Ingram

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@Kentis said:
Dude is an average starter looking for high end starter money. I’m sure some team will swoop in any day now & sign both him & Cook to top market deals to form the next dynamic duo …  :p  

I would say below average. Still, no one is going to be giving Risner big money, so I have no problem with the Vikings bringing him in on a 1-year deal. 

I went back and watched all of Ingram's snaps. He only had about 10-12. One was horrible, one was not very good. I thought the rest were OK. I also watched Brandel. He looked better. If I'm making the call, Brandel starts getting RG1 reps this week. 

Blake Brandel offers versatility up and down Vikings offensive line — and an 'atrocious' Griddy

What was attractive to the Vikings, however, was the way Brandel — a sixth-round draft pick in 2020 — played while Darrisaw — a first-round pick in 2021 — battled injuries.

Brandel played the last 39 offensive snaps in the upset win at Buffalo. He started three games. The Vikings went 2-1.
Not bad for a guy who spent his entire rookie season on the practice squad. Or a guy who spent 2021 as then-coach Mike Zimmer's extra blocking tight end.
Speaking of which, hey Blake, you played 65 snaps that year, most of them reporting in as an eligible receiver. You were targeted zero times in the passing game. Did you ever tell Zim, "Throw me the damn ball?!"
"Ah, no, but I totally agree," he said. "Throw the big man the ball."
Current coach Kevin O'Connell seems to be adding value and perhaps more job stability to Brandel's career this summer. O'Connell has shifted the tackle-sized fella to guard almost exclusively up to this point in camp.
Brandel is listed as Ed Ingram's top backup at right guard on the team's first depth chart. Ingram, the inconsistent incumbent, hasn't won the job yet, as evidenced by the fact he was the only starter on offense who played in last week's preseason opener at Seattle. Brandel, meanwhile, started at left guard and struggled along with the rest of the line.
Brandel says he's better right now on the right side of the line.
"I have an easier time throwing my hands from the right side for some reason," he said.
That's odd for a guy who came into the league as a left tackle. A guy whose 48 consecutive starts at Oregon State — third-most in school history — included 39 straight at left tackle.
"I think what happens is you don't develop the best habits and techniques in college," Brandel said. "Then you come into the league, and they ask you to play on the other side and it changes your brain, and it makes you work on things the right way and you don't develop bad habits."
With only eight offensive linemen active on game days, Brandel's versatility has comforted the coaching staff.
"You need some guys like him on your team," said offensive coordinator Wes Phillips.
Affordable ones, too.
Nose tackle Khyiris Tonga, punter Ryan Wright, safety Camryn Bynum, inside linebacker Brian Asamoah II and running back Ty Chandler are some other key players and/or starters making less than $1 million this season.
Now some questions more suited to Brandel's role as invaluable grunt-worker ...
As an exclusive-rights free agent, was the contract offered to you pretty much a take-it-or-leave-it negotiation?
"Yep," he said. "Pretty much."
Guaranteed money?
"Nope," he said. "Nothing. And that's all right with me. I just want to play football. I'm lucky, blessed to be here. There's no other team I'd rather play for.
"I definitely had impostor syndrome when I first got here. It was like, 'I can't believe I'm here.' I'm looking at Danielle and thinking, 'This is the guy I'm supposed to block?!' Eventually, I realized I am going to get knocked down, but as long as I keep getting back up, staying confident, I know that I belong here."
https://www.startribune.com/minnesota-vikings-blake-brandel-versatility-training-camp-mike-zimmer-mark-craig/600296885/

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@greediron said:

I can tell what is wrong even without listening to it.  Luke Braun is trying to break down tape again.

I grow weary of Braun's tape takes too. But I think he's exactly right on this one. Big mental mistake by Ingram. Bring in Risner if you have to, but that cannot continue to happen. 

Yeah, pretty easy to see that was a mental mistake, likely by Ingram.  It wasn't a physical beating, just didn't try to block him so the protection broke down.

And yes if it was on Ingram that is not a good look.  But wasn't that Schlottman at Center?  So it isn't clear who made that call and who made the mistake.

[Guest]

@greediron said:

@MaroonBells said:

@greediron said:

I can tell what is wrong even without listening to it.  Luke Braun is trying to break down tape again.

I grow weary of Braun's tape takes too. But I think he's exactly right on this one. Big mental mistake by Ingram. Bring in Risner if you have to, but that cannot continue to happen. 

