Quote: @mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
while I agree that he deserves a lot of recognition, he was bailed on a lot of otherwise uncatchable balls by JJ. If we want to talk about why the team is where its at.... essentially the team MVP, I have to vote for JJ. of the 5 games where he was held for under 100 yards ( ok 98 since the cards game he only had 98) the Vikings lost 4 of those 5 games. ( I am also not counting the final bears game since they didnt let most the starters have a full game.) Sure he cant throw the ball to himself, but the circus catches and the range he showed this year, not to mention the beatings he has taken on some of those poorly placed balls or balls that shouldnt have been thrown, makes JJ my team MVP.
Kirk has played better in some ways this year, worse in some ways, his willingness to stand and deliver in the face of a pretty certain ass whooping is admirable, and his leadership has certainly come to the surface under a coach willing to let kirk be the man. I wouldnt give 2 shits for the kirko crap, I honestly dont care if he is cut out of a target ad, the next edition of GQ, or wears his baseball hat backwards, all I care about is if he gets the job done, and can we afford to make the team better around him to maybe, someday, win that fucking elusive SB. He gets the job done, and I have beat the other matter to death so... Nice season to Mr, Cousins.
All this to say you just don't really like Kirk all that much, and keep propping up the false narrative that everyone around him are the "real" heroes, with Kirk constantly putting receivers in unreasonable danger. The so called "beatings" JJ has taken from those poorly placed balls or balls that shouldn't have been thrown, isn't backed up by anything other than you said so.
Fact is, that 80-90% of this team's problems stems from the defensive side of the ball, i.e., bad scheme/play calling/coordinator, personnel, etc. Compare that to the approximate 10-20% of our offensive problems, which come from inexperienced play calling, offensive line play/personnel, etc. In my estimation 10% is completely attributable to incompetent O-line play, with another 5-10% of inefficiency attributable to a new coaching staff and poor play calling, and somewhere in the margins, QB play that might have out and out cost us a win.
Maybe you can take another crack at a more backhanded compliment, or what QB metric unlocks your happy dance, but I think the real issue is that we just haven't drafted well enough overall and ignored the trenches, while gambling on a few iffy skill positions that have flamed out.
Yep.
Quote: @mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
while I agree that he deserves a lot of recognition, he was bailed on a lot of otherwise uncatchable balls by JJ. If we want to talk about why the team is where its at.... essentially the team MVP, I have to vote for JJ. of the 5 games where he was held for under 100 yards ( ok 98 since the cards game he only had 98) the Vikings lost 4 of those 5 games. ( I am also not counting the final bears game since they didnt let most the starters have a full game.) Sure he cant throw the ball to himself, but the circus catches and the range he showed this year, not to mention the beatings he has taken on some of those poorly placed balls or balls that shouldnt have been thrown, makes JJ my team MVP.
Kirk has played better in some ways this year, worse in some ways, his willingness to stand and deliver in the face of a pretty certain ass whooping is admirable, and his leadership has certainly come to the surface under a coach willing to let kirk be the man. I wouldnt give 2 shits for the kirko crap, I honestly dont care if he is cut out of a target ad, the next edition of GQ, or wears his baseball hat backwards, all I care about is if he gets the job done, and can we afford to make the team better around him to maybe, someday, win that fucking elusive SB. He gets the job done, and I have beat the other matter to death so... Nice season to Mr, Cousins.
All this to say you just don't really like Kirk all that much, and keep propping up the false narrative that everyone around him are the "real" heroes, with Kirk constantly putting receivers in unreasonable danger. The so called "beatings" JJ has taken from those poorly placed balls or balls that shouldn't have been thrown, isn't backed up by anything other than you said so.
Fact is, that 80-90% of this team's problems stems from the defensive side of the ball, i.e., bad scheme/play calling/coordinator, personnel, etc. Compare that to the approximate 10-20% of our offensive problems, which come from inexperienced play calling, offensive line play/personnel, etc. In my estimation 10% is completely attributable to incompetent O-line play, with another 5-10% of inefficiency attributable to a new coaching staff and poor play calling, and somewhere in the margins, QB play that might have out and out cost us a win.
Maybe you can take another crack at a more backhanded compliment, or what QB metric unlocks your happy dance, but I think the real issue is that we just haven't drafted well enough overall and ignored the trenches, while gambling on a few iffy skill positions that have flamed out.
80 to 90 is the defense? In our 4 losses the O put up a combined 12.5 ppg average and that is on the D?
