Quote: @mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ PurplePastor said:
@ AGRforever said:
$37.5/yr average on Carrs 4yr deal.
That's kind of an ouch or am I outdated on my assessment?
It puts him behind Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Kyler Murray, Deshaun Watson, and Dak who all signed recent extensions. It's just in front of Cousins in terms of AAV.
Like Greylock said, it's probably a bargain when considering the average annual salary and guarantees compared to some of the other young QBs and formerly elite vets who signed extensions in the past year.
puts him at 9th in terms of avg annual. thats about where he should be IMO in terms of money.
I would put Kirk in right around there as well in terms of pay vs production. IMO Kirk has the better arm talent, but Carr has the edge in terms of pocket awareness and mobility, as well as off script plays from the little I have seen of him the last couple years.
I think both of these guys should be ahead of some of those guys making more per year, but there just isnt any value in those other guys at their numbers. Wilson, Murray, Watson, Stafford, and Prescott would all be paid less than these two if I was writing the checks, for one reason or another. Possibly not Watson, but I didnt really get a chance to watch him at the end of the year to see how he came back.
Cousins and Carr have almost identical numbers as far as rushing with Kirk actually with a few more attempts. In every throwing category Cousins is ahead of Carr.
As far as extending Cousins, the market is set, by the likes of Carr, Murray, Prescott, and Stafford. I don't think there's a chance Cousins signs for less than 39-40 mill per, knowing that in 2 years guys like Herbert, Lawrence, Lawrence, Hurts, and who knows who else will be inking deals way beyond his, as the cap gets fatter.
Then I move on, I dont care what other teams do, anything more than what Carr got is overpaying for the results we get. Time to find our own QB. You've written many times here that we need to draft our QB of the future. I agree we should be trying to do that. You've also said that you wouldn't throw a rookie QB into the fire and ruin him and we'll need a bridge. So, how much draft capital do we intend to spend on this QB this year to ensure we don't end up with the the next Zach Wilson, Blaine Gabbert, Blake Bortles, Jake Locker, Marcus Mariota, Jamis Winston? Of course, our 31st rated defense needs help at every position group, we need at least 1 more interior O-lineman, and will probably have to replace Theilen and Cook. Only 4 picks, no 2nd rounder. How many future firsts are we willing to mortgage to get our guy?
As Rich Eisen mentioned yesterday, there is no such thing as moderately priced QB market. When Geno Smith, year off the trash heap is awarded 105 mil 3 yr. contract, proves the point. Signing a bridge "starter", that might not get you through the year, is still going to cost 30 mil, and will be a major drop off from our current production.
We have a choice of either drafting over and over until we find the unicorn, paying below market value for 5 yrs. or paying market value for a proven entity. I don't know if there's a right answer.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...5-million/
I do know that over paying for a product rarely ends up with the results you hope. I hear all the time that "its a business" when these players use every leverage they can to make every dime they can, but how many businesses succeed long term by over paying their upper staff, and letting quality suffer as a result? We have parts of our team that merit top tier money, we have parts that merit middle ground money, and parts that merit less, when you over pay, even by a few %, it will have affects on on other positions skill levels. I dont think we compete this coming year, just as I said we wouldnt be in the running last year and we really werent, KC is under contract for 23, so why would we have to do anything this year? As I've said, my first move would be to try and trade him for draft capital and maybe a QB prospect like one of the 2 in San Fran. I would still like to add another QB prospect if we dont retain Mullens, and I would look to sign a guy that can come in and help mentor these young guys as well as take a year of QB1 snaps. Even if that guy only saves us 10 million over KC, that 10 million that could be used on upgrade at the C position or one of the countless defensive spots. I just dont see the future with KC, so its time to get off that train, either immediately through a trade, or by letting him walk after next year and netting that compensatory pick, the only way I see him as a viable QB worth extending is on a very very team friendly deal that would still allow cap space for other positions ( like Brady did that lead to a handful of SB rings for himself.)
The cap can be manipulated yes, but in the end, it is a number that has to be factored in, either now or down the road, by pushing todays expenses into future years, sure you created more space for the now, but you have shorted yourself in the future, so is it really wise to keep dumping more debt into future years ( when you may actually have a team worth going all in with ) or would that money be better used to fortify a roster that is SB ready in a year or two? I maintain, build the roster first, then break the cap to get over the hump.
Quote: @pattersaur said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ PurplePastor said:
@ AGRforever said:
$37.5/yr average on Carrs 4yr deal.
That's kind of an ouch or am I outdated on my assessment?
It puts him behind Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Kyler Murray, Deshaun Watson, and Dak who all signed recent extensions. It's just in front of Cousins in terms of AAV.
