Quote: @JustinTime18™ said:
@"Geoff Nichols" Let's say we add a couple voidable years to the current contract to see what Cousins can do in KOC's scheme without making a long term commitment. How do those voidable years impact the ability to sign a new deal? Do the voided years accelerate into 2023?
They would only accelerate if his deal expires. So if they re-sign him they would only be adding the incremental $'s they moved forward divided by the number of years less 2022. Void years aren't really awful in this case since you owe him the money regardless and it wouldn't prevent you from resigning him a season from now.
Quote: @Skodin said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ supafreak84 said:
That would drive me crazy as well. The Vikings need to make him an extension offer they are comfortable with moving forward that's going to give then some cap flexibility to improve the roster. If Cousins declines and wants more than offered....then it's in the best interest for the team to trade him now and not risk him leaving in free agency for nothing. Because then we are screwed and probably would have won enough games where it puts us out of reach of next year's QB talent pool.
I'd move him, and move him now. Take whatever draft picks we get plus the cap savings and rebuild this team. Roll with Mond for a year or whoever else we get in return as part of the trade to see if there is anything there moving forward, and if there isn't, you have probably lost enough games to where the team is drafting in the top 10 next season and can land one of those elite QB prospects.
Quenstion;
Would you rather have as an example, Cousins on a high dollar extension for three more years...or would you rather trade him and acquire an extra top 20 first round pick this year, an extra high draft pick next year (possible 1st), and say CJ Stroud on a rookie deal that we'd draft with our own top 10 pick plus all the cap savings we'd have moving off Cousins contract? I'd take the latter option every day of the week. That's the smart play here and building this thing for the long term. Not strapping our salary cap over the next three or four years on QB in his mid 30's who isn't considered an elite player at his position.
if Kirk would play for around 14% of the cap ( all in including bonuses and shit per year) , I think we could likely do some good with that and really kick ass with him as the QB for the next few years, we would still need to be preparing for the future, but it would really take the pressure off the new GM and HC to have that position solved for at least 3-4 years.
the thing is, all positions are going to want their slice of that new cap money, every position is going to want to reset their positional cap marks, so the notion that our cap situation will improve and we will be able handle KC at 40+ like he wants as well as rebuild the D and IOL enough to be competitive over the term of his new contract is IMO unlikely.
Kirk is NOT going to give a hometown discount. He is a mercenary, end of story. He will want $40-45 million.
Fuck that, I'd pay a Minshew or Bridgewater half that and end up at .500 with better options and potential picks.
well to be fair, hes not from the area so hometown discount isnt really in play for the VIkings...maybe could trade him to the lions and he would play ball. :p
IMO its up to Kirk, you put this offer in front of him and if he balks then you light up the phone lines of every team in the league that might be in the QB market and even some that you wouldnt think would be. If he doesnt want to show that he is willing to help build a winner here, then move on now.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ comet52 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Riphawkins said:
@ bigbone62 said:
From 2015 which was Cousins first year as the full time starter to 2020, Stafford's last year in Detroit here are their numbers. Pretty obvious why the comparison. Obvious if you are going off of real things and not clichés ole football coaches use that is. Numbers that are bolded are categories they bested the other QB in.
Stafford
Games: 88
W-L: 39-48-1
Comp %:65.6
Passing Yards: 23,395
Rushing Yards: 713
Total Yards: 24,108
QB Rating: 96.2
Passing TDs: 151
Rushing TDs: 3
Total TDs: 154
INT’s: 59
Fumbles Lost: 3
Total Turnovers:62
Turnover Differential: +92
Playoffs: 0-1
Cousins
Games: 95
W-L: 49-44-2
Comp %: 68
Passing Yards: 25,342
Rushing Yards: 665
Total Yards: 26,007
QB Rating: 100.5
Passing TD’s: 172
Rushing TD’S: 16
Total TD’s 188
INT’s: 65
Fumbles Lost: 5
Total Turnovers: 70
Turnover Differential: +118
Playoffs: 1-2
Looks like Cousins is better, and I’m not being a smart ass.
Watched a couple of Rams games this year and Stafford didn’t look great, but that throw near the end of the game in Tampa Bay was a thing of beauty.
Cousins can make that throw.
I would be careful comparing Stafford to Cousins, its an easy comparison based on the stats/number of year in the league. At the end of the day they both get from point A to point B but do it in very different ways.
Kirk is more methodical while Stafford is much more aggressive and opportunistic. Physically speaking, Kirk can make all the throws Stafford game. But when it matters most Kirk's stats on his first read are good while it all falls apart once he gets to his second and third read. Stafford is equally as good through his third ready. All that means is he's better when the play breaks down. The more meaningful difference is when you look at 3rd and moderate scenarios. Kirk more often than not throws short of the sticks. Stafford more often throws it beyond the sticks by 5 yards. Point there is that although Stafford throws more INTs, he's attempting more difficult throws when it actually matters.
