Cousins has always proven himself. He’s ready to do it again.

[Guest]

Without circling the drain on Kirk even further since we all have our opinions, I got to thinking— how many tenured QBs have actually changed their reputation over the course of their careers?

Recently, Stafford comes to mind but then he got hurt immediately after and now the Rams are a mess.

Russell Wilson and Carson Wentz kind of did, but in a bad way.

The best example I can think of is Eli Manning, and he did it by winning a couple rings. 

For Kirk he’ll always be polarizing for some but I really think the only way the narrative for the majority of folks will change is if he wins a Super Bowl, whether in MIN or elsewhere.

But maybe I’m forgetting some other examples?

[Guest]

@pattersaur said:
Without circling the drain on Kirk even further since we all have our opinions, I got to thinking— how many tenured QBs have actually changed their reputation over the course of their careers?

Recently, Stafford comes to mind but then he got hurt immediately after and now the Rams are a mess.

Russell Wilson and Carson Wentz kind of did, but in a bad way.

The best example I can think of is Eli Manning, and he did it by winning a couple rings. 

For Kirk he’ll always be polarizing for some but I really think the only way the narrative for the majority of folks will change is if he wins a Super Bowl, whether in MIN or elsewhere.

But maybe I’m forgetting some other examples?

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@Riphawkins said:

@purplefaithful said:

@StickyBun said:
The guy has an amazing attitude. Oozes leadership. Yet half the fanbase dislikes the guy. Its so weird. 

Only one way to quiet haters....

Did San Diego fans hate Dan Fouts as much as Vikings fan hate Kirk? How about Warren Moon? How many fans and experts disrespected him as much Kirk gets disrespected?

I think more than anything the difference is with social media, which didn't exist back in the days of Fouts and Moon.

Whether it's football, politics or culture wars, our social media feeds on Facebook, Twitter, even Google, are designed to push into "sides" or "camps" and keep us there. 

For sure, many of the narratives written about Kirk in the past were just myths: "He's a check down Charlie who doesn't go deep." False, and always has been. Statistics show he's not only a good deep passer, but one of the best. "His stats are built in garbage time." Statistics show this also was demonstrably false. 

But there were also narratives that even I believed to be mostly true. "He's not a leader; he's not clutch; he doesn't win; he's too risk averse." Winning is not a QB stat in my book, but the leader and risk averse thing were always my biggest complaints about Kirk. 

I don't know that a QB has ever defeated narratives more convincingly than Kirk defeated these in '22. Under KOC's guidance, he became a much more vocal leader, he was uber-clutch, he was much less risk averse, and he won. A lot.

So I think we're out of narratives now. And I can see the Haters clinging onto each other, all perched on a tiny ledge called contract and age.  It's all that's left. 

I'm far from a hater. I loved the signing at the time as he was by far the best QB available to us. But, you've left one of the bigger narratives & it still holds true. He's not a mobile QB that can extend plays w/ his feet. In today's NFL, offenses w/ mobile QBs have an advantage over offenses that don't. 

[Guest]

@pattersaur said:
Without circling the drain on Kirk even further since we all have our opinions, I got to thinking— how many tenured QBs have actually changed their reputation over the course of their careers?

Recently, Stafford comes to mind but then he got hurt immediately after and now the Rams are a mess.

Russell Wilson and Carson Wentz kind of did, but in a bad way.

The best example I can think of is Eli Manning, and he did it by winning a couple rings. 

For Kirk he’ll always be polarizing for some but I really think the only way the narrative for the majority of folks will change is if he wins a Super Bowl, whether in MIN or elsewhere.

But maybe I’m forgetting some other examples?

I think winning a Super Bowl would help a lot, but it didn't really help Eli. He's still not considered one of the better QBs from that era, despite the fact that he won 2 Super Bowls and was MVP of both. 

Eli just wasn't really that good during his career, or even in either of their Super Bowl seasons. The season after which he won his first Super Bowl, he threw 23 TDs and 20 picks. Had a 73.0 passer rating. That has to have broken some kind of record. His second Super Bowl season, he threw 29 TDs and 16 INTs. Much better, but still worse than Cousins' worst year ever. Plus, Manning could be just horrible at times. In 2013, his 10th year in the league, he threw 18 TDs and 27 INTs! 

I think if Cousins wins a Super Bowl all of his very good stats will resonate more. A good example is the Giants playoff game. No QB had a better playoff game than Cousins. Not Mahomes, not Allen, not Burrow, not Hurts. But because our defense was horrible, we lost the game, and so it goes unnoticed. 

[Guest]

@Knucklehead said:

@MaroonBells said:

@Riphawkins said:

@purplefaithful said:

@StickyBun said:
The guy has an amazing attitude. Oozes leadership. Yet half the fanbase dislikes the guy. Its so weird. 

Only one way to quiet haters....

Did San Diego fans hate Dan Fouts as much as Vikings fan hate Kirk? How about Warren Moon? How many fans and experts disrespected him as much Kirk gets disrespected?