Like Greylock said, it's probably a bargain when considering the average annual salary and guarantees compared to some of the other young QBs and formerly elite vets who signed extensions in the past year.
puts him at 9th in terms of avg annual. thats about where he should be IMO in terms of money.
I would put Kirk in right around there as well in terms of pay vs production. IMO Kirk has the better arm talent, but Carr has the edge in terms of pocket awareness and mobility, as well as off script plays from the little I have seen of him the last couple years.
I think both of these guys should be ahead of some of those guys making more per year, but there just isnt any value in those other guys at their numbers. Wilson, Murray, Watson, Stafford, and Prescott would all be paid less than these two if I was writing the checks, for one reason or another. Possibly not Watson, but I didnt really get a chance to watch him at the end of the year to see how he came back.
Cousins and Carr have almost identical numbers as far as rushing with Kirk actually with a few more attempts. In every throwing category Cousins is ahead of Carr.
As far as extending Cousins, the market is set, by the likes of Carr, Murray, Prescott, and Stafford. I don't think there's a chance Cousins signs for less than 39-40 mill per, knowing that in 2 years guys like Herbert, Lawrence, Lawrence, Hurts, and who knows who else will be inking deals way beyond his, as the cap gets fatter.
Then I move on, I dont care what other teams do, anything more than what Carr got is overpaying for the results we get. Time to find our own QB. You've written many times here that we need to draft our QB of the future. I agree we should be trying to do that. You've also said that you wouldn't throw a rookie QB into the fire and ruin him and we'll need a bridge. So, how much draft capital do we intend to spend on this QB this year to ensure we don't end up with the the next Zach Wilson, Blaine Gabbert, Blake Bortles, Jake Locker, Marcus Mariota, Jamis Winston? Of course, our 31st rated defense needs help at every position group, we need at least 1 more interior O-lineman, and will probably have to replace Theilen and Cook. Only 4 picks, no 2nd rounder. How many future firsts are we willing to mortgage to get our guy?
As Rich Eisen mentioned yesterday, there is no such thing as moderately priced QB market. When Geno Smith, year off the trash heap is awarded 105 mil 3 yr. contract, proves the point. Signing a bridge "starter", that might not get you through the year, is still going to cost 30 mil, and will be a major drop off from our current production.
We have a choice of either drafting over and over until we find the unicorn, paying below market value for 5 yrs. or paying market value for a proven entity. I don't know if there's a right answer.
This is a very fair point and it's why it's unfortunate the Vikings put themselves in this situation. So many things they could have done differently over the years to avoid it. Off the top of my head:
1. Rick not neglecting the backup QB position for a decade.
(^by far the most egregious offense)
2. Not beating the Bears offer and trading up for Fields. I really think this would have saved Rick's job, had he done it.
3. Getting better value from our first round trade back last year.
4. Not trading for Hockenson at all (Very good player but what hump did he put us over? Hopefully going forward he will.)
We'll have to see how the draft shakes out but I think Levis is worth trading up for if he slips a little. Bears moved from I think 21 to 12 and it cost them a future first and change. That's a palatable cost if the Vikings think he's the guy. Would I advocate burning multiple firsts to jump into the top 5? That's much scarier. If it works you're a genius. If not KAM is back to stock broking. I don't think the Vikings will take that big of a swing and I don't blame them for not wanting to. But we need something. Hooker might be the move.
I think its a simple premise:
1). If there is someone there they love? Have conviction and make the move
2). There is (imo) not huge pressure to draft someone this year vs next
3). Moving into top 5 would be prohibitive (see pt 1). I can maybe see them make a move into that 8-12 range tops
4). I think there will be a crazy run on QB's the top 8 picks
Quote: @pattersaur said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ PurplePastor said:
@ AGRforever said:
$37.5/yr average on Carrs 4yr deal.
That's kind of an ouch or am I outdated on my assessment?
It puts him behind Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Kyler Murray, Deshaun Watson, and Dak who all signed recent extensions. It's just in front of Cousins in terms of AAV.
Like Greylock said, it's probably a bargain when considering the average annual salary and guarantees compared to some of the other young QBs and formerly elite vets who signed extensions in the past year.
puts him at 9th in terms of avg annual. thats about where he should be IMO in terms of money.
I would put Kirk in right around there as well in terms of pay vs production. IMO Kirk has the better arm talent, but Carr has the edge in terms of pocket awareness and mobility, as well as off script plays from the little I have seen of him the last couple years.
I think both of these guys should be ahead of some of those guys making more per year, but there just isnt any value in those other guys at their numbers. Wilson, Murray, Watson, Stafford, and Prescott would all be paid less than these two if I was writing the checks, for one reason or another. Possibly not Watson, but I didnt really get a chance to watch him at the end of the year to see how he came back.
