Quote: @Knucklehead said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said: Signing on with Cousins for five more campaigns is bold, rest assured. He’s a divisive player, so about 20% of the Vikings fanbase would sour on Adofo-Mensah and O’Connell – like instantly – if Cousins was inked for five more hurrahs. Yet, these are fresh eyes and minds on the scene. The Wilfs hired who they considered the best and brightest. If the twosome wants to extend Cousins for a long time – or trade him elsewhere – one should probably afford the benefit of the doubt.
Yeah, let's take a FAN poll before making a decision. LOL.
When it comes right down to it, and you weigh the ups and downs of all the options, a long-term extension with void years is probably the best. It allows us to add a few pieces to the defense and compete for a title in '22 and '23. Trade a player for a '23 pick, trade down in '22 for a '23 pick. Do whatever you have to do to maneuver into a high pick in '23. Draft the QB then. If you miss, you still have Cousins. If you hit, Cousins can be traded or voided.
But if the plan is to draft the QBOTF in the 23 draft, doesn't it make sense to trade KC for picks which will allow you the ammo to move into the top 10 to draft that QB?
Yes, if you don't want or plan to be competitive in '22. It sounds like the team, from ownership to the coaching staff, thinks they can be. I agree. But we'll find out soon enough what they REALLY think. Personally, I think our best chance to win a championship in the next five years is with Kirk Cousins at the helm.
But to hedge that bet, it would be a good idea to target '23 as the year to draft the QBOTF. But it doesn't necessarily require a Cousins trade to do that. They can trade Hunter or Harry or Kendricks or Bradbury or Thielen or Dalvin. Some are worth a lot; some are worth a little, but any of them would bring additional ammo. You can also trade #12 down for a '23 pick. You can also trade the '22 2nd rounder for a '23 1st. You can also trade future picks once we get to '23. All of these would be preferable to trading the starting QB, leaving Cook, JJ and company to slag through a couple seasons with a bridge QB and/or a rookie.
Because the truth remains that you don't know what you're going to get when you take a QB in the draft, even in the 1st round. Great if he's Herbert or Allen, but the odds say it's far more likely he's Tua, Love, Jones, Haskins, Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen, Wentz, Goff, Mariota, Winston, etc....
I'm convinced the Vikings would never trade their top 10 QB who's never hurt for what's behind door number 3. That's a good way to get yourself fired. But what they MIGHT do is keep Cousins, extend him, add void years, THEN draft what's behind the door. That way, if you hit, you trade Cousins for picks then. If you don't, you still have a top 10 QB who's never hurt.
I think the biggest difference between the opinions on the board about what to do divide among those who think this is a talented roster and let's find out what a new coach, new schemes and a couple of new starters can do...and those who think we're "far away" and should rebuild. I don't understand the 2nd group, but I know there are those who think that.
From 2015 which was Cousins first year as the full time starter to 2020, Stafford's last year in Detroit here are their numbers. Pretty obvious why the comparison. Obvious if you are going off of real things and not clichés ole football coaches use that is. Numbers that are bolded are categories they bested the other QB in.
Stafford
Games: 88
W-L: 39-48-1
Comp %:65.6
Passing Yards: 23,395
Rushing Yards: 713
Total Yards: 24,108
QB Rating: 96.2
Passing TDs: 151
Rushing TDs: 3
Total TDs: 154
INT’s: 59
Fumbles Lost: 3
Total Turnovers:62
Turnover Differential: +92
Playoffs: 0-1
Cousins
Games: 95
W-L: 49-44-2
Comp %: 68
Passing Yards: 25,342
Rushing Yards: 665
Total Yards: 26,007
QB Rating: 100.5
Passing TD’s: 172
Rushing TD’S: 16
Total TD’s 188
INT’s: 65
Fumbles Lost: 5
Total Turnovers: 70
Turnover Differential: +118
Playoffs: 1-2
Quote: @JustinTime18™ said:
I was going to go looking for my post that had a last 120 games started by both Stafford and Cousins comparisons. And then I remembered presenting facts had little impact on fact resistant humanoids.
So, here's this instead.![[Image: xsno1h1csa9z.jpeg]](https://vikefans.com/vfforums/uploads/editor/0v/xsno1h1csa9z.jpeg)
Well, now I’m off to Boston Market… :p
Quote: @bigbone62 said:
From 2015 which was Cousins first year as the full time starter to 2020, Stafford's last year in Detroit here are their numbers. Pretty obvious why the comparison. Obvious if you are going off of real things and not clichés ole football coaches use that is. Numbers that are bolded are categories they bested the other QB in.
