Quote: @dadevike said:
On luck: KC identified the guy they wanted, traded up for him, and turned out they were right. Of course, there is still some luck there. If they really knew what Mahomes was going to be, they would have traded all the way up to number 1. A little lucky.
Detroit? They charged the Rams a 1st rounder to take Goff. He was thought to be at best a bridge QB and at worst a salary cap hit. He has turned out to be a legit starting QB. They definitely hit on a bunch of draft picks. But if Goff had sucked, the Lions would still suck.
Chicago? They took Carolina's first round pick so Carolina could get Bryce Young. Nobody thought that would turn into the number 1 overall pick. That is pretty lucky. Maybe Caleb Williams becomes the next Mahomes. But if he becomes the next bust, Chicago will suck for years to come.
SF blew it with Lance and then totally lucked out with Purdy. Even Philly (Hurts in the 2d), Dallas (Prescott in the 4th), and Seattle (Wilson in the 3rd) got lucky. Of course, none of this compares to the luckiest pick of all time: Tom Brady in the 6th. So, yeah, luck is a factor in building a team.
Lots of people criticize the Vikings' competitive rebuild. But there is no guaranteed way to build a SB Champion. The Vikings have been everything from terrible to very good in their history. The one thing they have never been is SB Champs. The Browns sucked for years while trying to build a SB team. Then they traded a ton to Houston and signed a tainted Watson to a huge deal. Still no SB Ring. In Cleveland, the SB is still a hope and a dream. But the dreadful years they and their fans went through are totally real and were totally miserable. The Dolphins tore everything down to rebuild and now have a nice team. Houston traded away Hopkins and Watt and Watson. They were horrible. Now they have their franchise QB. Unfortunately, the Texans, Dolphins, and Browns built their SB teams during the Mahomes era. And they also have to deal with Burrow, Josh Allen, and now Justin Herbert with a real coach. Unlucky.
The SB dream is always out there. But there is no proven formula. So maybe it is best to enjoy the seasons we have. And you can't do that when your team really sucks.
Yeah and you can't hit (luck-out) if you are too afraid to swing.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ smleh said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Havoc1649 said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend.
But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...
Just curious, what's your view of the draft two years ago when the Vikes traded back with both the Lions and Packers? How about the draft picks of Cine and Booth, and your overall feelings of Kwesi? I'm not sure anyone has heard your view points on these topics yet. B)
It's just pointing out the contrast between the two philosophies and we have two organizations within the same division who hit the reset buttons on new front offices at the same time, so you can make a valid comparison. If you are asking me today, which organization did things the wisest and which situation and resources I'd rather have...it would be the Bears all day long. I say this knowing Kwesi has all but been saddled with the competitive mandates of the Wilfs, so you can't blame him completely
Because blowing it up is the key to winning Super Bowls right? Remind me, when did the Chiefs and 49ers do that to have a championship team?
We went 13-4 year one. Our defense got better throughout this year and had Cousins not been injured, we were a SuperBowl contender. We beat the 49ers and were right there with the Chiefs - and this was before our defense improved.
The fact is we carried $46,000,000+ in dead cap this year - which is a rebuild of finances. Even with that, we had a good chance with a healthy Cousins.
If the front office is smart with the money, we can be competitive for a title this year if Cousins is back to himself. The defense is improving. The offense will be little different and has been effective for years. I can’t imagine another year with the same offensive system (that has already won a title) is going to hurt.
Respectfully, doing it the Bears way sounds great now, but they have to hit on nearly every pick to turn it around. That was starting with a team that had already taken 2 top 10 QB’s (pick 10 & 2) in the past couple of years prior to the new leadership. Now they’ll likely go top 10 QB again and pray he’s the answer to a Super Bowl before they are fired. Picks are always awesome and so so smart until they don’t pan out.
I’ll take competitive every year and I have little time for a coach or GM not focused on the same thing. If they are good woth the picks they already have, there should never be a need for such a plan.
The Chiefs hit on Mahomes, and the 49ers haven't had to because Mr Irrelevant has masked their total failure in Trey Lance. Both of those teams have been extremely fortunate and it's not close to the situation the Vikings have been in the last few years, which has been mediocrity and fiddle fucking around on short term deals with Cousins because although they would have liked to move in a different direction, they haven't had any better options. I don't care about 13-4 with a record number of single score victories and losing at home to the Giants on wild card weekend. The reality is our record over the last four seasons is 35-32 with the one playoff appearance losing to the Giants. Thats the definition of mediocrity, so don't tell me what we've been doing has been working while the other teams in the division have all torn it down and rebuilt their rosters with smart trades and smart drafting. I still contend we might have been better off to rebuild this thing when the new front office took over two years ago instead of treading water going nowhere, but oh no....not the Wilfs. Now here we sit with the other teams in the division lapping us, no long term answer at quarterback, and a roster that needs upgrades along both lines, zero running game, the highest paid TE in the league who will miss half of next season on IR and perhaps missing our best player on defense (Hunter). This front office needs to pull their heads out of their asses and make some real moves this offseason and I don't mean Lewis Cine type moves either.