Cousins and Carr have almost identical numbers as far as rushing with Kirk actually with a few more attempts. In every throwing category Cousins is ahead of Carr.
As far as extending Cousins, the market is set, by the likes of Carr, Murray, Prescott, and Stafford. I don't think there's a chance Cousins signs for less than 39-40 mill per, knowing that in 2 years guys like Herbert, Lawrence, Lawrence, Hurts, and who knows who else will be inking deals way beyond his, as the cap gets fatter.
Then I move on, I dont care what other teams do, anything more than what Carr got is overpaying for the results we get. Time to find our own QB. You've written many times here that we need to draft our QB of the future. I agree we should be trying to do that. You've also said that you wouldn't throw a rookie QB into the fire and ruin him and we'll need a bridge. So, how much draft capital do we intend to spend on this QB this year to ensure we don't end up with the the next Zach Wilson, Blaine Gabbert, Blake Bortles, Jake Locker, Marcus Mariota, Jamis Winston? Of course, our 31st rated defense needs help at every position group, we need at least 1 more interior O-lineman, and will probably have to replace Theilen and Cook. Only 4 picks, no 2nd rounder. How many future firsts are we willing to mortgage to get our guy?
As Rich Eisen mentioned yesterday, there is no such thing as moderately priced QB market. When Geno Smith, year off the trash heap is awarded 105 mil 3 yr. contract, proves the point. Signing a bridge "starter", that might not get you through the year, is still going to cost 30 mil, and will be a major drop off from our current production.
We have a choice of either drafting over and over until we find the unicorn, paying below market value for 5 yrs. or paying market value for a proven entity. I don't know if there's a right answer.
This is a very fair point and it's why it's unfortunate the Vikings put themselves in this situation. So many things they could have done differently over the years to avoid it. Off the top of my head:
1. Rick not neglecting the backup QB position for a decade.
(^by far the most egregious offense)
2. Not beating the Bears offer and trading up for Fields. I really think this would have saved Rick's job, had he done it.
3. Getting better value from our first round trade back last year.
4. Not trading for Hockenson at all (Very good player but what hump did he put us over? Hopefully going forward he will.)
We'll have to see how the draft shakes out but I think Levis is worth trading up for if he slips a little. Bears moved from I think 21 to 12 and it cost them a future first and change. That's a palatable cost if the Vikings think he's the guy. Would I advocate burning multiple firsts to jump into the top 5? That's much scarier. If it works you're a genius. If not KAM is back to stock broking. I don't think the Vikings will take that big of a swing and I don't blame them for not wanting to. But we need something. Hooker might be the move.
I honestly havent looked at the QB tape, but is Hooker the guy because Hooker is the guy, or is Hooker the guy because all the better ones were already taken? because thats how we ended up with Ponder, and a lot of other QBs that just were clipboard holders. funny things is how many of our clip board holders ended up with SB rings after they left the Vikings, holding clipboards for other teams, I guess thats one thing we can say, we know how to draft quality back up QBs.
we have used a fair amount of picks on the position over the last couple decades, but how many were really quality efforts for the position? I would say none, they never really identified their guy and made hard moves to get him. taking what you can get when it comes to you is hardly a sound practice for getting the best candidates for any position, let alone a QB, as evidenced by the amount of draft capital teams are willing to give up to get one they covet. time for a Vikings GM to show some conviction and covet a QB.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ pattersaur said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ PurplePastor said:
@ AGRforever said:
$37.5/yr average on Carrs 4yr deal.
That's kind of an ouch or am I outdated on my assessment?
It puts him behind Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Kyler Murray, Deshaun Watson, and Dak who all signed recent extensions. It's just in front of Cousins in terms of AAV.
Like Greylock said, it's probably a bargain when considering the average annual salary and guarantees compared to some of the other young QBs and formerly elite vets who signed extensions in the past year.
puts him at 9th in terms of avg annual. thats about where he should be IMO in terms of money.
I would put Kirk in right around there as well in terms of pay vs production. IMO Kirk has the better arm talent, but Carr has the edge in terms of pocket awareness and mobility, as well as off script plays from the little I have seen of him the last couple years.
I think both of these guys should be ahead of some of those guys making more per year, but there just isnt any value in those other guys at their numbers. Wilson, Murray, Watson, Stafford, and Prescott would all be paid less than these two if I was writing the checks, for one reason or another. Possibly not Watson, but I didnt really get a chance to watch him at the end of the year to see how he came back.
Cousins and Carr have almost identical numbers as far as rushing with Kirk actually with a few more attempts. In every throwing category Cousins is ahead of Carr.