So to get back to the throw against TB. Yes, Kirk can make that throw. But he is never attempting it.
There's clearly a difference, going all the way back to one guy drafted first overall while the other was a fourth round project.
Regardless, my concern is KOC/KAM betting their new careers on Kirk. He is not worth that big of a bet imo.
But their choices are KC, a draft pick not ready to play or one of: Mannion, Mond, Jameis, Trubisky or Mariota.
That last option feels like less than purgatory to me.
I think there is a fine line they can try to thread by keeping Kirk and finding his replacement. There is the short-term and the long-term view and to your point not many "great" alternatives.
In my mind the worst case scenario is you give up Kirk via trade without a known commodity to replace him. It just doesn't make sense. The fans will clamor "draft a franchise guy". Let me be blunt for a second, the chance you ultimately draft someone better than Kirk is like 20% or less. You should try but its no guarantee.
The second worse case scenario is they simply throw their arms up in the air and say "well I guess we need to give Kirk whatever he wants". That really does you no good either since he wants >$40M a year fully guaranteed, again. It just doesn't allow you to spread the cap hits out the way you really need to for success.
My best guess is that they look into drafting a QB this or next year. But they'll allow Kirk to play out the last year of his deal at $45M and spread the cap impact out a bit. You need to see Kirk in O'Connells offense before you give up on him. But I don't think you want to commit either. Play out the year and see where you are at. If you draft a QB, you can balance Kirk against a known alternative vs. the unknown. If you don't, well you have a better basis to really say if Kirk is or isn't the long-term QB. Its just easier to sign up for $40+M/yr with some success under the new coach. You run the risk of him going to free agency but if the Vikings will pay market rate a year from now there isn't much additional leverage to gain in that for Kirk.
I hate the notion of letting him play out the contract and walking with no compensation at all at the end of 22. what is his market in terms of picks in your opinion? There are lots of speculation, but what are we really talking about here?
I don't think it palatable to give him a 2 year $45M/yr extension right now. If there was a great solution available they would go down that route.
As of today to get any sort of trade done you likely need to eat $15-20M in salary. From there you would likely get a 2nd round pick back. You would also need to turn around and sign a stop-gap veteran for $10M or so. By the time you keep $25M or so in dead money plus sign a veteran, you're awfully close to Kirks 2022 cap number. So you're getting drastically worse for a 2nd round pick.
Alternative is if you move the money around and create say $10M in space, you get Kirk in 2022, you get to see what he can do in the offense, and you get the option of signing him to an extension or not at the end of the year. So you're either convinced at that point Kirk is the guy or you let him walk and get a 3rd round compensation pick. I would argue seeing him for a season + a 3rd is > no QB and a 2nd.
Thinking Kirk and the Vikings are going to shake hands on a deal under $40M this off-season is a pipe-dream. So you can take that option out of the running.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ comet52 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Riphawkins said:
@ bigbone62 said:
From 2015 which was Cousins first year as the full time starter to 2020, Stafford's last year in Detroit here are their numbers. Pretty obvious why the comparison. Obvious if you are going off of real things and not clichés ole football coaches use that is. Numbers that are bolded are categories they bested the other QB in.
Stafford
Games: 88
W-L: 39-48-1
Comp %:65.6
Passing Yards: 23,395
Rushing Yards: 713
Total Yards: 24,108
QB Rating: 96.2
Passing TDs: 151
Rushing TDs: 3
Total TDs: 154
INT’s: 59
Fumbles Lost: 3
Total Turnovers:62
Turnover Differential: +92
Playoffs: 0-1
Cousins
Games: 95
W-L: 49-44-2
Comp %: 68
Passing Yards: 25,342
Rushing Yards: 665
Total Yards: 26,007
QB Rating: 100.5
Passing TD’s: 172
Rushing TD’S: 16
Total TD’s 188
INT’s: 65
Fumbles Lost: 5
Total Turnovers: 70
Turnover Differential: +118
Playoffs: 1-2
Looks like Cousins is better, and I’m not being a smart ass.
Watched a couple of Rams games this year and Stafford didn’t look great, but that throw near the end of the game in Tampa Bay was a thing of beauty.
Cousins can make that throw.
I would be careful comparing Stafford to Cousins, its an easy comparison based on the stats/number of year in the league. At the end of the day they both get from point A to point B but do it in very different ways.
Kirk is more methodical while Stafford is much more aggressive and opportunistic. Physically speaking, Kirk can make all the throws Stafford game. But when it matters most Kirk's stats on his first read are good while it all falls apart once he gets to his second and third read. Stafford is equally as good through his third ready. All that means is he's better when the play breaks down. The more meaningful difference is when you look at 3rd and moderate scenarios. Kirk more often than not throws short of the sticks. Stafford more often throws it beyond the sticks by 5 yards. Point there is that although Stafford throws more INTs, he's attempting more difficult throws when it actually matters.
So to get back to the throw against TB. Yes, Kirk can make that throw. But he is never attempting it.