How does Hockenson blowing out his knee indite the front office? Would it be ok if he wasn't one of the highest paid TEs in the league? Just giving you are hard time to be honest, don't take that too seriously.
But I think the answer is somewhat in the middle between your take and Havoc's. There is something to be said about tearing it down to the ground. The risk in doing that is you are 100% reliant on your ability to draft and re-build culture. Ultimately it is easier said than done. On the flip side the "competitive rebuild" is tough since you're trying to ultimately turn things over through mediocrity. While that didn't show through on the field this past season, they actually have accomplished a "rebuild" without tearing it down. They just don't have a top 3-5 pick to show for it.
When you rebuild you ultimately achieve two things at one. 1: High draft pick(s) and 2: Financial freedom. From there you need to fill your premium positions QB, WR, OTs, EDGE, CB, and DT. The Vikings don't possess #1 but do have #2 at this point. They can opt to re-sign Kirk or move up for a QB. If they move up they can draft and EDGE or CB early in the 1st. Flip it around and they trade up for a QB, you can likely sign an EDGE rusher and DT if you so choose. Then come 2025 you have even more money available. My take is, this is the off-season it all begins to either go up or down for this FO/coaching staff. It’s a different approach to roster rebuilding regardless of the Wilf's involvement/asks. But they aren't completely treading water either. Something is about to happen.
So Geoff, are you saying that they will pick a qb in round one for sure if Kirk isn’t back?
I don't think they'd pick a QB just for the point of picking a QB. It would need to be someone they believe in. Obviously I think it would increase the odds. But there is a pathway where they run it back with a stop-gap QB or trade for someone not publicly available.
Is this a hypothesis, or is there a real possible target?
Quote: @CFIAvike said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ smleh said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Havoc1649 said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend.
But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...
Just curious, what's your view of the draft two years ago when the Vikes traded back with both the Lions and Packers? How about the draft picks of Cine and Booth, and your overall feelings of Kwesi? I'm not sure anyone has heard your view points on these topics yet. B)
It's just pointing out the contrast between the two philosophies and we have two organizations within the same division who hit the reset buttons on new front offices at the same time, so you can make a valid comparison. If you are asking me today, which organization did things the wisest and which situation and resources I'd rather have...it would be the Bears all day long. I say this knowing Kwesi has all but been saddled with the competitive mandates of the Wilfs, so you can't blame him completely
Because blowing it up is the key to winning Super Bowls right? Remind me, when did the Chiefs and 49ers do that to have a championship team?
We went 13-4 year one. Our defense got better throughout this year and had Cousins not been injured, we were a SuperBowl contender. We beat the 49ers and were right there with the Chiefs - and this was before our defense improved.
The fact is we carried $46,000,000+ in dead cap this year - which is a rebuild of finances. Even with that, we had a good chance with a healthy Cousins.
If the front office is smart with the money, we can be competitive for a title this year if Cousins is back to himself. The defense is improving. The offense will be little different and has been effective for years. I can’t imagine another year with the same offensive system (that has already won a title) is going to hurt.
Respectfully, doing it the Bears way sounds great now, but they have to hit on nearly every pick to turn it around. That was starting with a team that had already taken 2 top 10 QB’s (pick 10 & 2) in the past couple of years prior to the new leadership. Now they’ll likely go top 10 QB again and pray he’s the answer to a Super Bowl before they are fired. Picks are always awesome and so so smart until they don’t pan out.
I’ll take competitive every year and I have little time for a coach or GM not focused on the same thing. If they are good woth the picks they already have, there should never be a need for such a plan.
The Chiefs hit on Mahomes, and the 49ers haven't had to because Mr Irrelevant has masked their total failure in Trey Lance. Both of those teams have been extremely fortunate and it's not close to the situation the Vikings have been in the last few years, which has been mediocrity and fiddle fucking around on short term deals with Cousins because although they would have liked to move in a different direction, they haven't had any better options. I don't care about 13-4 with a record number of single score victories and losing at home to the Giants on wild card weekend. The reality is our record over the last four seasons is 35-32 with the one playoff appearance losing to the Giants. Thats the definition of mediocrity, so don't tell me what we've been doing has been working while the other teams in the division have all torn it down and rebuilt their rosters with smart trades and smart drafting. I still contend we might have been better off to rebuild this thing when the new front office took over two years ago instead of treading water going nowhere, but oh no....not the Wilfs. Now here we sit with the other teams in the division lapping us, no long term answer at quarterback, and a roster that needs upgrades along both lines, zero running game, the highest paid TE in the league who will miss half of next season on IR and perhaps missing our best player on defense (Hunter). This front office needs to pull their heads out of their asses and make some real moves this offseason and I don't mean Lewis Cine type moves either.