As far as extending Cousins, the market is set, by the likes of Carr, Murray, Prescott, and Stafford. I don't think there's a chance Cousins signs for less than 39-40 mill per, knowing that in 2 years guys like Herbert, Lawrence, Lawrence, Hurts, and who knows who else will be inking deals way beyond his, as the cap gets fatter.
Then I move on, I dont care what other teams do, anything more than what Carr got is overpaying for the results we get. Time to find our own QB. You've written many times here that we need to draft our QB of the future. I agree we should be trying to do that. You've also said that you wouldn't throw a rookie QB into the fire and ruin him and we'll need a bridge. So, how much draft capital do we intend to spend on this QB this year to ensure we don't end up with the the next Zach Wilson, Blaine Gabbert, Blake Bortles, Jake Locker, Marcus Mariota, Jamis Winston? Of course, our 31st rated defense needs help at every position group, we need at least 1 more interior O-lineman, and will probably have to replace Theilen and Cook. Only 4 picks, no 2nd rounder. How many future firsts are we willing to mortgage to get our guy?
As Rich Eisen mentioned yesterday, there is no such thing as moderately priced QB market. When Geno Smith, year off the trash heap is awarded 105 mil 3 yr. contract, proves the point. Signing a bridge "starter", that might not get you through the year, is still going to cost 30 mil, and will be a major drop off from our current production.
We have a choice of either drafting over and over until we find the unicorn, paying below market value for 5 yrs. or paying market value for a proven entity. I don't know if there's a right answer.
This is a very fair point and it's why it's unfortunate the Vikings put themselves in this situation. So many things they could have done differently over the years to avoid it. Off the top of my head:
1. Rick not neglecting the backup QB position for a decade.
(^by far the most egregious offense)
2. Not beating the Bears offer and trading up for Fields. I really think this would have saved Rick's job, had he done it.
3. Getting better value from our first round trade back last year.
4. Not trading for Hockenson at all (Very good player but what hump did he put us over? Hopefully going forward he will.)
We'll have to see how the draft shakes out but I think Levis is worth trading up for if he slips a little. Bears moved from I think 21 to 12 and it cost them a future first and change. That's a palatable cost if the Vikings think he's the guy. Would I advocate burning multiple firsts to jump into the top 5? That's much scarier. If it works you're a genius. If not KAM is back to stock broking. I don't think the Vikings will take that big of a swing and I don't blame them for not wanting to. But we need something. Hooker might be the move.
I think its a simple premise:
1). If there is someone there they love? Have conviction and make the move
2). There is (imo) not huge pressure to draft someone this year vs next
3). Moving into top 5 would be prohibitive (see pt 1). I can maybe see them make a move into that 8-12 range tops
4). I think there will be a crazy run on QB's the top 8 picks
of course there will be, thats why this continued notion to keep rolling with "good, but not good enough" is not working. its that way every year, the best prospects go early and when you need a large infusion of talent, its most economical and expedient to cut your loses, have a rebuilding year or two, and get some quality draft position. People like to talk about how losing a couple more games only moves you up a few spots, but thats a few spots in every round, and thats one later round pick to surrender if you want to trade up to a higher spot. I dont subscribe to tanking a season, but you dont have to spend every year like its going to be your year either. I do think that this year is definitely the year to get KCs replacement, should have been done last year and the year before that, every year they dont get his replacement in here is another year of overpaying for the position and will lead to an over all aggregate talent loss on the team as a result.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ PurplePastor said:
@ AGRforever said:
$37.5/yr average on Carrs 4yr deal.
That's kind of an ouch or am I outdated on my assessment?
It puts him behind Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Kyler Murray, Deshaun Watson, and Dak who all signed recent extensions. It's just in front of Cousins in terms of AAV.
Like Greylock said, it's probably a bargain when considering the average annual salary and guarantees compared to some of the other young QBs and formerly elite vets who signed extensions in the past year.
puts him at 9th in terms of avg annual. thats about where he should be IMO in terms of money.
I would put Kirk in right around there as well in terms of pay vs production. IMO Kirk has the better arm talent, but Carr has the edge in terms of pocket awareness and mobility, as well as off script plays from the little I have seen of him the last couple years.
I think both of these guys should be ahead of some of those guys making more per year, but there just isnt any value in those other guys at their numbers. Wilson, Murray, Watson, Stafford, and Prescott would all be paid less than these two if I was writing the checks, for one reason or another. Possibly not Watson, but I didnt really get a chance to watch him at the end of the year to see how he came back.
Cousins and Carr have almost identical numbers as far as rushing with Kirk actually with a few more attempts. In every throwing category Cousins is ahead of Carr.
As far as extending Cousins, the market is set, by the likes of Carr, Murray, Prescott, and Stafford. I don't think there's a chance Cousins signs for less than 39-40 mill per, knowing that in 2 years guys like Herbert, Lawrence, Lawrence, Hurts, and who knows who else will be inking deals way beyond his, as the cap gets fatter.