There's clearly a difference, going all the way back to one guy drafted first overall while the other was a fourth round project.
Regardless, my concern is KOC/KAM betting their new careers on Kirk. He is not worth that big of a bet imo.
But their choices are KC, a draft pick not ready to play or one of: Mannion, Mond, Jameis, Trubisky or Mariota.
That last option feels like less than purgatory to me.
I think there is a fine line they can try to thread by keeping Kirk and finding his replacement. There is the short-term and the long-term view and to your point not many "great" alternatives.
In my mind the worst case scenario is you give up Kirk via trade without a known commodity to replace him. It just doesn't make sense. The fans will clamor "draft a franchise guy". Let me be blunt for a second, the chance you ultimately draft someone better than Kirk is like 20% or less. You should try but its no guarantee.
The second worse case scenario is they simply throw their arms up in the air and say "well I guess we need to give Kirk whatever he wants". That really does you no good either since he wants >$40M a year fully guaranteed, again. It just doesn't allow you to spread the cap hits out the way you really need to for success.
My best guess is that they look into drafting a QB this or next year. But they'll allow Kirk to play out the last year of his deal at $45M and spread the cap impact out a bit. You need to see Kirk in O'Connells offense before you give up on him. But I don't think you want to commit either. Play out the year and see where you are at. If you draft a QB, you can balance Kirk against a known alternative vs. the unknown. If you don't, well you have a better basis to really say if Kirk is or isn't the long-term QB. Its just easier to sign up for $40+M/yr with some success under the new coach. You run the risk of him going to free agency but if the Vikings will pay market rate a year from now there isn't much additional leverage to gain in that for Kirk.
I hate the notion of letting him play out the contract and walking with no compensation at all at the end of 22. what is his market in terms of picks in your opinion? There are lots of speculation, but what are we really talking about here?
I don't think it palatable to give him a 2 year $45M/yr extension right now. If there was a great solution available they would go down that route.
As of today to get any sort of trade done you likely need to eat $15-20M in salary. From there you would likely get a 2nd round pick back. You would also need to turn around and sign a stop-gap veteran for $10M or so. By the time you keep $25M or so in dead money plus sign a veteran, you're awfully close to Kirks 2022 cap number. So you're getting drastically worse for a 2nd round pick.
Alternative is if you move the money around and create say $10M in space, you get Kirk in 2022, you get to see what he can do in the offense, and you get the option of signing him to an extension or not at the end of the year. So you're either convinced at that point Kirk is the guy or you let him walk and get a 3rd round compensation pick. I would argue seeing him for a season + a 3rd is > no QB and a 2nd.
Thinking Kirk and the Vikings are going to shake hands on a deal under $40M this off-season is a pipe-dream. So you can take that option out of the running.
Why would you assess his trade value at only a 2nd round pick? Based on the Stafford trade and that Kirk is more durable then Garoppolo and won't cost as much in trade as Watson, I'd think the Vikings could easily get a 1st round pick in return this year (Washington, Cleveland, Carolina, or Denver) and more. He'd easily be the most tradable and wanted QB on the trade market this offseason.
Quote:@"Geoff Nichols" said:@ JimmyinSD said: @"Geoff Nichols" said: @ purplefaithful said: @ comet52 said: @"Geoff Nichols" said: @ Riphawkins said: @ bigbone62 said:From 2015 which was Cousins first year as the full time starter to 2020, Stafford's last year in Detroit here are their numbers. Pretty obvious why the comparison. Obvious if you are going off of real things and not clichés ole football coaches use that is. Numbers that are bolded are categories they bested the other QB in.
Stafford
Games: 88
W-L: 39-48-1
Comp %:65.6
Passing Yards: 23,395
Rushing Yards: 713
Total Yards: 24,108
QB Rating: 96.2
Passing TDs: 151
Rushing TDs: 3
Total TDs: 154
INT’s: 59
Fumbles Lost: 3
Total Turnovers:62
Turnover Differential: +92
Playoffs: 0-1
Cousins
Games: 95
W-L: 49-44-2
Comp %: 68
Passing Yards: 25,342
Rushing Yards: 665
Total Yards: 26,007
QB Rating: 100.5
Passing TD’s: 172
Rushing TD’S: 16
Total TD’s 188
INT’s: 65
Fumbles Lost: 5
Total Turnovers: 70
Turnover Differential: +118
Playoffs: 1-2
Looks like Cousins is better, and I’m not being a smart ass.
Watched a couple of Rams games this year and Stafford didn’t look great, but that throw near the end of the game in Tampa Bay was a thing of beauty.
Cousins can make that throw.
I would be careful comparing Stafford to Cousins, its an easy comparison based on the stats/number of year in the league. At the end of the day they both get from point A to point B but do it in very different ways.