Stafford
Games: 88
W-L: 39-48-1
Comp %:65.6
Passing Yards: 23,395
Rushing Yards: 713
Total Yards: 24,108
QB Rating: 96.2
Passing TDs: 151
Rushing TDs: 3
Total TDs: 154
INT’s: 59
Fumbles Lost: 3
Total Turnovers:62
Turnover Differential: +92
Playoffs: 0-1
Cousins
Games: 95
W-L: 49-44-2
Comp %: 68
Passing Yards: 25,342
Rushing Yards: 665
Total Yards: 26,007
QB Rating: 100.5
Passing TD’s: 172
Rushing TD’S: 16
Total TD’s 188
INT’s: 65
Fumbles Lost: 5
Total Turnovers: 70
Turnover Differential: +118
Playoffs: 1-2
Looks like Cousins is better, and I’m not being a smart ass.
Watched a couple of Rams games this year and Stafford didn’t look great, but that throw near the end of the game in Tampa Bay was a thing of beauty.
Cousins can make that throw.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ Knucklehead said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said: Signing on with Cousins for five more campaigns is bold, rest assured. He’s a divisive player, so about 20% of the Vikings fanbase would sour on Adofo-Mensah and O’Connell – like instantly – if Cousins was inked for five more hurrahs. Yet, these are fresh eyes and minds on the scene. The Wilfs hired who they considered the best and brightest. If the twosome wants to extend Cousins for a long time – or trade him elsewhere – one should probably afford the benefit of the doubt.
Yeah, let's take a FAN poll before making a decision. LOL.
When it comes right down to it, and you weigh the ups and downs of all the options, a long-term extension with void years is probably the best. It allows us to add a few pieces to the defense and compete for a title in '22 and '23. Trade a player for a '23 pick, trade down in '22 for a '23 pick. Do whatever you have to do to maneuver into a high pick in '23. Draft the QB then. If you miss, you still have Cousins. If you hit, Cousins can be traded or voided.
But if the plan is to draft the QBOTF in the 23 draft, doesn't it make sense to trade KC for picks which will allow you the ammo to move into the top 10 to draft that QB?
Yes, if you don't want or plan to be competitive in '22. It sounds like the team, from ownership to the coaching staff, thinks they can be. I agree. But we'll find out soon enough what they REALLY think. Personally, I think our best chance to win a championship in the next five years is with Kirk Cousins at the helm.
But to hedge that bet, it would be a good idea to target '23 as the year to draft the QBOTF. But it doesn't necessarily require a Cousins trade to do that. They can trade Hunter or Harry or Kendricks or Bradbury or Thielen or Dalvin. Some are worth a lot; some are worth a little, but any of them would bring additional ammo. You can also trade #12 down for a '23 pick. You can also trade the '22 2nd rounder for a '23 1st. You can also trade future picks once we get to '23. All of these would be preferable to trading the starting QB, leaving Cook, JJ and company to slag through a couple seasons with a bridge QB and/or a rookie.
Because the truth remains that you don't know what you're going to get when you take a QB in the draft, even in the 1st round. Great if he's Herbert or Allen, but the odds say it's far more likely he's Tua, Love, Jones, Haskins, Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen, Wentz, Goff, Mariota, Winston, etc....
I'm convinced the Vikings would never trade their top 10 QB who's never hurt for what's behind door number 3. That's a good way to get yourself fired. But what they MIGHT do is keep Cousins, extend him, add void years, THEN draft what's behind the door. That way, if you hit, you trade Cousins for picks then. If you don't, you still have a top 10 QB who's never hurt.
I think the biggest difference between the opinions on the board about what to do divide among those who think this is a talented roster and let's find out what a new coach, new schemes and a couple of new starters can do...and those who think we're "far away" and should rebuild. I don't understand the 2nd group, but I know there are those who think that.
We don't know how "far away" we are, but when you take into account a new coaching staff brining in new systems on both sides of the ball that require specific personnel to operate and we have salary cap issues on top of everything else...chances are we are probably a year or two away from seriously competing. Is it the best idea to lock ourselves into a high dollar contract (again) with a 34 year old QB with a close to .500 career winning percentage who is not considered elite? I don't, and think it cripples our ability to build this roster how it needs to be even if that's taking a step back in the immediate while we do so. I don't want to keep riding the Kirk Cousins contract merry go round every year while we are scrambling trying to figure out our salary cap and how we are going to retain players.
I don't want Matt Stafford any more than I want Kirk. I didn't want Trent Dilfer after he won a ring with the Ravens. I want the franchise to find a real franchise qb, the kind of guy who makes you relevant every year, not the guy who if you put the perfect team around him and have a bunch of luck he might win it once in his career.
Quote: @comet52 said:
I don't want Matt Stafford any more than I want Kirk. I didn't want Trent Dilfer after he won a ring with the Ravens. I want the franchise to find a real franchise qb, the kind of guy who makes you relevant every year, not the guy who if you put the perfect team around him and have a bunch of luck he might win it once in his career.
Hey, you're not asking for much are ya? LOL
Here are all the QBs taken in the 1st round since 2010. There's 39 QBs here. I've bolded the ones I think pass your test. There are five of them. And I'm being nice with a couple, because only 1 of the 39 has won a Super Bowl. So 5 outta 39. That's 12%. We have a 12% chance of finding that guy in the draft. Even in the 1st round. And MOST of these guys are top 10 picks. We likely won't be picking that high.