Yeah, pretty easy to see that was a mental mistake, likely by Ingram.  It wasn't a physical beating, just didn't try to block him so the protection broke down.

And yes if it was on Ingram that is not a good look.  But wasn't that Schlottman at Center?  So it isn't clear who made that call and who made the mistake.

The bottom line is we just don't know. It could be that Bradbury would typically call Ingram's assignment and Schlottmann just failed to do that. Hard to say. 

Ingram said in an interview that he was excited about his pass pro in Seattle. I doubt he would say that if he were being brow-beaten by the coaches for his performance. The rest of his snaps were pretty solid. 

Couple things...

https://twitter.com/LukeBraunNFL/status/...70432?s=20 
https://vikingswire.usatoday.com/lists/m...nsistency/

[Guest]

I am worried about Kirk getting injured with the same IOL.  



December 2022

Ed Ingram is 41 of 42 in PFF pass block grading and has given up by far the most pressures and sacks in the NFL for a guard. Can the Vikings let him continue to learn on the job if a high seed in the playoffs is within reach?

Make no mistake, the OL has improved this year with the emergence of Darrisaw as a beast, the steady play of O'Neill, and the adequate play of Cleveland and (surprisingly) Bradbury.
Despite that, the offense still isn't hitting on all cylinders and a big reason is the overall pass blocking. Per Pro Football Reference the Vikings have the 5th highest rate of pressures against the QB, the 7th most hurries, and the 4th most QB hits. Partially as a result, the Vikings have the 2nd lowest "Intended Air Yards" per pass and are relying on play action at the highest rate in the NFL.

[Guest]

@minny65 said:

I am worried about Kirk getting injured with the same IOL.  



December 2022

Ed Ingram is 41 of 42 in PFF pass block grading and has given up by far the most pressures and sacks in the NFL for a guard. Can the Vikings let him continue to learn on the job if a high seed in the playoffs is within reach?

Make no mistake, the OL has improved this year with the emergence of Darrisaw as a beast, the steady play of O'Neill, and the adequate play of Cleveland and (surprisingly) Bradbury.
Despite that, the offense still isn't hitting on all cylinders and a big reason is the overall pass blocking. Per Pro Football Reference the Vikings have the 5th highest rate of pressures against the QB, the 7th most hurries, and the 4th most QB hits. Partially as a result, the Vikings have the 2nd lowest "Intended Air Yards" per pass and are relying on play action at the highest rate in the NFL.

So....it almost sounds like you're saying Ingram was bad last year.  B) 

I'm not going to argue with that, only provide a little context. According to PFF, he was bad, but not as bad as two 1st round guards who were taken ahead of him. We'll see how he does in his 2nd season. I think he improves. If he doesn't, he'll likely be replaced by Brandel, or maybe even Risner. But my money's on Ingram. OK, like a dollar. :-)

The bad thing is that he could be one of those OLs who just take longer to develop. Some do and we don't have time for that. Stringer wasn't really a good right tackle until his 5th season. Bradbury didn't improve much until his 4th season. Ethan Pocic had PFF grades in the 40s (40s!!!) his first three seasons. He just signed an $18M contract with the Browns. 

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@minny65 said:

I am worried about Kirk getting injured with the same IOL.  



December 2022

Ed Ingram is 41 of 42 in PFF pass block grading and has given up by far the most pressures and sacks in the NFL for a guard. Can the Vikings let him continue to learn on the job if a high seed in the playoffs is within reach?

Make no mistake, the OL has improved this year with the emergence of Darrisaw as a beast, the steady play of O'Neill, and the adequate play of Cleveland and (surprisingly) Bradbury.
Despite that, the offense still isn't hitting on all cylinders and a big reason is the overall pass blocking. Per Pro Football Reference the Vikings have the 5th highest rate of pressures against the QB, the 7th most hurries, and the 4th most QB hits. Partially as a result, the Vikings have the 2nd lowest "Intended Air Yards" per pass and are relying on play action at the highest rate in the NFL.

So....it almost sounds like you're saying Ingram was bad last year.  B) 

I'm not going to argue with that, only provide a little context. According to PFF, he was bad, but not as bad as two 1st round guards who were taken ahead of him. We'll see how he does in his 2nd season. I think he improves. If he doesn't, he'll likely be replaced by Brandel, or maybe even Risner. But my money's on Ingram. OK, like a dollar. :-)

The bad thing is that he could be one of those OLs who just take longer to develop. Some do and we don't have time for that. Stringer wasn't really a good right tackle until his 5th season. Bradbury didn't improve much until his 4th season. Ethan Pocic had PFF grades in the 40s (40s!!!) his first three seasons. He just signed an $18M contract with the Browns. 