I have no problem with Kirk except I think he is overpaid and his bloated contract vs the return prevent the front office from building a better team around him. At his price tag I expect more, better mobility in and out of the would be a good start, we have seen a little improvement there this year, but he is still wanting in that dept. He is an above average QB that can play very good IMO, but I still think his play overall could be equalled from a cheaper QB, maybe not his passing stats alone, but overall performance from the position. I have never said I dont like the guy, hell as a Christian and an American what is not to like about Kirk Cousins the person? If he was playing on a deal that allowed to team to comfortably build better around him I would be more accepting of his short comings on the field, but when his contracts average as much of the cap as they do each term that hinders the rest of the roster and I expect more. Same goes for about every other player that doesn't meet their pay. If they want superstar money, I expect superstar results pretty consistently.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
while I agree that he deserves a lot of recognition, he was bailed on a lot of otherwise uncatchable balls by JJ. If we want to talk about why the team is where its at.... essentially the team MVP, I have to vote for JJ. of the 5 games where he was held for under 100 yards ( ok 98 since the cards game he only had 98) the Vikings lost 4 of those 5 games. ( I am also not counting the final bears game since they didnt let most the starters have a full game.) Sure he cant throw the ball to himself, but the circus catches and the range he showed this year, not to mention the beatings he has taken on some of those poorly placed balls or balls that shouldnt have been thrown, makes JJ my team MVP.
Kirk has played better in some ways this year, worse in some ways, his willingness to stand and deliver in the face of a pretty certain ass whooping is admirable, and his leadership has certainly come to the surface under a coach willing to let kirk be the man. I wouldnt give 2 shits for the kirko crap, I honestly dont care if he is cut out of a target ad, the next edition of GQ, or wears his baseball hat backwards, all I care about is if he gets the job done, and can we afford to make the team better around him to maybe, someday, win that fucking elusive SB. He gets the job done, and I have beat the other matter to death so... Nice season to Mr, Cousins.
All this to say you just don't really like Kirk all that much, and keep propping up the false narrative that everyone around him are the "real" heroes, with Kirk constantly putting receivers in unreasonable danger. The so called "beatings" JJ has taken from those poorly placed balls or balls that shouldn't have been thrown, isn't backed up by anything other than you said so.
Fact is, that 80-90% of this team's problems stems from the defensive side of the ball, i.e., bad scheme/play calling/coordinator, personnel, etc. Compare that to the approximate 10-20% of our offensive problems, which come from inexperienced play calling, offensive line play/personnel, etc. In my estimation 10% is completely attributable to incompetent O-line play, with another 5-10% of inefficiency attributable to a new coaching staff and poor play calling, and somewhere in the margins, QB play that might have out and out cost us a win.
Maybe you can take another crack at a more backhanded compliment, or what QB metric unlocks your happy dance, but I think the real issue is that we just haven't drafted well enough overall and ignored the trenches, while gambling on a few iffy skill positions that have flamed out.
80 to 90 is the defense? In our 4 losses the O put up a combined 12.5 ppg average and that is on the D?
I have no problem with Kirk except I think he is overpaid and his bloated contract vs the return prevent the front office from building a better team around him. At his price tag I expect more, better mobility in and out of the would be a good start, we have seen a little improvement there this year, but he is still wanting in that dept. He is an above average QB that can play very good IMO, but I still think his play overall could be equalled from a cheaper QB, maybe not his passing stats alone, but overall performance from the position. I have never said I dont like the guy, hell as a Christian and an American what is not to like about Kirk Cousins the person? If he was playing on a deal that allowed to team to comfortably build better around him I would be more accepting of his short comings on the field, but when his contracts average as much of the cap as they do each term that hinders the rest of the roster and I expect more. Same goes for about every other player that doesn't meet their pay. If they want superstar money, I expect superstar results pretty consistently.
If you're a starting QB in the NFL past your rookie contract, you're going to be paid a ridiculous amount of money. Right now, Cousins average per year ranks 10th in the NFL. Less than Rodgers, Murray, Watson, Carr, Stafford and Wilson, all of whom he outplayed this season.
Can you build a better roster without a top-paid QB? Probably, if you draft well. But good luck going anywhere if your "cheaper QB" just isn't very good.
There's actually a pretty good case study here. Washington did exactly what you're advocating. Rather than pay their QB market value, they thought they could build a better roster by going cheap at the QB position. Since then, they've had 12 different starting QBs.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
while I agree that he deserves a lot of recognition, he was bailed on a lot of otherwise uncatchable balls by JJ. If we want to talk about why the team is where its at.... essentially the team MVP, I have to vote for JJ. of the 5 games where he was held for under 100 yards ( ok 98 since the cards game he only had 98) the Vikings lost 4 of those 5 games. ( I am also not counting the final bears game since they didnt let most the starters have a full game.) Sure he cant throw the ball to himself, but the circus catches and the range he showed this year, not to mention the beatings he has taken on some of those poorly placed balls or balls that shouldnt have been thrown, makes JJ my team MVP.