You know who did it right? The Rams when they brought in Stafford. The Bucs when they brought in Brady. The Broncos when they brought in Manning. If the Vikings are smart they will hand the keys to KOC's offense to Cousins and take their shot at a QB in next year's draft.
#1 Sam Bradford QB Oklahoma St. Louis Rams
#25 Tim Tebow QB Florida Denver Broncos
#1 Cam Newton QB Auburn Carolina Panthers
#8 Jake Locker QB Washington Tennessee Titans
#10 Blaine Gabbert QB Missouri Jacksonville Jaguars
#12 Christian Ponder QB Florida State Minnesota Vikings
#1 Andrew Luck QB Stanford Indianapolis Colts
#2 Robert Griffin QB Baylor Washington Redskins
#8 Ryan Tannehill QB Texas A&M Miami Dolphins
#22 Brandon Weeden QB Oklahoma State Cleveland Browns
#16 EJ Manuel QB Florida State Buffalo Bills
#3 Blake Bortles QB Central Florida Jacksonville Jaguars
#22 Johnny Manziel QB Texas A&M Cleveland Browns
#32 Teddy Bridgewater QB Louisville Minnesota Vikings
#1 Jameis Winston QB Florida State Tampa Bay Buccaneers
#2 Marcus Mariota QB Oregon Tennessee Titans
#1 Jared Goff QB California Los Angeles Rams
#2 Carson Wentz QB North Dakota State Philadelphia Eagles
#26 Paxton Lynch QB Memphis Denver Broncos
#2 Mitchell Trubisky QB North Carolina Chicago Bears
#10 Patrick Mahomes QB Texas Tech Kansas City Chiefs
#12 Deshaun Watson QB Clemson Houston Texans
#1 Baker Mayfield QB Oklahoma Cleveland Browns
#3 Sam Darnold QB USC New York Jets
#7 Josh Allen QB Wyoming Buffalo Bills
#10 Josh Rosen QB UCLA Arizona Cardinals
#32 Lamar Jackson QB Louisville Baltimore Ravens
#1 Kyler Murray QB Oklahoma Arizona Cardinals
#6 Daniel Jones QB Duke New York Giants
#15 Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State Washington Redskins
#1 Joe Burrow QB LSU Benglas
#5 Tua Tagovailoa QB Alabama Miami Dolphins
#6 Justin Herbert QB Oregon LA Chargers
#26 Jordan Love QB Utah St. Green Bay Packers
#1 Trevor Lawrence QB Clemson Jax Jags
#2 Zach Wilson QB BYU NY Jets
#3 Trey Lance QB ND State 49ers
#11 Justin Fields QB OSU Bears
#15 Mac Jones QB Alabama Patriots
Quote: @Riphawkins said:
@ bigbone62 said:
From 2015 which was Cousins first year as the full time starter to 2020, Stafford's last year in Detroit here are their numbers. Pretty obvious why the comparison. Obvious if you are going off of real things and not clichés ole football coaches use that is. Numbers that are bolded are categories they bested the other QB in.
Stafford
Games: 88
W-L: 39-48-1
Comp %:65.6
Passing Yards: 23,395
Rushing Yards: 713
Total Yards: 24,108
QB Rating: 96.2
Passing TDs: 151
Rushing TDs: 3
Total TDs: 154
INT’s: 59
Fumbles Lost: 3
Total Turnovers:62
Turnover Differential: +92
Playoffs: 0-1
Cousins
Games: 95
W-L: 49-44-2
Comp %: 68
Passing Yards: 25,342
Rushing Yards: 665
Total Yards: 26,007
QB Rating: 100.5
Passing TD’s: 172
Rushing TD’S: 16
Total TD’s 188
INT’s: 65
Fumbles Lost: 5
Total Turnovers: 70
Turnover Differential: +118
Playoffs: 1-2
Looks like Cousins is better, and I’m not being a smart ass.
Watched a couple of Rams games this year and Stafford didn’t look great, but that throw near the end of the game in Tampa Bay was a thing of beauty.
Cousins can make that throw.
Kirk can make about any throw the play book requires, but if he's pressured, will he? And if the play breaks down, which so often happens in the NFL, can/will Kirk make that throw/play is where the top QBs separate themselves from Kirk IMO its not what he can do with time, its what he hasn't shown to do when things don't go as planned, thats why I dont like the idea of paying him like those top guys.
I suspect when they extend KC, his $ will be less than Brady, Mahomes, Allen or Rogers...
But he deserves to be in the next tier.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
I suspect when they extend KC, his $ will be less than Brady, Mahomes, Allen or Rogers...
But he deserves to be in the next tier.
Brady has been playing for under 29 million...I wish we could get Kirk to see the benefit of that for him.
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