I think more than anything the difference is with social media, which didn't exist back in the days of Fouts and Moon.

Whether it's football, politics or culture wars, our social media feeds on Facebook, Twitter, even Google, are designed to push into "sides" or "camps" and keep us there. 

For sure, many of the narratives written about Kirk in the past were just myths: "He's a check down Charlie who doesn't go deep." False, and always has been. Statistics show he's not only a good deep passer, but one of the best. "His stats are built in garbage time." Statistics show this also was demonstrably false. 

But there were also narratives that even I believed to be mostly true. "He's not a leader; he's not clutch; he doesn't win; he's too risk averse." Winning is not a QB stat in my book, but the leader and risk averse thing were always my biggest complaints about Kirk. 

I don't know that a QB has ever defeated narratives more convincingly than Kirk defeated these in '22. Under KOC's guidance, he became a much more vocal leader, he was uber-clutch, he was much less risk averse, and he won. A lot.

So I think we're out of narratives now. And I can see the Haters clinging onto each other, all perched on a tiny ledge called contract and age.  It's all that's left. 

I'm far from a hater. I loved the signing at the time as he was by far the best QB available to us. But, you've left one of the bigger narratives & it still holds true. He's not a mobile QB that can extend plays w/ his feet. In today's NFL, offenses w/ mobile QBs have an advantage over offenses that don't. 

Fair enough. But again, I'm all for drafting more mobile, and cheaper, QBs who will eventually replace Cousins. Just wish folks would appreciate just how good he's been in the face of ridiculous, and mostly false, criticisms leveled at him. 

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@comet52 said:

@1VikesFan said:

@comet52 said:

@Riphawkins said:

@purplefaithful said:

@StickyBun said:
The guy has an amazing attitude. Oozes leadership. Yet half the fanbase dislikes the guy. Its so weird. 

Only one way to quiet haters....

Did San Diego fans hate Dan Fouts as much as Vikings fan hate Kirk? How about Warren Moon? How many fans and experts disrespected him as much Kirk gets disrespected?

Those guys are in the HOF, a place Kirk and his .500 career of checking it down on 3rd and long will never be.  Maybe you should have gone balls to the wall and compared him to Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes instead.  =)

Can't speak for Riphawkins but it's possible that the Fouts and Moon comparisons were due to all their Super Bowl successes.

I'm sure the HOF qbs who never won a SB would have a good chuckle at being told they are comps for Kirk Cousins.

The comp for Kirk is Jay Cutler, not guys in the HOF.

Jay Cutler in 11 seasons as a starter:
3,048 for 4,920 for a 62 completion percentage, 35,133 yards, 227 TDs and 160 INTs, QB rating: 85.3
Kirk Cousins in three fewer seasons as a starter:
3,249 for 4,866 for a 66.8 completion percentage, 37,140 yards, 252 TDs and 105 INTs, QB rating: 97.8
Cousins career completion percentage (among QBs with over 100 games) ranks 2nd only to Drew Brees in NFL history, ahead of both Moon and Fouts. Cutler ranks 24th. And before you argue “checkdown,”  in yards per attempt, Cousins ranks 3rd in NFL history. Cutler isn’t even in the top 50. 

In passer rating, Cousins ranks 4th in NFL history, ahead of both Fouts and Moon. Cutler ranks 28th, just below Trent Green and Jeff Garcia. 

Jay Cutler’s best year was 2008. He went to the Pro Bowl that year. He went 384 for 616, for a 62.3 percentage, threw 25 TDs and 18 INTs, for an 86.0 rating. Culter also had several seasons where his TD/INT ratio looked like this: 19/14, 27/26, 20/14, 28/18. 

Cousins never had a seasons anywhere near that bad. In fact, statistically, his WORST year as a starter was last season, his 1st season in KOC's offense. He went 424 for 643, for a 65.9 percentage, threw 29 TDs and 14 INTs for a 92.5 rating, far better than Culter’s best season ever.

But yeah, good comp. 

You could meet Kirk at the HOF front door and buy his ticket for him.  Invite Jay Cutler along and make a 3 Amigos day of it! =)

[Guest]

@StickyBun said:

@comet52 said:

@1VikesFan said:

@comet52 said:

@1VikesFan said:

@comet52 said:

@Riphawkins said:

@purplefaithful said:

@StickyBun said:
The guy has an amazing attitude. Oozes leadership. Yet half the fanbase dislikes the guy. Its so weird. 

Only one way to quiet haters....

Did San Diego fans hate Dan Fouts as much as Vikings fan hate Kirk? How about Warren Moon? How many fans and experts disrespected him as much Kirk gets disrespected?

Those guys are in the HOF, a place Kirk and his .500 career of checking it down on 3rd and long will never be.  Maybe you should have gone balls to the wall and compared him to Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes instead.  =)

Can't speak for Riphawkins but it's possible that the Fouts and Moon comparisons were due to all their Super Bowl successes.

I'm sure the HOF qbs who never won a SB would have a good chuckle at being told they are comps for Kirk Cousins.

The comp for Kirk is Jay Cutler, not guys in the HOF.