Kirk is more methodical while Stafford is much more aggressive and opportunistic. Physically speaking, Kirk can make all the throws Stafford game. But when it matters most Kirk's stats on his first read are good while it all falls apart once he gets to his second and third read. Stafford is equally as good through his third ready. All that means is he's better when the play breaks down. The more meaningful difference is when you look at 3rd and moderate scenarios. Kirk more often than not throws short of the sticks. Stafford more often throws it beyond the sticks by 5 yards. Point there is that although Stafford throws more INTs, he's attempting more difficult throws when it actually matters.
So to get back to the throw against TB. Yes, Kirk can make that throw. But he is never attempting it.
There's clearly a difference, going all the way back to one guy drafted first overall while the other was a fourth round project.
Regardless, my concern is KOC/KAM betting their new careers on Kirk. He is not worth that big of a bet imo.
But their choices are KC, a draft pick not ready to play or one of: Mannion, Mond, Jameis, Trubisky or Mariota.
That last option feels like less than purgatory to me.
I think there is a fine line they can try to thread by keeping Kirk and finding his replacement. There is the short-term and the long-term view and to your point not many "great" alternatives.
In my mind the worst case scenario is you give up Kirk via trade without a known commodity to replace him. It just doesn't make sense. The fans will clamor "draft a franchise guy". Let me be blunt for a second, the chance you ultimately draft someone better than Kirk is
I don't think it palatable to give him a 2 year $45M/yr extension right now. If there was a great solution available they would go down that route.
As of today to get any sort of trade done you likely need to eat $15-20M in salary. From there you would likely get a 2nd round pick back. You would also need to turn around and sign a stop-gap veteran for $10M or so. By the time you keep $25M or so in dead money plus sign a veteran, you're awfully close to Kirks 2022 cap number. So you're getting drastically worse for a 2nd round pick.
Alternative is if you move the money around and create say $10M in space, you get Kirk in 2022, you get to see what he can do in the offense, and you get the option of signing him to an extension or not at the end of the year. So you're either convinced at that point Kirk is the guy or you let him walk and get a 3rd round compensation pick. I would argue seeing him for a season + a 3rd is > no QB and a 2nd.
Thinking Kirk and the Vikings are going to shake hands on a deal under $40M this off-season is a pipe-dream. So you can take that option out of the running.
And even if we have to eat $15 to $20 million in dead money on a trade, it still opens cap room for this season and going forward, so I don't see that as a huge concern. And is Mond that awful where we need to sign a stop gap veteran or not just draft another QB this season to compete with Mond? I'd go that route before signing another quarterback in free agency
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ comet52 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Riphawkins said:
@ bigbone62 said:
From 2015 which was Cousins first year as the full time starter to 2020, Stafford's last year in Detroit here are their numbers. Pretty obvious why the comparison. Obvious if you are going off of real things and not clichés ole football coaches use that is. Numbers that are bolded are categories they bested the other QB in.
Stafford
Games: 88
W-L: 39-48-1
Comp %:65.6
Passing Yards: 23,395
Rushing Yards: 713
Total Yards: 24,108
QB Rating: 96.2
Passing TDs: 151
Rushing TDs: 3
Total TDs: 154
INT’s: 59
Fumbles Lost: 3
Total Turnovers:62
Turnover Differential: +92
Playoffs: 0-1
Cousins
Games: 95
W-L: 49-44-2
Comp %: 68
Passing Yards: 25,342
Rushing Yards: 665
Total Yards: 26,007
QB Rating: 100.5
Passing TD’s: 172
Rushing TD’S: 16
Total TD’s 188
INT’s: 65
Fumbles Lost: 5
Total Turnovers: 70
Turnover Differential: +118
Playoffs: 1-2
Looks like Cousins is better, and I’m not being a smart ass.
Watched a couple of Rams games this year and Stafford didn’t look great, but that throw near the end of the game in Tampa Bay was a thing of beauty.
Cousins can make that throw.
I would be careful comparing Stafford to Cousins, its an easy comparison based on the stats/number of year in the league. At the end of the day they both get from point A to point B but do it in very different ways.
Kirk is more methodical while Stafford is much more aggressive and opportunistic. Physically speaking, Kirk can make all the throws Stafford game. But when it matters most Kirk's stats on his first read are good while it all falls apart once he gets to his second and third read. Stafford is equally as good through his third ready. All that means is he's better when the play breaks down. The more meaningful difference is when you look at 3rd and moderate scenarios. Kirk more often than not throws short of the sticks. Stafford more often throws it beyond the sticks by 5 yards. Point there is that although Stafford throws more INTs, he's attempting more difficult throws when it actually matters.
So to get back to the throw against TB. Yes, Kirk can make that throw. But he is never attempting it.
There's clearly a difference, going all the way back to one guy drafted first overall while the other was a fourth round project.
Regardless, my concern is KOC/KAM betting their new careers on Kirk. He is not worth that big of a bet imo.
But their choices are KC, a draft pick not ready to play or one of: Mannion, Mond, Jameis, Trubisky or Mariota.
That last option feels like less than purgatory to me.