Kirk has played better in some ways this year, worse in some ways, his willingness to stand and deliver in the face of a pretty certain ass whooping is admirable, and his leadership has certainly come to the surface under a coach willing to let kirk be the man. I wouldnt give 2 shits for the kirko crap, I honestly dont care if he is cut out of a target ad, the next edition of GQ, or wears his baseball hat backwards, all I care about is if he gets the job done, and can we afford to make the team better around him to maybe, someday, win that fucking elusive SB. He gets the job done, and I have beat the other matter to death so... Nice season to Mr, Cousins.
All this to say you just don't really like Kirk all that much, and keep propping up the false narrative that everyone around him are the "real" heroes, with Kirk constantly putting receivers in unreasonable danger. The so called "beatings" JJ has taken from those poorly placed balls or balls that shouldn't have been thrown, isn't backed up by anything other than you said so.
Fact is, that 80-90% of this team's problems stems from the defensive side of the ball, i.e., bad scheme/play calling/coordinator, personnel, etc. Compare that to the approximate 10-20% of our offensive problems, which come from inexperienced play calling, offensive line play/personnel, etc. In my estimation 10% is completely attributable to incompetent O-line play, with another 5-10% of inefficiency attributable to a new coaching staff and poor play calling, and somewhere in the margins, QB play that might have out and out cost us a win.
Maybe you can take another crack at a more backhanded compliment, or what QB metric unlocks your happy dance, but I think the real issue is that we just haven't drafted well enough overall and ignored the trenches, while gambling on a few iffy skill positions that have flamed out.
80 to 90 is the defense? In our 4 losses the O put up a combined 12.5 ppg average and that is on the D?
I have no problem with Kirk except I think he is overpaid and his bloated contract vs the return prevent the front office from building a better team around him. At his price tag I expect more, better mobility in and out of the would be a good start, we have seen a little improvement there this year, but he is still wanting in that dept. He is an above average QB that can play very good IMO, but I still think his play overall could be equalled from a cheaper QB, maybe not his passing stats alone, but overall performance from the position. I have never said I dont like the guy, hell as a Christian and an American what is not to like about Kirk Cousins the person? If he was playing on a deal that allowed to team to comfortably build better around him I would be more accepting of his short comings on the field, but when his contracts average as much of the cap as they do each term that hinders the rest of the roster and I expect more. Same goes for about every other player that doesn't meet their pay. If they want superstar money, I expect superstar results pretty consistently.
If you're a starting QB in the NFL past your rookie contract, you're going to be paid a ridiculous amount of money. Right now, Cousins average per year ranks 10th in the NFL. Less than Rodgers, Murray, Watson, Carr, Stafford and Wilson, all of whom he outplayed this season.
Can you build a better roster without a top-paid QB? Probably, if you draft well. But good luck going anywhere if your "cheaper QB" just isn't very good.
There's actually a pretty good case study here. Washington did exactly what you're advocating. Rather than pay their QB market value, they thought they could build a better roster by going cheap at the QB position. Since then, they've had 12 different starting QBs.
give it a couple months, he is only 10th because he is due for a new deal and the rest on that list have all signed their mega deals after his last deal. He will be at or near the top once again as soon as he gets his new deal, which will on further hamper the teams ability to fix the issues that are holding it back. Like I've said, I dont expect him to play for peanuts, but I do expect him to play up to the level of his deals and if he wants to continually be resetting the QB market, then I want to see a performance that resets the expectations of the position. IMO his contract should be around 13%-14% of the salary cap, IMO that would leave a fair bit for improving the OL. his current deal is averaging about 17% of the cap. He isnt the only one underperforming IMO, but he is the highest paid at the highest profile position and as such gets the most scrutiny.
Second weigh in on this topic.
Florio has a video up on YouTube about how the Lions shouldn’t roll the dice and try and replace Jared Goff.
I find that weird, because he’s definitely not a Cousins fan and has thought in the past that the Vikings should just replace him.
Seems a lot of fans think that Cousins should just be replaced and it’s easy to get Cousins’ type of performance out of a rookie or a FA or a trade.
I’d rather stick with the way Cousins is than roll the dice, blow it up, suffer through a new qb attempting to get it right, or a whole rebuilding project that might not work out.
Quote: @Riphawkins said:
Second weigh in on this topic.
Florio has a video up on YouTube about how the Lions shouldn’t roll the dice and try and replace Jared Goff.
I find that weird, because he’s definitely not a Cousins fan and has thought in the past that the Vikings should just replace him.
Seems a lot of fans think that Cousins should just be replaced and it’s easy to get Cousins’ type of performance out of a rookie or a FA or a trade.
