm sure that there would be plenty of QBs on that list that we wouldn't want to be our "franchise" QBs. But it's obvious that you think your opinion is the only right one... so I'm not going to bother discussing the issue with you anymore. But feel free to continue to tell everyone how stupid they are for doubting Case.
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ Norse said:
@ pumpf said:
I'd much rather sign Teddy on a "prove-it" deal... and give him the chance to do so (after signing some other "high risk" player to compete with- like Bradford)... than to sign a "short-term" deal with Cousins- who is ONLY looking to cash in in 3 years (rather than looking for a place to call "home").
Myself I would like to sign Keenum who has no current knee problems. Lead us to the NFC title game, the players respect him, hopefully we could try and give us some stability at QB...at a reasonable cost.
True that he has no knee problems. But he also has nothing in his history to say that this year wasn't a fluke... or that he'll come close to replicating it. And, even if he did, as great as this year was, it's not like Case "carried" the team. If the plan for "winning" means having a stellar defense and a "good enough" offense- sure, Case will do. If the goal is to actually try to win a SB... by pairing a good defense with an offense capable of winning games by itself... then I think we need to do better than Case.
pumpf, I find your post interesting. I remember reading quite a few posts in 2016 that stated the same thing about Bridgewater. Bridgewater wasn't the main reason the team went 11-5, it was the Defense who was mainly responsible for the success of the team. Take out the name Bridgewater and insert Keenum and it's Groundhog Day the sequel.
Quote: @dadevike said:
Barr is just stating the facts. Maybe Zimmer would have been comfortable turning to Teddy if Case had gone down, but evidently, he was clearly more comfortable turning to Sam.
One is a maybe - because it was just words. The other is certain because it reflects how Zimmer behaved.
If Sam was not available and Case went down, then of course Zimmer would have gone with Teddy. There is no profit in saying that he would have put in Teddy but had no confidence that Teddy could win a game for us.
But why was Zimmer more comfortable going with Sam? People who say this say it like they think that Zimmer/Shurmur liked Bradford as a long term QB best, but I don't see it like that. I see Zimmer being an incredibly risk adverse coach. I see Sam having 2 full years in Shurmur's system, a full offseason as the starting QB, last year they were able to successfully throw Sam in there and be productive on short notice. I also see Bridgewater having happy feet on his first couple of snaps. It seems a no brainer that Sam would be more comfortable in the do or die scenario of the playoffs, but still feel comfortable with Bridgewater if it came to it. Regardless, I think it's a completely different conversation when you are looking at the previous scenario and in discussing who should be the QB in 2018. In 2018, we have a completely different OC, the QB will have a full training camp and preseason to work the kinks out and get the jitters out.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
I would really like to ask this without upsetting anyone who likes Bridgewater a lot, but afraid it will be incite some anger..
Why is the affection for Bridgewater so strong? I don't fault anyone for preferring some players over others, but the comments about most other players is usually discussing pretty standard traits - arm strength, win-loss record, etc. But with Bridgewater, people get VERY emotional. Usually, someone likes a player, and it's not much further than, "I wouldn't mind wearing his jersey". A lot of the people who like Teddy, though, are more along the lines of, "I wish he would marry my daughter"...
Honestly, just curious what prompted the commitment in people. I liked the player when we drafted him, but was feeling impatient with his development before his injury and since then have wondered if he even SHOULD risk his health on a football field - never felt the deep faith some people have that Bridgewater is destined for NFL greatness.
I think you could also say the reverse. Bridgewater brings out the strong emotions from his detractor to the same extent that his supporters feel. I don't consider myself an overly emotional Bridgewater supporter. He'll get his chance somewhere for sure, but I do like him for the Vikings job. All of our QB options are flawed. Bradford is who he is at this point. He's not going to rise too much above his historical performance, which still doesn't include a winning season or real leadership qualities and being injured for 40% of his games. Cousins is a slightly more expensive, moderately better Bradford, without the injury concerns. Keenum seems like he fell into the perfect situation. I think if even a couple more of his risky passes turned in picks like they did in his previous seasons, we'd all be a lot more sour on him. Bridgewater, outside of the knee, I think his biggest issue is lack of opportunity to show what he's capable of. We just don't know how he'd perform in a situation like we had last year or that Carr had before this past year. People get hung up on the deep ball accuracy. That's not a showstopper for me, because I trust him to get that fixed. I like Bridgewater because his floor is a midlevel starting QB with a decent supporting cast, and he's the only QB that has the potential to grow into the QB we all want.
Quote: @"MagnusEugeneHefeweizen" said:
@ pumpf said:
@ Norse said:
@ pumpf said:
I'd much rather sign Teddy on a "prove-it" deal... and give him the chance to do so (after signing some other "high risk" player to compete with- like Bradford)... than to sign a "short-term" deal with Cousins- who is ONLY looking to cash in in 3 years (rather than looking for a place to call "home").
Myself I would like to sign Keenum who has no current knee problems. Lead us to the NFC title game, the players respect him, hopefully we could try and give us some stability at QB...at a reasonable cost.