I think there is a fine line they can try to thread by keeping Kirk and finding his replacement. There is the short-term and the long-term view and to your point not many "great" alternatives.
In my mind the worst case scenario is you give up Kirk via trade without a known commodity to replace him. It just doesn't make sense. The fans will clamor "draft a franchise guy". Let me be blunt for a second, the chance you ultimately draft someone better than Kirk is like 20% or less. You should try but its no guarantee.
The second worse case scenario is they simply throw their arms up in the air and say "well I guess we need to give Kirk whatever he wants". That really does you no good either since he wants >$40M a year fully guaranteed, again. It just doesn't allow you to spread the cap hits out the way you really need to for success.
My best guess is that they look into drafting a QB this or next year. But they'll allow Kirk to play out the last year of his deal at $45M and spread the cap impact out a bit. You need to see Kirk in O'Connells offense before you give up on him. But I don't think you want to commit either. Play out the year and see where you are at. If you draft a QB, you can balance Kirk against a known alternative vs. the unknown. If you don't, well you have a better basis to really say if Kirk is or isn't the long-term QB. Its just easier to sign up for $40+M/yr with some success under the new coach. You run the risk of him going to free agency but if the Vikings will pay market rate a year from now there isn't much additional leverage to gain in that for Kirk.
I hate the notion of letting him play out the contract and walking with no compensation at all at the end of 22. what is his market in terms of picks in your opinion? There are lots of speculation, but what are we really talking about here?
I don't think it palatable to give him a 2 year $45M/yr extension right now. If there was a great solution available they would go down that route.
As of today to get any sort of trade done you likely need to eat $15-20M in salary. From there you would likely get a 2nd round pick back. You would also need to turn around and sign a stop-gap veteran for $10M or so. By the time you keep $25M or so in dead money plus sign a veteran, you're awfully close to Kirks 2022 cap number. So you're getting drastically worse for a 2nd round pick.
Alternative is if you move the money around and create say $10M in space, you get Kirk in 2022, you get to see what he can do in the offense, and you get the option of signing him to an extension or not at the end of the year. So you're either convinced at that point Kirk is the guy or you let him walk and get a 3rd round compensation pick. I would argue seeing him for a season + a 3rd is > no QB and a 2nd.
Thinking Kirk and the Vikings are going to shake hands on a deal under $40M this off-season is a pipe-dream. So you can take that option out of the running.
Why would you assess his trade value at only a 2nd round pick? Based on the Stafford trade and that Kirk is more durable then Garoppolo and won't cost as much in trade as Watson, I'd think the Vikings could easily get a 1st round pick in return this year (Washington, Cleveland, Carolina, or Denver) and more. He'd easily be the most tradable and wanted QB on the trade market this offseason.
Although Kirk is good, nobody is going to give up a 1 or quality asset when there is no control over the player. Although the Vikings can opt to trade Kirk anywhere, he could simply say he wants to test FA in 2023 and leave. He also doesn't need to sign an extension this off-season either. Basically, Kirk doesn't have a no-trade clause but he controls everything since he can't be tagged next off-season.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ comet52 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Riphawkins said:
@ bigbone62 said:
From 2015 which was Cousins first year as the full time starter to 2020, Stafford's last year in Detroit here are their numbers. Pretty obvious why the comparison. Obvious if you are going off of real things and not clichés ole football coaches use that is. Numbers that are bolded are categories they bested the other QB in.
Stafford
Games: 88
W-L: 39-48-1
Comp %:65.6
Passing Yards: 23,395
Rushing Yards: 713
Total Yards: 24,108
QB Rating: 96.2
Passing TDs: 151
Rushing TDs: 3
Total TDs: 154
INT’s: 59
Fumbles Lost: 3
Total Turnovers:62
Turnover Differential: +92
Playoffs: 0-1
Cousins
Games: 95
W-L: 49-44-2
Comp %: 68
Passing Yards: 25,342
Rushing Yards: 665
Total Yards: 26,007
QB Rating: 100.5
Passing TD’s: 172
Rushing TD’S: 16
Total TD’s 188
INT’s: 65
Fumbles Lost: 5
Total Turnovers: 70
Turnover Differential: +118
Playoffs: 1-2
Looks like Cousins is better, and I’m not being a smart ass.
Watched a couple of Rams games this year and Stafford didn’t look great, but that throw near the end of the game in Tampa Bay was a thing of beauty.
Cousins can make that throw.
I would be careful comparing Stafford to Cousins, its an easy comparison based on the stats/number of year in the league. At the end of the day they both get from point A to point B but do it in very different ways.
Kirk is more methodical while Stafford is much more aggressive and opportunistic. Physically speaking, Kirk can make all the throws Stafford game. But when it matters most Kirk's stats on his first read are good while it all falls apart once he gets to his second and third read. Stafford is equally as good through his third ready. All that means is he's better when the play breaks down. The more meaningful difference is when you look at 3rd and moderate scenarios. Kirk more often than not throws short of the sticks. Stafford more often throws it beyond the sticks by 5 yards. Point there is that although Stafford throws more INTs, he's attempting more difficult throws when it actually matters.