I’d rather stick with the way Cousins is than roll the dice, blow it up, suffer through a new qb attempting to get it right, or a whole rebuilding project that might not work out.
Florio? Didn't know he was still a thing.
As to finding the next QB, IMO they should be doing it while they have their QB. If they hit and Cousins is still worth keeping, they can leverage a trade. Right next to building the O-Line first, it should be the most well known concept for a GM, always be looking for your next QB of the future.
Quote: @Riphawkins said:
Second weigh in on this topic.
Florio has a video up on YouTube about how the Lions shouldn’t roll the dice and try and replace Jared Goff.
I find that weird, because he’s definitely not a Cousins fan and has thought in the past that the Vikings should just replace him.
Seems a lot of fans think that Cousins should just be replaced and it’s easy to get Cousins’ type of performance out of a rookie or a FA or a trade.
I’d rather stick with the way Cousins is than roll the dice, blow it up, suffer through a new qb attempting to get it right, or a whole rebuilding project that might not work out.
drafting a new QB and sticking with KC are not mutually exclusive of each other, any new QB is going to come with a learning curve and having KC under contract will bridge that first learning year. it would be foolish to trade KC away and then not have a mentor for a rookie, or a rookie retread like wilson or some of the other inexperienced names thrown out recently.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Riphawkins said:
Second weigh in on this topic.
Florio has a video up on YouTube about how the Lions shouldn’t roll the dice and try and replace Jared Goff.
I find that weird, because he’s definitely not a Cousins fan and has thought in the past that the Vikings should just replace him.
Seems a lot of fans think that Cousins should just be replaced and it’s easy to get Cousins’ type of performance out of a rookie or a FA or a trade.
I’d rather stick with the way Cousins is than roll the dice, blow it up, suffer through a new qb attempting to get it right, or a whole rebuilding project that might not work out.
drafting a new QB and sticking with KC are not mutually exclusive of each other, any new QB is going to come with a learning curve and having KC under contract will bridge that first learning year. it would be foolish to trade KC away and then not have a mentor for a rookie, or a rookie retread like wilson or some of the other inexperienced names thrown out recently.
I agree they aren’t mutually exclusive. However finding a starter quality QB and training him to take the current starter’s place usually results in bad blood. Nobody wants to see their replacement drafted. Not that the Vikings shouldn’t try to find a replacement, because everyone is replaceable.
But, my feeling is some want Cousins gone yesterday and his replacement should have been already found. I don’t think he’s easy to replace, which is why he keeps getting extended, which is why he was franchised twice in Washington.
That’s why they’ve had the likes of Taylor Heinicke starting.
Quote: @Riphawkins said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Riphawkins said:
Second weigh in on this topic.
Florio has a video up on YouTube about how the Lions shouldn’t roll the dice and try and replace Jared Goff.
I find that weird, because he’s definitely not a Cousins fan and has thought in the past that the Vikings should just replace him.
Seems a lot of fans think that Cousins should just be replaced and it’s easy to get Cousins’ type of performance out of a rookie or a FA or a trade.
I’d rather stick with the way Cousins is than roll the dice, blow it up, suffer through a new qb attempting to get it right, or a whole rebuilding project that might not work out.
drafting a new QB and sticking with KC are not mutually exclusive of each other, any new QB is going to come with a learning curve and having KC under contract will bridge that first learning year. it would be foolish to trade KC away and then not have a mentor for a rookie, or a rookie retread like wilson or some of the other inexperienced names thrown out recently.
I agree they aren’t mutually exclusive. However finding a starter quality QB and training him to take the current starter’s place usually results in bad blood. Nobody wants to see their replacement drafted. Not that the Vikings shouldn’t try to find a replacement, because everyone is replaceable.
But, my feeling is some want Cousins gone yesterday and his replacement should have been already found. I don’t think he’s easy to replace, which is why he keeps getting extended, which is why he was franchised twice in Washington.
That’s why they’ve had the likes of Taylor Heinicke starting.
but with that mentality the Chiefs would have rolled with Alex Smith and would have missed out on Pat Mahomes, the patriots would have used whats his name and not wasted a 6th on Brady, and the puke were pretty well set with Favre when they nabbed Rogers, wasnt Montana still rolling at a high level when they grabbed Steve Young? sure these are extremes and you are much more likely to grab a couple duds before you find your next ride or die QB, but you know with certainty that you are going to need a replacement for KC at some point in the next few years and the longer you wait to start taking that shot, the more desperate you will become and then you are back to where we were 5 years ago and that is overpaying for a veteran and never getting that window of top tier QB play on a rookie deal that seems to be a pretty good way to build a contender these days.
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