True that he has no knee problems. But he also has nothing in his history to say that this year wasn't a fluke... or that he'll come close to replicating it. And, even if he did, as great as this year was, it's not like Case "carried" the team. If the plan for "winning" means having a stellar defense and a "good enough" offense- sure, Case will do. If the goal is to actually try to win a SB... by pairing a good defense with an offense capable of winning games by itself... then I think we need to do better than Case.
pumpf, I find your post interesting. I remember reading quite a few posts in 2016 that stated the same thing about Bridgewater. Bridgewater wasn't the main reason the team went 11-5, it was the Defense who was mainly responsible for the success of the team. Take out the name Bridgewater and insert Keenum and it's Groundhog Day the sequel.
Well, to be fair, Case had a much better season last year than Teddy ever had. Yes, Case had better weapons and supporting cast around him...
To me the point is that, with either Case or Teddy, we have a QB who is expected to not lose games for us. If we actually make a run at Cousins, it appears we'd be looking for a QB who could actually win games (i.e. the offense would carry the team once in awhile).
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ Poiple said:
@ pumpf said:
@ Norse said:
@ pumpf said:
I'd much rather sign Teddy on a "prove-it" deal... and give him the chance to do so (after signing some other "high risk" player to compete with- like Bradford)... than to sign a "short-term" deal with Cousins- who is ONLY looking to cash in in 3 years (rather than looking for a place to call "home").
Myself I would like to sign Keenum who has no current knee problems. Lead us to the NFC title game, the players respect him, hopefully we could try and give us some stability at QB...at a reasonable cost.
True that he has no knee problems. But he also has nothing in his history to say that this year wasn't a fluke... or that he'll come close to replicating it. And, even if he did, as great as this year was, it's not like Case "carried" the team. If the plan for "winning" means having a stellar defense and a "good enough" offense- sure, Case will do. If the goal is to actually try to win a SB... by pairing a good defense with an offense capable of winning games by itself... then I think we need to do better than Case.
You dont have a year long fluke. A couple of games maybe but not 15.
You dont finish with 22 Tds to 7 Ints as a fluke or consistently have a high QBR as a fluke. The guy earned it.
You can say he didnt carry the team. But how about pointing us to the tier one guy a available that can.
People point to the 6 passes sefenders dropped as further evidnce but all Qbs have defenders drop passes. Thats why they are defenders and not recievers. Even if they caught them he woukd be 22-13, still great numbers.
Keenum didnt lose the the NFCC for us. The defense did when they fell apart. He didnt cause the O line to suddenly stop blocking. Passs protection breaks down then play suffers NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
You guys want a top notch guy to elevate the position then quit bitching and show us an available guy who is proven that he can.
Scott Mitchell: 4,338 yards and 32TDs in 1994.
Derek Anderson: 3700 yards and 29 TDs in 2007
Mark Rypien: 3564 yards and 29 TDs (and even won the SB) in 1991
Tommy Maddox (in 13 games): 2800 yards and 20 TDs in 2001
Steve Beurlien for 4436 yards and 36 TDs in 1999
Compared to these 1-hit wonders, Case's stats aren't all that impressive. But- somehow- you are prescient enough to know that Case will be different from all the rest of these QBs. In fact, I coulld probably find a REALLY long list of QBs who have had better seasons that Case's this past season... and I'm sure that there would be plenty of QBs on that list that we wouldn't want to be our "franchise" QBs. But it's obvious that you think your opinion is the only right one... so I'm not going to bother discussing the issue with you anymore. But feel free to continue to tell everyone how stupid they are for doubting Case.
I dont see much for evidence to support your point. You obviously feel strongly about it but the information you provided doesnt really say anything.
Statistics is a difficult field but if you look at it logically you can see where your argument needs more support.
You provide yards and TDs for one year. By itself it doesnt mean anything. If you wanted to refute something I had said then you might have used TDs/Ints. I never said anything about yards.
You also only show one year but dont point out any of their other years to supposedly prove that this one year was a fluke. One year doesnt show anything to support your argument.
You also dont show what else had changed that may have lead to a change in the QBs successful year. Coaching changes? Injuries? Perhaps the star running back or WR retired or was traded.
But ignoring all of that.... There are many things go into a team’s success or even a QBs success. Keenum seemed to have landed in a spot that had what he needed to succeed. He had a very good year. Thats no guarentee he will succeed next year. I never said he would. You are the one who claims to be prescient in that he won’t succeed. But I am not a big believer in magic and that all of the QBs caught lightening in a bottle and suddenly lost it. There are always reasons if you have the drive to investigate it. So if you want to use this to actually prove your point you need a lot more information.
Statistically it is most likely that if all other conditions remain the same then his performance should continue. If injuries occur and he loses most of the starting line until they are no longer effective or loses his talented WRs then logic says his play would suffer. But any QB’s play would probably suffer. You would most likely need a tier one QB to minimize the effects of accumulated injuries on the team’s success.
Statistically a fluke is averaged out over time. A fluke is a one time occurance that is eventually negated as the subject returns back to the mean. 15 games is more than enough to have averaged out a fluke performance.
You might be better off to say that enough change has occured that the conditions are no longer in favor of Keenum continuing his success. Perhaps you want to lean on his departing O coordinator and that with the new coordinator he will not be successful. But that means you have to go back to your crystal ball again.
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