So to get back to the throw against TB. Yes, Kirk can make that throw. But he is never attempting it.
There's clearly a difference, going all the way back to one guy drafted first overall while the other was a fourth round project.
Regardless, my concern is KOC/KAM betting their new careers on Kirk. He is not worth that big of a
Although Kirk is good, nobody is going to give up a 1 or quality asset when there is no control over the player. Although the Vikings can opt to trade Kirk anywhere, he could simply say he wants to test FA in 2023 and leave. He also doesn't need to sign an extension this off-season either. Basically, Kirk doesn't have a no-trade clause but he controls everything since he can't be tagged next off-season.
That's understandable but I just assumed any trade would come with an extension as that would also be in Kirk's best interest in getting the contract he wants if he and the Vikings can't come to terms. Testing the market worked out for him when he signed with the Vikings, but at almost 34 (35 prior to 2023 season) I don't think gambling and playing the year out without an extension would be in his best interest especially with the upcoming draft class considered so strong.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ comet52 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Riphawkins said:
@ bigbone62 said:
From 2015 which was Cousins first year as the full time starter to 2020, Stafford's last year in Detroit here are their numbers. Pretty obvious why the comparison. Obvious if you are going off of real things and not clichés ole football coaches use that is. Numbers that are bolded are categories they bested the other QB in.
Stafford
Games: 88
W-L: 39-48-1
Comp %:65.6
Passing Yards: 23,395
Rushing Yards: 713
Total Yards: 24,108
QB Rating: 96.2
Passing TDs: 151
Rushing TDs: 3
Total TDs: 154
INT’s: 59
Fumbles Lost: 3
Total Turnovers:62
Turnover Differential: +92
Playoffs: 0-1
Cousins
Games: 95
W-L: 49-44-2
Comp %: 68
Passing Yards: 25,342
Rushing Yards: 665
Total Yards: 26,007
QB Rating: 100.5
Passing TD’s: 172
Rushing TD’S: 16
Total TD’s 188
INT’s: 65
Fumbles Lost: 5
Total Turnovers: 70
Turnover Differential: +118
Playoffs: 1-2
Looks like Cousins is better, and I’m not being a smart ass.
Watched a couple of Rams games this year and Stafford didn’t look great, but that throw near the end of the game in Tampa Bay was a thing of beauty.
Cousins can make that throw.
I would be careful comparing Stafford to Cousins, its an easy comparison based on the stats/number of year in the league. At the end of the day they both get from point A to point B but do it in very different ways.
Kirk is more methodical while Stafford is much more aggressive and opportunistic. Physically speaking, Kirk can make all the throws Stafford game. But when it matters most Kirk's stats on his first read are good while it all falls apart once he gets to his second and third read. Stafford is equally as good through his third ready. All that means is he's better when the play breaks down. The more meaningful difference is when you look at 3rd and moderate scenarios. Kirk more often than not throws short of the sticks. Stafford more often throws it beyond the sticks by 5 yards. Point there is that although Stafford throws more INTs, he's attempting more difficult throws when it actually matters.
So to get back to the throw against TB. Yes, Kirk can make that throw. But he is never attempting it.
There's clearly a difference, going all the way back to one guy drafted first overall while the other was a fourth round project.
Regardless, my concern is KOC/KAM betting their new careers on Kirk. He is not worth that big of a bet imo.
But their choices are KC, a draft pick not ready to play or one of: Mannion, Mond, Jameis, Trubisky or Mariota.
That last option feels like less than purgatory to me.
I hate the notion of letting him play out the contract and walking with no compensation at all at the end of 22. what is his market in terms of picks in your opinion? There are lots of speculation, but what are we really talking about here?
I don't think it palatable to give him a 2 year $45M/yr extension right now. If there was a great solution available they would go down that route.
As of today to get any sort of trade done you likely need to eat $15-20M in salary. From there you would likely get a 2nd round pick back. You would also need to turn around and sign a stop-gap veteran for $10M or so. By the time you keep $25M or so in dead money plus sign a veteran, you're awfully close to Kirks 2022 cap number. So you're getting drastically worse for a 2nd round pick.
Alternative is if you move the money around and create say $10M in space, you get Kirk in 2022, you get to see what he can do in the offense, and you get the option of signing him to an extension or not at the end of the year. So you're either convinced at that point Kirk is the guy or you let him walk and get a 3rd round compensation pick. I would argue seeing him for a season + a 3rd is > no QB and a 2nd.
Thinking Kirk and the Vikings are going to shake hands on a deal under $40M this off-season is a pipe-dream. So you can take that option out of the running.
Why would you assess his trade value at only a 2nd round pick? Based on the Stafford trade and that Kirk is more durable then Garoppolo and won't cost as much in trade as Watson, I'd think the Vikings could easily get a 1st round pick in return this year (Washington, Cleveland, Carolina, or Denver) and more. He'd easily be the most tradable and wanted QB on the trade market this offseason.