Then I move on, I dont care what other teams do, anything more than what Carr got is overpaying for the results we get. Time to find our own QB. You've written many times here that we need to draft our QB of the future. I agree we should be trying to do that. You've also said that you wouldn't throw a rookie QB into the fire and ruin him and we'll need a bridge. So, how much draft capital do we intend to spend on this QB this year to ensure we don't end up with the the next Zach Wilson, Blaine Gabbert, Blake Bortles, Jake Locker, Marcus Mariota, Jamis Winston? Of course, our 31st rated defense needs help at every position group, we need at least 1 more interior O-lineman, and will probably have to replace Theilen and Cook. Only 4 picks, no 2nd rounder. How many future firsts are we willing to mortgage to get our guy?
As Rich Eisen mentioned yesterday, there is no such thing as moderately priced QB market. When Geno Smith, year off the trash heap is awarded 105 mil 3 yr. contract, proves the point. Signing a bridge "starter", that might not get you through the year, is still going to cost 30 mil, and will be a major drop off from our current production.
We have a choice of either drafting over and over until we find the unicorn, paying below market value for 5 yrs. or paying market value for a proven entity. I don't know if there's a right answer.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...5-million/
I do know that over paying for a product rarely ends up with the results you hope. I hear all the time that "its a business" when these players use every leverage they can to make every dime they can, but how many businesses succeed long term by over paying their upper staff, and letting quality suffer as a result? We have parts of our team that merit top tier money, we have parts that merit middle ground money, and parts that merit less, when you over pay, even by a few %, it will have affects on on other positions skill levels. I dont think we compete this coming year, just as I said we wouldnt be in the running last year and we really werent, KC is under contract for 23, so why would we have to do anything this year? As I've said, my first move would be to try and trade him for draft capital and maybe a QB prospect like one of the 2 in San Fran. I would still like to add another QB prospect if we dont retain Mullens, and I would look to sign a guy that can come in and help mentor these young guys as well as take a year of QB1 snaps. Even if that guy only saves us 10 million over KC, that 10 million that could be used on upgrade at the C position or one of the countless defensive spots. I just dont see the future with KC, so its time to get off that train, either immediately through a trade, or by letting him walk after next year and netting that compensatory pick, the only way I see him as a viable QB worth extending is on a very very team friendly deal that would still allow cap space for other positions ( like Brady did that lead to a handful of SB rings for himself.)
The cap can be manipulated yes, but in the end, it is a number that has to be factored in, either now or down the road, by pushing todays expenses into future years, sure you created more space for the now, but you have shorted yourself in the future, so is it really wise to keep dumping more debt into future years ( when you may actually have a team worth going all in with ) or would that money be better used to fortify a roster that is SB ready in a year or two? I maintain, build the roster first, then break the cap to get over the hump.
Well you keep saying he's not playing up to his salary, but who is, besides the guy who wins the Super bowl, or the guy on his rookie deal and doesn't suck? It's been said ad nauseam, but football is the ultimate team sport. How much of a step back would Philly be with KC at QB or with the 49ers. 2 years ago do you think Stafford was that much better than KC? We might not match last years' record again in 2023. It was insane having 8 comeback wins, but it won't because we spent 5 million too much on a QB that won us more games than he lost us by a good margin.
Why aren't you on the bandwagon of dumping Hunter and Harry. That side of the ball ranked 31st and have they lived up to their salaries? You see a future for them with the team? Still going to play 3-4.
I'd like to bring a QB prospect in as well, but at the expense of a LBer, IOL, WR, DL, S, CB all of whom need to be starters from the jump?
Quote: @mgobluevikes said:
...
Well you keep saying he's not playing up to his salary, but who is, besides the guy who wins the Super bowl, or the guy on his rookie deal and doesn't suck? It's been said ad nauseam, but football is the ultimate team sport. How much of a step back would Philly be with KC at QB or with the 49ers. 2 years ago do you think Stafford was that much better than KC? We might not match last years' record again in 2023. It was insane having 8 comeback wins, but it won't because we spent 5 million too much on a QB that won us more games than he lost us by a good margin.
Why aren't you on the bandwagon of dumping Hunter and Harry. That side of the ball ranked 31st and have they lived up to their salaries? You see a future for them with the team? Still going to play 3-4.
I'd like to bring a QB prospect in as well, but at the expense of a LBer, IOL, WR, DL, S, CB all of whom need to be starters from the jump?