How does Hockenson blowing out his knee indite the front office? Would it be ok if he wasn't one of the highest paid TEs in the league? Just giving you are hard time to be honest, don't take that too seriously.
But I think the answer is somewhat in the middle between your take and Havoc's. There is something to be said about tearing it down to the ground. The risk in doing that is you are 100% reliant on your ability to draft and re-build culture. Ultimately it is easier said than done. On the flip side the "competitive rebuild" is tough since you're trying to ultimately turn things over through mediocrity. While that didn't show through on the field this past season, they actually have accomplished a "rebuild" without tearing it down. They just don't have a top 3-5 pick to show for it.
When you rebuild you ultimately achieve two things at one. 1: High draft pick(s) and 2: Financial freedom. From there you need to fill your premium positions QB, WR, OTs, EDGE, CB, and DT. The Vikings don't possess #1 but do have #2 at this point. They can opt to re-sign Kirk or move up for a QB. If they move up they can draft and EDGE or CB early in the 1st. Flip it around and they trade up for a QB, you can likely sign an EDGE rusher and DT if you so choose. Then come 2025 you have even more money available. My take is, this is the off-season it all begins to either go up or down for this FO/coaching staff. It’s a different approach to roster rebuilding regardless of the Wilf's involvement/asks. But they aren't completely treading water either. Something is about to happen.
So Geoff, are you saying that they will pick a qb in round one for sure if Kirk isn’t back?
I don't think they'd pick a QB just for the point of picking a QB. It would need to be someone they believe in. Obviously I think it would increase the odds. But there is a pathway where they run it back with a stop-gap QB or trade for someone not publicly available.
Is this a hypothesis, or is there a real possible target?
I'm thinking of younger guys with upside;
- Mac Jones, pro bowl as a rookie, zero supporting cast, and is heading into four with his fourth different OC. Supposedly on his way out in New England
- Steelers have been linked to Justin Fields, if that happens, do they move Kenny Pickett?
- Commanders are all but assured of taking a QB. Sam Howell anyone?
- Is Kyler Murray available?
- Derek Carr had a bumpy first your in New Orleans. What happens with him and does he become available?
Quote: I'm thinking of younger guys with upside;
- Mac Jones, pro bowl as a rookie, zero supporting cast, and is heading into four with his fourth different OC. Supposedly on his way out in New England
- Steelers have been linked to Justin Fields, if that happens, do they move Kenny Pickett?
- Commanders are all but assured of taking a QB. Sam Howell anyone?
- Is Kyler Murray available?
- Derek Carr had a bumpy first your in New Orleans. What happens with him and does he become available?
Outside of Kyler Murray, not one of those QBs are worth a draft pick let alone picking up their remaining salary. Derek Carr…. maybe but he’d have to take a huge paycut. The rest are worth league minimum
Does anyone else miss the “triangle of authority”?
Quote: @medaille said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ JR44 said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend.
But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...
And with a great trade they will be taking one of the best QBs to come out in some time with the #1 pick, Poles has taken a lot grief, but the Bears are in really great shape to put together a really exciting young team.
That's the big difference is there was a clear direction and a clear plan to rebuild that roster in Chicago. They took their lumps the last couple years to be in the position they are now, and that's an ascending team with a shit ton of options. They have a football man in place making the decisions and overseeing this rebuild. I would bet anybody that he took the Bears job over ours for these very reasons and not having to deal with the competitive mandates of ownership and we ended up with a analytics stooge with almost zero real football experience. Is what it is...
The Vikings also have a clear plan. It's just the bears were shitty during the rebuild and the vikings were mediocre. If their plan works, great. If it doesn't, it just means they were shitty for a while. I don't think there's any real evidence that would suggest that the Bears plan is really a good one, given they still haven't "ascended" to above .500. The best we can really say about the Bears is that they lucked into the Panthers being so bad that they got the #1 pick, but that hardly feels like a plan going as expected.
Ryan Poles to ESPN;
"We're making strong progress," general manager Ryan Poles said in January. "We're doing it the right way. It's built on a solid foundation. It's not a house of cards."
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ medaille said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ JR44 said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend.
But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...
And with a great trade they will be taking one of the best QBs to come out in some time with the #1 pick, Poles has taken a lot grief, but the Bears are in really great shape to put together a really exciting young team.
That's the big difference is there was a clear direction and a clear plan to rebuild that roster in Chicago. They took their lumps the last couple years to be in the position they are now, and that's an ascending team with a shit ton of options. They have a football man in place making the decisions and overseeing this rebuild. I would bet anybody that he took the Bears job over ours for these very reasons and not having to deal with the competitive mandates of ownership and we ended up with a analytics stooge with almost zero real football experience. Is what it is...