Although Kirk is good, nobody is going to give up a 1 or quality asset when there is no control over the player. Although the Vikings can opt to trade Kirk anywhere, he could simply say he wants to test FA in 2023 and leave. He also doesn't need to sign an extension this off-season either. Basically, Kirk doesn't have a no-trade clause but he controls everything since he can't be tagged next off-season.
A 2nd! :p
Heard for months from fans saying that we'd get a 2022 first+ or even multiple firsts. Pipe!
I think your assessment sounds about right and so does your reasoning for declining the 2nd and just keeping Kirk. My own pipedream hope is if the Vikings are moving him, they can get some team to give up a 2023 1st rather than a 2022 2nd. Probably unlikely but might be the best to hope for and would help us more if we're going to be bad in 2022 anyways.
Quote: @pattersaur said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ comet52 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Riphawkins said:
@ bigbone62 said:
From 2015 which was Cousins first year as the full time starter to 2020, Stafford's last year in Detroit here are their numbers. Pretty obvious why the comparison. Obvious if you are going off of real things and not clichés ole football coaches use that is. Numbers that are bolded are categories they bested the other QB in.
Stafford
Games: 88
W-L: 39-48-1
Comp %:65.6
Passing Yards: 23,395
Rushing Yards: 713
Total Yards: 24,108
QB Rating: 96.2
Passing TDs: 151
Rushing TDs: 3
Total TDs: 154
INT’s: 59
Fumbles Lost: 3
Total Turnovers:62
Turnover Differential: +92
Playoffs: 0-1
Cousins
Games: 95
W-L: 49-44-2
Comp %: 68
Passing Yards: 25,342
Rushing Yards: 665
Total Yards: 26,007
QB Rating: 100.5
Passing TD’s: 172
Rushing TD’S: 16
Total TD’s 188
INT’s: 65
Fumbles Lost: 5
Total Turnovers: 70
Turnover Differential: +118
Playoffs: 1-2
Looks like Cousins is better, and I’m not being a smart ass.
Watched a couple of Rams games this year and Stafford didn’t look great, but that throw near the end of the game in Tampa Bay was a thing of beauty.
Cousins can make that throw.
I would be careful comparing Stafford to Cousins, its an easy comparison based on the stats/number of year in the league. At the end of the day they both get from point A to point B but do it in very different ways.
Kirk is more methodical while Stafford is much more aggressive and opportunistic. Physically speaking, Kirk can make all the throws Stafford game. But when it matters most Kirk's stats on his first read are good while it all falls apart once he gets to his second and third read. Stafford is equally as good through his third ready. All that means is he's better when the play breaks down. The more meaningful difference is when you look at 3rd and moderate scenarios. Kirk more often than not throws short of the sticks. Stafford more often throws it beyond the sticks by 5 yards. Point there is that although Stafford throws more INTs, he's attempting more difficult throws when it actually matters.
So to get back to the throw against TB. Yes, Kirk can make that throw. But he is never attempting it.
There's clearly a difference, going all the way back to one guy drafted first overall while the other was a fourth round project.
Regardless, my concern is KOC/KAM betting their new careers on Kirk. He is not worth that big of a bet imo.
But their choices are KC, a draft pick not ready to play or one of: Mannion, Mond, Jameis, Trubisky or Mariota.
That last option feels like less than purgatory to me.
I hate the notion of letting him play out the contract and walking with no compensation at all at the end of 22. what is his market in terms of picks in your opinion? There are lots of speculation, but what are we really talking about here?
I don't think it palatable to give him a 2 year $45M/yr extension right now. If there was a great solution available they would go down that route.
As of today to get any sort of trade done you likely need to eat $15-20M in salary. From there you would likely get a 2nd round pick back. You would also need to turn around and sign a stop-gap veteran for $10M or so. By the time you keep $25M or so in dead money plus sign a veteran, you're awfully close to Kirks 2022 cap number. So you're getting drastically worse for a 2nd round pick.
Alternative is if you move the money around and create say $10M in space, you get Kirk in 2022, you get to see what he can do in the offense, and you get the option of signing him to an extension or not at the end of the year. So you're either convinced at that point Kirk is the guy or you let him walk and get a 3rd round compensation pick. I would argue seeing him for a season + a 3rd is > no QB and a 2nd.
Thinking Kirk and the Vikings are going to shake hands on a deal under $40M this off-season is a pipe-dream. So you can take that option out of the running.
Why would you assess his trade value at only a 2nd round pick? Based on the Stafford trade and that Kirk is more durable then Garoppolo and won't cost as much in trade as Watson, I'd think the Vikings could easily get a 1st round pick in return this year (Washington, Cleveland, Carolina, or Denver) and more. He'd easily be the most tradable and wanted QB on the trade market this offseason.