Jalen Hurts cost $1.6M last year vs Cousins $31.4M. (You could acquire 3 of the Eagles 4 most expensive players for about the difference in cost). The Rams took a huge gamble and went all in with Stafford, and now they're practically disassembling it all, so they basically had a 2 year window. One was magical, one was disastrous. Maybe we could do miraculous, but I think the going all in method would indicate that we do all in for maybe 2 years and then burning it down rather than extending him for 4 years or whatever. We do need to get much more cost efficient all over the team. What's really plagued us is not getting production out of enough draft picks and low cost free agents.
Quote: @mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ PurplePastor said:
@ AGRforever said:
$37.5/yr average on Carrs 4yr deal.
That's kind of an ouch or am I outdated on my assessment?
It puts him behind Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Kyler Murray, Deshaun Watson, and Dak who all signed recent extensions. It's just in front of Cousins in terms of AAV.
Like Greylock said, it's probably a bargain when considering the average annual salary and guarantees compared to some of the other young QBs and formerly elite vets who signed extensions in the past year.
puts him at 9th in terms of avg annual. thats about where he should be IMO in terms of money.
I would put Kirk in right around there as well in terms of pay vs production. IMO Kirk has the better arm talent, but Carr has the edge in terms of pocket awareness and mobility, as well as off script plays from the little I have seen of him the last couple years.
I think both of these guys should be ahead of some of those guys making more per year, but there just isnt any value in those other guys at their numbers. Wilson, Murray, Watson, Stafford, and Prescott would all be paid less than these two if I was writing the checks, for one reason or another. Possibly not Watson, but I didnt really get a chance to watch him at the end of the year to see how he came back.
Cousins and Carr have almost identical numbers as far as rushing with Kirk actually with a few more attempts. In every throwing category Cousins is ahead of Carr.
As far as extending Cousins, the market is set, by the likes of Carr, Murray, Prescott, and Stafford. I don't think there's a chance Cousins signs for less than 39-40 mill per, knowing that in 2 years guys like Herbert, Lawrence, Lawrence, Hurts, and who knows who else will be inking deals way beyond his, as the cap gets fatter.
Then I move on, I dont care what other teams do, anything more than what Carr got is overpaying for the results we get. Time to find our own QB. You've written many times here that we need to draft our QB of the future. I agree we should be trying to do that. You've also said that you wouldn't throw a rookie QB into the fire and ruin him and we'll need a bridge. So, how much draft capital do we intend to spend on this QB this year to ensure we don't end up with the the next Zach Wilson, Blaine Gabbert, Blake Bortles, Jake Locker, Marcus Mariota, Jamis Winston? Of course, our 31st rated defense needs help at every position group, we need at least 1 more interior O-lineman, and will probably have to replace Theilen and Cook. Only 4 picks, no 2nd rounder. How many future firsts are we willing to mortgage to get our guy?
As Rich Eisen mentioned yesterday, there is no such thing as moderately priced QB market. When Geno Smith, year off the trash heap is awarded 105 mil 3 yr. contract, proves the point. Signing a bridge "starter", that might not get you through the year, is still going to cost 30 mil, and will be a major drop off from our current production.
We have a choice of either drafting over and over until we find the unicorn, paying below market value for 5 yrs. or paying market value for a proven entity. I don't know if
Well you keep saying he's not playing up to his salary, but who is, besides the guy who wins the Super bowl, or the guy on his rookie deal and doesn't suck? It's been said ad nauseam, but football is the ultimate team sport. How much of a step back would Philly be with KC at QB or with the 49ers. 2 years ago do you think Stafford was that much better than KC? We might not match last years' record again in 2023. It was insane having 8 comeback wins, but it won't because we spent 5 million too much on a QB that won us more games than he lost us by a good margin.
Why aren't you on the bandwagon of dumping Hunter 1 Harry. That side of the ball ranked 31st and have they lived up to their salaries? You see a future for them with the team? Still going to play 3-4.
I'd like to bring a QB prospect in as well, but at the expense of a LBer, IOL, WR, DL, S, CB all of whom need to be starters from the jump?
I'm fine with offering them renegotiating contracts or moving on, but they aren't the one people are talking about needing a new deal, or eating a huge chunk of cap space by themselves. I am in belief that Harry already won't be here if he doesn't restructure for less, and Hunter would likely be trade bait for a move up to try and snag a QB. Not sure where you get that I am opposed to those moves or any player contract being under scrutiny.
Its funny you talk about it being a team game, but then talk about the 8 comebacks to defend KC like they were his doing. He threw some shit passes and got bailed out plenty, I dont like talking shit about KC, because he is a good player and a better person, but that doesn't change the fact that his contract situation is hampering the future success of this team.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ PurplePastor said:
@ AGRforever said:
$37.5/yr average on Carrs 4yr deal.
That's kind of an ouch or am I outdated on my assessment?