Ok then 

Are you saying Kirk will get in the HOF?

He could actually get in...if he buys a ticket at the front door like the rest of the tourists.  :p

This isn't about Kirk being a HOF QB......my original point was even a HOF QB, like Marino, didn't win a Superbowl. Because the negs in the thread put that as the bar: Superbowl trophies. So Marino was an epic failure then.

I would never set the bar for Kirk at SB trophies, and shame on those who do. You can't go setting goals for guys that they will never achieve, it's just not fair!

[Guest]

@purplefaithful said:

@pattersaur said:
Without circling the drain on Kirk even further since we all have our opinions, I got to thinking— how many tenured QBs have actually changed their reputation over the course of their careers?

Recently, Stafford comes to mind but then he got hurt immediately after and now the Rams are a mess.

Russell Wilson and Carson Wentz kind of did, but in a bad way.

The best example I can think of is Eli Manning, and he did it by winning a couple rings. 

For Kirk he’ll always be polarizing for some but I really think the only way the narrative for the majority of folks will change is if he wins a Super Bowl, whether in MIN or elsewhere.

But maybe I’m forgetting some other examples?

Lol.  Cousins is no Elway.  Elway was a beast, taking teams that had no business deep into the playoffs.  

[Guest]

@Skodin said:

@purplefaithful said:

@pattersaur said:
Without circling the drain on Kirk even further since we all have our opinions, I got to thinking— how many tenured QBs have actually changed their reputation over the course of their careers?

Recently, Stafford comes to mind but then he got hurt immediately after and now the Rams are a mess.

Russell Wilson and Carson Wentz kind of did, but in a bad way.

The best example I can think of is Eli Manning, and he did it by winning a couple rings. 

For Kirk he’ll always be polarizing for some but I really think the only way the narrative for the majority of folks will change is if he wins a Super Bowl, whether in MIN or elsewhere.

But maybe I’m forgetting some other examples?

Lol.  Cousins is no Elway.  Elway was a beast, taking teams that had no business deep into the playoffs.  

@Skodin said:

@purplefaithful said:

@pattersaur said:
Without circling the drain on Kirk even further since we all have our opinions, I got to thinking— how many tenured QBs have actually changed their reputation over the course of their careers?

Recently, Stafford comes to mind but then he got hurt immediately after and now the Rams are a mess.

Russell Wilson and Carson Wentz kind of did, but in a bad way.

The best example I can think of is Eli Manning, and he did it by winning a couple rings. 

For Kirk he’ll always be polarizing for some but I really think the only way the narrative for the majority of folks will change is if he wins a Super Bowl, whether in MIN or elsewhere.

But maybe I’m forgetting some other examples?

Lol.  Cousins is no Elway.  Elway was a beast, taking teams that had no business deep into the playoffs.  

[Guest]

@Skodin said:

@purplefaithful said:

@pattersaur said:
Without circling the drain on Kirk even further since we all have our opinions, I got to thinking— how many tenured QBs have actually changed their reputation over the course of their careers?

Recently, Stafford comes to mind but then he got hurt immediately after and now the Rams are a mess.

Russell Wilson and Carson Wentz kind of did, but in a bad way.

The best example I can think of is Eli Manning, and he did it by winning a couple rings. 

For Kirk he’ll always be polarizing for some but I really think the only way the narrative for the majority of folks will change is if he wins a Super Bowl, whether in MIN or elsewhere.

But maybe I’m forgetting some other examples?

Lol.  Cousins is no Elway.  Elway was a beast, taking teams that had no business deep into the playoffs.  

Elway was a dual threat QB and eventually a pretty good passer too. But his first 10 years in the league he wasn't good at all. He threw 158 TDs and 157 INTs until his 11th season (age 33), at which point he put together 6 very good seasons between age 33 and 38. Up until that point, he'd never once completed more than 59% of his passes. Cousins never once had a completion percentage lower than that. 

During Elway's prime, between the ages of 28 and 32, he threw 73 TDs and 80 INTs. Elway's career passer rating is 79.9. Cousins is 97.8. Over his career, Elway averaged 2.5 game-winning drives per season (the thing he's known for). Cousins has averaged 3.4 (the thing he gets knocked for). 

Yes, Elway went to 5 Super Bowls. Cousins hasn't been to any. Elway's stats in those Super Bowls: 3 TDs and 8 INTs. His passer rating is an historically bad 59.3. His stats in his first Super Bowl VICTORY over the Packers was 12 for 22, 124 yards, 0 TDs and 1 INT for a passer rating of 51.9. Historically bad, but better than his previous Super Bowl passer rating (19.4), and the one before that (36.8).

Why didn't Elway get hammered the way Cousins does? He did actually. I lived here. The narrative for many years here in Denver was that Elway would never win a Super Bowl. And then he did. Because Terrell Davis. Also, Elway's defensive rankings in his five Super Bowl seasons: 11, 5, 3, 9, 9. Cousins defensive rankings over his 5 seasons in Minnesota: 4, 14, 27, 30 and 31.