Although Kirk is good, nobody is going to give up a 1 or quality asset when there is no control over the player. Although the Vikings can opt to trade Kirk anywhere, he could simply say he wants to test FA in 2023 and leave. He also doesn't need to sign an extension this off-season either. Basically, Kirk doesn't have a no-trade clause but he controls everything since he can't be tagged next off-season.
A 2nd! :p
Heard for months from fans saying that we'd get a 2022 first+ or even multiple firsts. Pipe!
I think your assessment sounds about right and so does your reasoning for declining the 2nd and just keeping Kirk. My own pipedream hope is if the Vikings are moving him, they can get some team to give up a 2023 1st rather than a 2022 2nd. Probably unlikely but might be the best to hope for and would help us more if we're going to be bad in 2022 anyways.
I think it's a 2nd or 3rd if it's just for one year. It'd be more if an extension was included in the trade...however that would be done I do not know
Quote: @Zanary said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@ Zanary said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
Teams that Cousins has been the starter for have made the playoffs 2 times in 7 years and never consecutively. But there are always excuses.
The offensive line, the defense, the coaching, the scheme, etc.
At the end of the day, the playoff appearances is on his resume forever.
It would be asinine for the current regime to invest multiple additional years in this dude that for one reason or another, doesn't get his team to the playoffs.
I think that with the current draft and the lack of free agents that they should let him play it out.
They can absorb the 45M cap hit or ask him to add one void year to move some dead money to 2023.
If he is able to get his team to the playoffs, then they can talk extension in 2023.
If not, then they'll have tons of cap space and can figure it out.
The last two men who invested a ton of cap space and multiple years in this QB got fired.
But many Vikings fans want to continue to invest in this QB and expect that the team is going to improve the pass rush, corners, run defense, and interior offensive line pass blocking this year in free agency and the draft.
Good luck with all of that.
I am hoping and praying that this team can just get into the freaking playoffs in 2022.
Some considerations:
When an o-line is typically in the bottom quarter of the league rankings, that's no longer an excuse, it's a reason. A play can't develop if the defense lives in the backfield, something functional fans understand and others strangely find unimportant. This is beyond baffling.
Some of the Cousins Hate Mafia like to point to the Bengals' bad line as an excuse to hate out on Cousins, yet it took a mis-called "fumble" for them to beat us...and that line ultimately cost Cincy the big game.
Similarly, when the defense is rated in the same region as the Leslie Frazier era...and our coach is a "defensive guru" who has gotten to do a LOT of defensive player shopping/coaching during his tenure...that team isn't going to the postseason. That's a helluva reason. If you require clarification, re-watch the end of the loss to Detroit, or go back a season to Kamara running for 6 TDs through Zimmer's defense.
REASONS.
The team gets itself to the playoffs, not one dude. That said:
The infamous cap hit came from him allowing him to restructure some of his money away from 2020, to help the team then. That barely gets mentioned, because haters are...well, themselves.
Do they ever wonder why we could never seem to keep OCs, or accurate kickers...or build a consistent OL around our QBs? Keenum lucked out, but his history before and after 2017 shows that season to be a one-off. Philly kinda nailed that down.
Regarding our consistently productive, consistently under center, dork of a QB?
He's not perfect, and he's actually a mystery to me in some ways. In Washington, he was on a team with known bipolar ownership and was treated like crap because they'd been all-in on RGIII. With Minnesota, the OL has been rated as junk all 4 years, the defense has declined, and the head coach has been increasingly proven to be both obsolete and a petulant little jerk. I don't actually know what he'll look like with an offensively-effective coaching staff, real support from same, and more allowances to do things like "audible" and have input on plays, etc.
The entire team, and the new staff, are basically auditioning this season. I'd prefer, for cap reasons, for them to find an extension that gives both financial relief and continuity that would be a breath of fresh air after the recent mess.
It reads as if you are trying to call me a hater. I do not post here much after leaving Purple Thoughts but this is a good reason as to why.
Here is a little silly off season plan I wrote for the Daily Norseman back in 2018 BEFORE the Vikings signed Cousins. Fans there were saying the team could not afford him and wanted to show that they could. I was a fan of the initial signing.
https://www.dailynorseman.com/2018/2/8/1...qb-edition
I disagree 100% about him allowing a restructure. It was an extension plain and simple. The team did not need the 10M in cap savings as they proved it when they traded for Yannick Ngakoue and then traded him away 7 weeks (or so) into the season while paying Yannick 7M in that time frame.
A person does not have to be hater to believe the team should move on from this QB.
I think when there are many huge, known, and obvious reasons with the team that both affect Cousins negatively and are utterly out of his control, labeling them as "excuses" is something of a tell.
You consider it a tell because you think it is about the QB.
It does not matter who is or was the QB the last 4 years.
The strategy of paying top dollar for a QB has failed.
It's not about the QB for me.
The two men who undertook this strategy got let go.
I would not want start my tenure spending big on a QB with so many other areas needing fixes.
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