It puts him behind Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Kyler Murray, Deshaun Watson, and Dak who all signed recent extensions. It's just in front of Cousins in terms of AAV.
Like Greylock said, it's probably a bargain when considering the average annual salary and guarantees compared to some of the other young QBs and formerly elite vets who signed extensions in the past year.
puts him at 9th in terms of avg annual. thats about where he should be IMO in terms of money.
I would put Kirk in right around there as well in terms of pay vs production. IMO Kirk has the better arm talent, but Carr has the edge in terms of pocket awareness and mobility, as well as off script plays from the little I have seen of him the last couple years.
I think both of these guys should be ahead of some of those guys making more per year, but there just isnt any value in those other guys at their numbers. Wilson, Murray, Watson, Stafford, and Prescott would all be paid less than these two if I was writing the checks, for one reason or another. Possibly not Watson, but I didnt really get a chance to watch him at the end of the year to see how he came back.
Cousins and Carr have almost identical numbers as far as rushing with Kirk actually with a few more attempts. In every throwing category Cousins is ahead of Carr.
As far as extending Cousins, the market is set, by the likes of Carr, Murray, Prescott, and Stafford. I don't think there's a chance Cousins signs for less than 39-40 mill per, knowing that in 2 years guys like Herbert, Lawrence, Lawrence, Hurts, and who knows who else will be inking deals way beyond his, as the cap gets fatter.
Then I move on, I dont care what other teams do, anything more than what Carr got is overpaying for the results we get. Time to find our own QB. You've written many times here that we need to draft our QB of the future. I agree we should be trying to do that. You've also said that you wouldn't throw a rookie QB into the fire and ruin him and we'll need a bridge. So, how much draft capital do we intend to spend on this QB this year to ensure we don't end up with the the next Zach Wilson, Blaine Gabbert, Blake Bortles, Jake Locker, Marcus Mariota, Jamis Winston? Of course, our 31st rated defense needs help at every position group, we need at least 1 more interior O-lineman, and will probably have to replace Theilen and Cook. Only 4 picks, no 2nd rounder. How many future firsts are we willing to mortgage to get our guy?
As Rich Eisen mentioned yesterday, there is no such thing as moderately priced QB market. When Geno Smith, year off the trash heap is awarded 105 mil 3 yr. contract, proves the point. Signing a bridge "starter", that might not get you through the year, is still going to cost 30 mil, and will be a major drop off from our current production.
We have a choice of either drafting over and over until we find the unicorn, paying below market value for 5 yrs. or paying market value for a proven entity. I don't know if
Well you keep saying he's not playing up to his salary, but who is, besides the guy who wins the Super bowl, or the guy on his rookie deal and doesn't suck? It's been said ad nauseam, but football is the ultimate team sport. How much of a step back would Philly be with KC at QB or with the 49ers. 2 years ago do you think Stafford was that much better than KC? We might not match last years' record again in 2023. It was insane having 8 comeback wins, but it won't because we spent 5 million too much on a QB that won us more games than he lost us by a good margin.
Why aren't you on the bandwagon of dumping Hunter 1 Harry. That side of the ball ranked 31st and have they lived up to their salaries? You see a future for them with the team? Still going to play 3-4.
I'd like to bring a QB prospect in as well, but at the expense of a LBer, IOL, WR, DL, S, CB all of whom need to be starters from the jump?
I'm fine with offering them renegotiating contracts or moving on, but they aren't the one people are talking about needing a new deal, or eating a huge chunk of cap space by themselves. I am in belief that Harry already won't be here if he doesn't restructure for less, and Hunter would likely be trade bait for a move up to try and snag a QB. Not sure where you get that I am opposed to those moves or any player contract being under scrutiny.
Its funny you talk about it being a team game, but then talk about the 8 comebacks to defend KC like they were his doing. He threw some shit passes and got bailed out plenty, I dont like talking shit about KC, because he is a good player and a better person, but that doesn't change the fact that his contract situation is hampering the future success of this team.
I just don't see anyone pounding the table for Harry to have to take a 70% salary cut or release him, or to have Hunter and or Z get traded before the draft. It's painfully obvious who hasn't been playing up to expectations and whose skill sets are hampering the future success of the team. (see Kendricks), If we need to save 10 mil or more, there's a myriad of options open to Kwesi not named Kirk Cousins to clear cap space, target free agents, and potentially trade for more picks. Yet some are fixated on the guy who led the team in yet another new offensive scheme (for the umpteenth time), behind a suspect line, (for the umpteenth time), and was successful beyond all expectations, finishing in the top 10 in total team offense. Meanwhile, we're staring at a defense that is a swift kick from falling in on itself. Might as well do it right and start from the ground up while Flores is still around.