The Vikings also have a clear plan. It's just the bears were shitty during the rebuild and the vikings were mediocre. If their plan works, great. If it doesn't, it just means they were shitty for a while. I don't think there's any real evidence that would suggest that the Bears plan is really a good one, given they still haven't "ascended" to above .500. The best we can really say about the Bears is that they lucked into the Panthers being so bad that they got the #1 pick, but that hardly feels like a plan going as expected.
Ryan Poles to ESPN;
"We're making strong progress," general manager Ryan Poles said in January. "We're doing it the right way. It's built on a solid foundation. It's not a house of cards."
lol. Progress is such a subjective term. Eye of the beholder.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
"We're making strong progress," general manager Ryan Poles said in January. "We're doing it the right way. It's built on a solid foundation. It's not a house of cards."
It's also built on having the number one overall pick in back to back years.
Steve Martin had a joke about how to be a millionaire. First, get a million dollars ...
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ CFIAvike said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ smleh said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Havoc1649 said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend.
But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...
Just curious, what's your view of the draft two years ago when the Vikes traded back with both the Lions and Packers? How about the draft picks of Cine and Booth, and your overall feelings of Kwesi? I'm not sure anyone has heard your view points on these topics yet. B)
I'm thinking of younger guys with upside;
- Mac Jones, pro bowl as a rookie, zero supporting cast, and is heading into four with his fourth different OC. Supposedly on his way out in New England
- Steelers have been linked to Justin Fields, if that happens, do they move Kenny Pickett?
- Commanders are all but assured of taking a QB. Sam Howell anyone?
- Is Kyler Murray available?
- Derek Carr had a bumpy first your in New Orleans. What happens with him and does he become available?
Call me crazy on this one....
Cards have 2 1st's this year, and everyone is thinking they take a WR with their first pick. They don't pick again until the mid 20's I believe....
Do we send them 11 for their later pick and Kyler if one of the "tier 2" QB's fall?
He hasn't exactly blown them away the last few seasons, but has shown that when he has weapons he can be decent.
Getting rid of his cap hit for them would be incentive to take this. Plus they get to start over with a new star WR and QB combo.
We would get a QB with potential and a 1st to build around still this year. The negative is obviously his cap situation and he is only "potential."
I'm not saying I'm for or against this.....
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ CFIAvike said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ smleh said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
How does Hockenson blowing out his knee indite the front office? Would it be ok if he wasn't one of the highest paid TEs in the league? Just giving you are hard time to be honest, don't take that too seriously.
But I think the answer is somewhat in the middle between your take and Havoc's. There is something to be said about tearing it down to the ground. The risk in doing that is you are 100% reliant on your ability to draft and re-build culture. Ultimately it is easier said than done. On the flip side the "competitive rebuild" is tough since you're trying to ultimately turn things over through mediocrity. While that didn't show through on the field this past season, they actually have accomplished a "rebuild" without tearing it down. They just don't have a top 3-5 pick to show for it.
When you rebuild you ultimately achieve two things at one. 1: High draft pick(s) and 2: Financial freedom. From there you need to fill your premium positions QB, WR, OTs, EDGE, CB, and DT. The Vikings don't possess #1 but do have #2 at this point. They can opt to re-sign Kirk or move up for a QB. If they move up they can draft and EDGE or CB early in the 1st. Flip it around and they trade up for a QB, you can likely sign an EDGE rusher and DT if you so choose. Then come 2025 you have even more money available. My take is, this is the off-season it all begins to either go up or down for this FO/coaching staff. It’s a different approach to roster rebuilding regardless of the Wilf's involvement/asks. But they aren't completely treading water either. Something is about to happen.
So Geoff, are you saying that they will pick a qb in round one for sure if Kirk isn’t back?
I don't think they'd pick a QB just for the point of picking a QB. It would need to be someone they believe in. Obviously I think it would increase the odds. But there is a pathway where they run it back with a stop-gap QB or trade for someone not publicly available.
Is this a hypothesis, or is there a real possible target?
I'm thinking of younger guys with upside;
- Mac Jones, pro bowl as a rookie, zero supporting cast, and is heading into four with his fourth different OC. Supposedly on his way out in New England
- Steelers have been linked to Justin Fields, if that happens, do they move Kenny Pickett?
- Commanders are all but assured of taking a QB. Sam Howell anyone?
- Is Kyler Murray available?
- Derek Carr had a bumpy first your in New Orleans. What happens with him and does he become available?
I am seeing the Falcons being the odds favorites to get Fields now, and the line moved alot in just a couple days, what has gotten leaked out there, I thought Cousins to ATL was the steam. Have they soured on Kirk already?
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