I expect improvement but how much is really needed by the whole interior to go from Kirk getting hit the 4th most to middle of the pack??  I guess my point is improvement is expected when you are essentially at the bottom.  I'm not sure where he ended up but I read that Ingram was on pace for the most QB pressures by a Guard since they started recording in 2009.  He was on pace for 68 which would have been the record.  I think he ended up with 62/63 so not sure how he ended up.  

[Guest]

@minny65 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@minny65 said:

I am worried about Kirk getting injured with the same IOL.  



December 2022

Ed Ingram is 41 of 42 in PFF pass block grading and has given up by far the most pressures and sacks in the NFL for a guard. Can the Vikings let him continue to learn on the job if a high seed in the playoffs is within reach?

Make no mistake, the OL has improved this year with the emergence of Darrisaw as a beast, the steady play of O'Neill, and the adequate play of Cleveland and (surprisingly) Bradbury.
Despite that, the offense still isn't hitting on all cylinders and a big reason is the overall pass blocking. Per Pro Football Reference the Vikings have the 5th highest rate of pressures against the QB, the 7th most hurries, and the 4th most QB hits. Partially as a result, the Vikings have the 2nd lowest "Intended Air Yards" per pass and are relying on play action at the highest rate in the NFL.

So....it almost sounds like you're saying Ingram was bad last year.  B) 

I'm not going to argue with that, only provide a little context. According to PFF, he was bad, but not as bad as two 1st round guards who were taken ahead of him. We'll see how he does in his 2nd season. I think he improves. If he doesn't, he'll likely be replaced by Brandel, or maybe even Risner. But my money's on Ingram. OK, like a dollar. :-)

The bad thing is that he could be one of those OLs who just take longer to develop. Some do and we don't have time for that. Stringer wasn't really a good right tackle until his 5th season. Bradbury didn't improve much until his 4th season. Ethan Pocic had PFF grades in the 40s (40s!!!) his first three seasons. He just signed an $18M contract with the Browns. 

I expect improvement but how much is really needed by the whole interior to go from Kirk getting hit the 4th most to middle of the pack??  I guess my point is improvement is expected when you are essentially at the bottom.  I'm not sure where he ended up but I read that Ingram was on pace for the most QB pressures by a Guard since they started recording in 2009.  He was on pace for 68 which would have been the record.  I think he ended up with 62/63 so not sure how he ended up.  

Dunno, but I don't think he got there. He improved later in the season. He had four games in a row between week 5 and week 9 where his pass blocking grade was 31, 36, 16 and 48. That has to be some kind of record for ineptitude.

However, after that stretch, his pass blocking grade fell below 50 only once, and he had three games over 70, one over 80. 

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@minny65 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@minny65 said:

I am worried about Kirk getting injured with the same IOL.  



December 2022

Ed Ingram is 41 of 42 in PFF pass block grading and has given up by far the most pressures and sacks in the NFL for a guard. Can the Vikings let him continue to learn on the job if a high seed in the playoffs is within reach?

Make no mistake, the OL has improved this year with the emergence of Darrisaw as a beast, the steady play of O'Neill, and the adequate play of Cleveland and (surprisingly) Bradbury.
Despite that, the offense still isn't hitting on all cylinders and a big reason is the overall pass blocking. Per Pro Football Reference the Vikings have the 5th highest rate of pressures against the QB, the 7th most hurries, and the 4th most QB hits. Partially as a result, the Vikings have the 2nd lowest "Intended Air Yards" per pass and are relying on play action at the highest rate in the NFL.

So....it almost sounds like you're saying Ingram was bad last year.  B) 

I'm not going to argue with that, only provide a little context. According to PFF, he was bad, but not as bad as two 1st round guards who were taken ahead of him. We'll see how he does in his 2nd season. I think he improves. If he doesn't, he'll likely be replaced by Brandel, or maybe even Risner. But my money's on Ingram. OK, like a dollar. :-)

The bad thing is that he could be one of those OLs who just take longer to develop. Some do and we don't have time for that. Stringer wasn't really a good right tackle until his 5th season. Bradbury didn't improve much until his 4th season. Ethan Pocic had PFF grades in the 40s (40s!!!) his first three seasons. He just signed an $18M contract with the Browns. 