As far as those comeback wins; if we lost those games on the final drives, I guess Cousins wouldn't have got blamed? He and the receivers did enough to pull it off, mostly without help from the defense. Name a QB who hasn't thrown a couple less than perfect passes and got bailed out. He still kept drives going and didn't let a shit pass, if there was one, get in his head enough to snowball into a loss. That's just some weak sauce.
This doesn't mean I'm not for drafting a QB of the future. In order to make it happen we have to make some deals to get a couple more draft picks. If we want to move the needle at all, the players to consider moving right now are those that are not a scheme fit, have aged out, or have major trade value, (from that 31st rated defense).
Quote: @medaille said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
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Well you keep saying he's not playing up to his salary, but who is, besides the guy who wins the Super bowl, or the guy on his rookie deal and doesn't suck? It's been said ad nauseam, but football is the ultimate team sport. How much of a step back would Philly be with KC at QB or with the 49ers. 2 years ago do you think Stafford was that much better than KC? We might not match last years' record again in 2023. It was insane having 8 comeback wins, but it won't because we spent 5 million too much on a QB that won us more games than he lost us by a good margin.
Why aren't you on the bandwagon of dumping Hunter and Harry. That side of the ball ranked 31st and have they lived up to their salaries? You see a future for them with the team? Still going to play 3-4.
I'd like to bring a QB prospect in as well, but at the expense of a LBer, IOL, WR, DL, S, CB all of whom need to be starters from the jump?
Jalen Hurts cost $1.6M last year vs Cousins $31.4M. (You could acquire 3 of the Eagles 4 most expensive players for about the difference in cost). The Rams took a huge gamble and went all in with Stafford, and now they're practically disassembling it all, so they basically had a 2 year window. One was magical, one was disastrous. Maybe we could do miraculous, but I think the going all in method would indicate that we do all in for maybe 2 years and then burning it down rather than extending him for 4 years or whatever. We do need to get much more cost efficient all over the team. What's really plagued us is not getting production out of enough draft picks and low cost free agents.
It's the beauty of having a guy on his rookie deal. If you look at their next 4 highest players compared to ours and we owe roughly 10 million more. We're in rough shape. Look at the number we're on the hook for Brian O'Neill. Same as Theilen money. It's insane. Harry is 19 million, Z is 15 million. Cook 14, Hunter 13. Brez must have been wanting to kill Rick and Zim.
Quote: @mgobluevikes said:
@ medaille said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
...
Well you keep saying he's not playing up to his salary, but who is, besides the guy who wins the Super bowl, or the guy on his rookie deal and doesn't suck? It's been said ad nauseam, but football is the ultimate team sport. How much of a step back would Philly be with KC at QB or with the 49ers. 2 years ago do you think Stafford was that much better than KC? We might not match last years' record again in 2023. It was insane having 8 comeback wins, but it won't because we spent 5 million too much on a QB that won us more games than he lost us by a good margin.
Why aren't you on the bandwagon of dumping Hunter and Harry. That side of the ball ranked 31st and have they lived up to their salaries? You see a future for them with the team? Still going to play 3-4.
I'd like to bring a QB prospect in as well, but at the expense of a LBer, IOL, WR, DL, S, CB all of whom need to be starters from the jump?
Jalen Hurts cost $1.6M last year vs Cousins $31.4M. (You could acquire 3 of the Eagles 4 most expensive players for about the difference in cost). The Rams took a huge gamble and went all in with Stafford, and now they're practically disassembling it all, so they basically had a 2 year window. One was magical, one was disastrous. Maybe we could do miraculous, but I think the going all in method would indicate that we do all in for maybe 2 years and then burning it down rather than extending him for 4 years or whatever. We do need to get much more cost efficient all over the team. What's really plagued us is not getting production out of enough draft picks and low cost free agents.
It's the beauty of having a guy on his rookie deal. If you look at their next 4 highest players compared to ours and we owe roughly 10 million more. We're in rough shape. Look at the number we're on the hook for Brian O'Neill. Same as Theilen money. It's insane. Harry is 19 million, Z is 15 million. Cook 14, Hunter 13. Brez must have been wanting to kill Rick and Zim.
The only cap hits out of whack are the Thielen and Harry hits, and you can be sure the team is going to do something about those. O'Neill's a young guy so that's an easy fix. Team probably never intended to absorb the $19M when it was written. Z and Hunter, both pro bowl players, rank 24th and 28th in terms of their cap hits, much lower in terms of average per year. Bargains. And Cousins now ranks 11th in both cap hit and % of cap.
It's just a game and every team plays it. Saints are $55M over the cap and just gave Derek Carr $150M. Oh they're kicking the can down the road, they say. So is every team in the NFL. It's how you play the game. Folks need to stop stressing so much about it.
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