I expect improvement but how much is really needed by the whole interior to go from Kirk getting hit the 4th most to middle of the pack??  I guess my point is improvement is expected when you are essentially at the bottom.  I'm not sure where he ended up but I read that Ingram was on pace for the most QB pressures by a Guard since they started recording in 2009.  He was on pace for 68 which would have been the record.  I think he ended up with 62/63 so not sure how he ended up.  

Dunno, but I don't think he got there. He improved later in the season. He had four games in a row between week 5 and week 9 where his pass blocking grade was 31, 36, 16 and 48. That has to be some kind of record for ineptitude.

However, after that stretch, his pass blocking grade fell below 50 only once, and he had three games over 70, one over 80. 

O-linemen often make their biggest jump in improvement in their second year, and Ingram did improve at the end of last year. I think the Vikings are playing him in preseason to see if that was a mirage and to get him more experience. I hope they keep playing him in preseason, and he comes around, because alternatives like Risner in particular seem to be fools gold!

[Guest]

@jargomcfargo said:

@MaroonBells said:

@minny65 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@minny65 said:

I am worried about Kirk getting injured with the same IOL.  



December 2022

Ed Ingram is 41 of 42 in PFF pass block grading and has given up by far the most pressures and sacks in the NFL for a guard. Can the Vikings let him continue to learn on the job if a high seed in the playoffs is within reach?

Make no mistake, the OL has improved this year with the emergence of Darrisaw as a beast, the steady play of O'Neill, and the adequate play of Cleveland and (surprisingly) Bradbury.
Despite that, the offense still isn't hitting on all cylinders and a big reason is the overall pass blocking. Per Pro Football Reference the Vikings have the 5th highest rate of pressures against the QB, the 7th most hurries, and the 4th most QB hits. Partially as a result, the Vikings have the 2nd lowest "Intended Air Yards" per pass and are relying on play action at the highest rate in the NFL.

So....it almost sounds like you're saying Ingram was bad last year.  B) 

I'm not going to argue with that, only provide a little context. According to PFF, he was bad, but not as bad as two 1st round guards who were taken ahead of him. We'll see how he does in his 2nd season. I think he improves. If he doesn't, he'll likely be replaced by Brandel, or maybe even Risner. But my money's on Ingram. OK, like a dollar. :-)

The bad thing is that he could be one of those OLs who just take longer to develop. Some do and we don't have time for that. Stringer wasn't really a good right tackle until his 5th season. Bradbury didn't improve much until his 4th season. Ethan Pocic had PFF grades in the 40s (40s!!!) his first three seasons. He just signed an $18M contract with the Browns. 

I expect improvement but how much is really needed by the whole interior to go from Kirk getting hit the 4th most to middle of the pack??  I guess my point is improvement is expected when you are essentially at the bottom.  I'm not sure where he ended up but I read that Ingram was on pace for the most QB pressures by a Guard since they started recording in 2009.  He was on pace for 68 which would have been the record.  I think he ended up with 62/63 so not sure how he ended up.  

Dunno, but I don't think he got there. He improved later in the season. He had four games in a row between week 5 and week 9 where his pass blocking grade was 31, 36, 16 and 48. That has to be some kind of record for ineptitude.

However, after that stretch, his pass blocking grade fell below 50 only once, and he had three games over 70, one over 80. 

O-linemen often make their biggest jump in improvement in their second year, and Ingram did improve at the end of last year. I think the Vikings are playing him in preseason to see if that was a mirage and to get him more experience. I hope they keep playing him in preseason, and he comes around, because alternatives like Risner in particular seem to be fools gold!

I think Risner would mean about a third the hits on Kirk coming from that position and I consider that a huge upgrade for a team that is going to be pass happy.  I really don't think Ingram is going to improve that much.  Risner is going into his 5th year and is still young and healthy.  I hope we have his phone number as preseason progresses and see more of Ingram.  

"The former Bronco allowed 29 pressures in 2022, Ingram allowed 58, and Cleveland 53. He also allowed only 6 QB hits, the two Vikes combined for 38. Similar to what his scouting report said coming out of college, he is still a great pass-blocker. Considering Minnesota’s pass-heavy offense that came with Kevin O’Connell, their passing percentage was third in the league; having good pass-blockers should be something to strive for.
According to PFF, no player allowed more QB hits than Cleveland in 2022. He also ranked fourth-worst in pressures allowed. His counterpart Ed Ingram has been even worse as he allowed the most sacks, second-most hits, and the most pressures, not just on the team, in the whole league. Risner would certainly be an upgrade over Cleveland and Ingram, especially in pass protection. Why he is still available is a mystery."/

[Guest]

@minny65 said:

@jargomcfargo said:

@MaroonBells said:

@minny65 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@minny65 said:

I am worried about Kirk getting injured with the same IOL.  



December 2022

Ed Ingram is 41 of 42 in PFF pass block grading and has given up by far the most pressures and sacks in the NFL for a guard. Can the Vikings let him continue to learn on the job if a high seed in the playoffs is within reach?

Make no mistake, the OL has improved this year with the emergence of Darrisaw as a beast, the steady play of O'Neill, and the adequate play of Cleveland and (surprisingly) Bradbury.
Despite that, the offense still isn't hitting on all cylinders and a big reason is the overall pass blocking. Per Pro Football Reference the Vikings have the 5th highest rate of pressures against the QB, the 7th most hurries, and the 4th most QB hits. Partially as a result, the Vikings have the 2nd lowest "Intended Air Yards" per pass and are relying on play action at the highest rate in the NFL.

So....it almost sounds like you're saying Ingram was bad last year.  B) 

I'm not going to argue with that, only provide a little context. According to PFF, he was bad, but not as bad as two 1st round guards who were taken ahead of him. We'll see how he does in his 2nd season. I think he improves. If he doesn't, he'll likely be replaced by Brandel, or maybe even Risner. But my money's on Ingram. OK, like a dollar. :-)

The bad thing is that he could be one of those OLs who just take longer to develop. Some do and we don't have time for that. Stringer wasn't really a good right tackle until his 5th season. Bradbury didn't improve much until his 4th season. Ethan Pocic had PFF grades in the 40s (40s!!!) his first three seasons. He just signed an $18M contract with the Browns. 

I expect improvement but how much is really needed by the whole interior to go from Kirk getting hit the 4th most to middle of the pack??  I guess my point is improvement is expected when you are essentially at the bottom.  I'm not sure where he ended up but I read that Ingram was on pace for the most QB pressures by a Guard since they started recording in 2009.  He was on pace for 68 which would have been the record.  I think he ended up with 62/63 so not sure how he ended up.  

Dunno, but I don't think he got there. He improved later in the season. He had four games in a row between week 5 and week 9 where his pass blocking grade was 31, 36, 16 and 48. That has to be some kind of record for ineptitude.

However, after that stretch, his pass blocking grade fell below 50 only once, and he had three games over 70, one over 80. 

O-linemen often make their biggest jump in improvement in their second year, and Ingram did improve at the end of last year. I think the Vikings are playing him in preseason to see if that was a mirage and to get him more experience. I hope they keep playing him in preseason, and he comes around, because alternatives like Risner in particular seem to be fools gold!

I think Risner would mean about a third the hits on Kirk coming from that position and I consider that a huge upgrade for a team that is going to be pass happy.  I really don't think Ingram is going to improve that much.  Risner is going into his 5th year and is still young and healthy.  I hope we have his phone number as preseason progresses and see more of Ingram.  

"The former Bronco allowed 29 pressures in 2022, Ingram allowed 58, and Cleveland 53. He also allowed only 6 QB hits, the two Vikes combined for 38. Similar to what his scouting report said coming out of college, he is still a great pass-blocker. Considering Minnesota’s pass-heavy offense that came with Kevin O’Connell, their passing percentage was third in the league; having good pass-blockers should be something to strive for.
According to PFF, no player allowed more QB hits than Cleveland in 2022. He also ranked fourth-worst in pressures allowed. His counterpart Ed Ingram has been even worse as he allowed the most sacks, second-most hits, and the most pressures, not just on the team, in the whole league. Risner would certainly be an upgrade over Cleveland and Ingram, especially in pass protection. Why he is still available is a mystery."/

I think Risner wants more money than he's worth. He's just not that good.

I agree that Risner would likely eliminate many of the IOL leaks. He's a pretty good pass protector. Easily better than Ingram was last year. However, he's a downgrade as a run blocker. Plus, I think the odds of Ingram in his 2nd season improving to around the level Risner was at last year are decent.

I think that's the debate the Vikings are probably having. They obviously want to improve Kirk's protection. That's why they brought in Risner in the first place. But the best way to improve his protection, while not downgrading the run blocking, isn't abundantly clear. We'll see how Ingram does in practices against the Titans and then in the game. 

I wouldn't be too surprised to see the Vikings put Brandel there over signing Risner.