Kyler Throws a Tantrum

[Guest]

@VikingOracle said:

@MaroonBells said:

@VikingOracle said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@Zanary said:

@VikingOracle said:
Keep this in mind -- Kyler Murray grew up a Vikings fan.  Would you make a Cousins - Murray trade?

Nope...but it has practically nothing to do with Cousins.

We hung with Arizona until the latest in our heartbreaking missed kick series killed our efforts, so I don't pine for their offense vs ours...but instead, what I've noticed is that Murray looked worse in important games, looked bad as things got closer to playoff time.  He's still a very good QB who likely has amazing potential...but I don't see mental toughness as much as I see a kid who's willing to take risks and his supporting cast has helped reward many of them.

That works in streaks, but...well, how many rings did Favre end up with in a two decade career?

if you are trying to convince me its a bad idea... you failed.   
I dont care if he is a mental pussy,  if he got us 1 ring in his career...well thats better than any other QB has done for the franchise in over 60 years.  we cant get our 2nd until we get our first.

And in Cousins I see too many 3rd down check downs short of the sticks.

Name a QB who doesn't do this. This is my biggest pet peeve about football fans. So many complain about an 8 yard pass on 3rd and 12, when the truth is that, on 3rd down, the defense is stacked at the sticks. Sometimes your best hope of converting is throwing short of the sticks and hoping your guy can break through. It's not that QBs and OCs don't know where the marker is. 

You are absolutely right about football fans, I plead guilty as charged.  That being said, Ham as a check down on 3rd and long is poor play design.  One of my biggest gripe about Cousins is he doesn't do a great job of adjusting his risk tolerance for particular game situations.

Is the throw to Ham play design or the 4th read when the first three aren't open?

I would agree that Cousins--actually, the offense in general--could stand to be a little less risk averse. Maybe a lot less. I know most defenses actually encourage the check down by stacking at the sticks and leaving the underneath open. And damned if Kirk doesn't fall for it nearly every time.

My only point is that I don't think he does this any more than other QBs. Because if I had a dollar for every time I hear this complaint from fans of other teams on Twitter, sports radio, etc., I could retire.

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@VikingOracle said:

@MaroonBells said:

@VikingOracle said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@Zanary said:

@VikingOracle said:
Keep this in mind -- Kyler Murray grew up a Vikings fan.  Would you make a Cousins - Murray trade?

Nope...but it has practically nothing to do with Cousins.

We hung with Arizona until the latest in our heartbreaking missed kick series killed our efforts, so I don't pine for their offense vs ours...but instead, what I've noticed is that Murray looked worse in important games, looked bad as things got closer to playoff time.  He's still a very good QB who likely has amazing potential...but I don't see mental toughness as much as I see a kid who's willing to take risks and his supporting cast has helped reward many of them.

That works in streaks, but...well, how many rings did Favre end up with in a two decade career?

if you are trying to convince me its a bad idea... you failed.   
I dont care if he is a mental pussy,  if he got us 1 ring in his career...well thats better than any other QB has done for the franchise in over 60 years.  we cant get our 2nd until we get our first.

And in Cousins I see too many 3rd down check downs short of the sticks.

Name a QB who doesn't do this. This is my biggest pet peeve about football fans. So many complain about an 8 yard pass on 3rd and 12, when the truth is that, on 3rd down, the defense is stacked at the sticks. Sometimes your best hope of converting is throwing short of the sticks and hoping your guy can break through. It's not that QBs and OCs don't know where the marker is. 

You are absolutely right about football fans, I plead guilty as charged.  That being said, Ham as a check down on 3rd and long is poor play design.  One of my biggest gripe about Cousins is he doesn't do a great job of adjusting his risk tolerance for particular game situations.

Is the throw to Ham play design or the 4th read when the first three aren't open?

I would agree that Cousins--actually, the offense in general--could stand to be a little less risk averse. Maybe a lot less. I know most defenses actually encourage the check down by stacking at the sticks and leaving the underneath open. And damned if Kirk doesn't fall for it nearly every time.

My only point is that I don't think he does this any more than other QBs. Because if I had a dollar for every time I hear this complaint from fans of other teams on Twitter, sports radio, etc., I could retire.

Well you know if they would run EVERY TIME on 1st and 2nd down, it wouldn't be 3rd and 12 so often.

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@VikingOracle said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@Zanary said:

@VikingOracle said:
Keep this in mind -- Kyler Murray grew up a Vikings fan.  Would you make a Cousins - Murray trade?

Nope...but it has practically nothing to do with Cousins.

We hung with Arizona until the latest in our heartbreaking missed kick series killed our efforts, so I don't pine for their offense vs ours...but instead, what I've noticed is that Murray looked worse in important games, looked bad as things got closer to playoff time.  He's still a very good QB who likely has amazing potential...but I don't see mental toughness as much as I see a kid who's willing to take risks and his supporting cast has helped reward many of them.

That works in streaks, but...well, how many rings did Favre end up with in a two decade career?

if you are trying to convince me its a bad idea... you failed.   
I dont care if he is a mental pussy,  if he got us 1 ring in his career...well thats better than any other QB has done for the franchise in over 60 years.  we cant get our 2nd until we get our first.

And in Cousins I see too many 3rd down check downs short of the sticks.

Name a QB who doesn't do this. This is my biggest pet peeve about football fans. So many complain about an 8 yard pass on 3rd and 12, when the truth is that, on 3rd down, the defense is stacked at the sticks. Sometimes your best hope of converting is throwing short of the sticks and hoping your guy can break through. It's not that QBs and OCs don't know where the marker is. 

[Guest]

@JimmyinSD said:

@Zanary said:

@VikingOracle said:
Keep this in mind -- Kyler Murray grew up a Vikings fan.  Would you make a Cousins - Murray trade?

Nope...but it has practically nothing to do with Cousins.

We hung with Arizona until the latest in our heartbreaking missed kick series killed our efforts, so I don't pine for their offense vs ours...but instead, what I've noticed is that Murray looked worse in important games, looked bad as things got closer to playoff time.  He's still a very good QB who likely has amazing potential...but I don't see mental toughness as much as I see a kid who's willing to take risks and his supporting cast has helped reward many of them.

That works in streaks, but...well, how many rings did Favre end up with in a two decade career?

if you are trying to convince me its a bad idea... you failed.   
I dont care if he is a mental pussy,  if he got us 1 ring in his career...well thats better than any other QB has done for the franchise in over 60 years.  we cant get our 2nd until we get our first.

That's just it, I'm not convinced he could.  One thing ol' Burt Favor had was mental toughness, and/or just an internal crust of Oxy that had him ready to follow his instincts, however good or bad they may have been.  He ended up with a ton of good and BAD records as a result, a collection of boneheaded season-killing lowlights, and had obviously peaked long before we had him.

Murray doesn't seem to have either the charisma nor the toughness, just athleticism and a goodly amount of skill that falls to panicky judgement and pouty behaviors.  I see him in a "whatever happened to..." series by 2030.

[Guest]

@StickyBun said:

@MaroonBells said:

@VikingOracle said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@Zanary said:

@VikingOracle said:
Keep this in mind -- Kyler Murray grew up a Vikings fan.  Would you make a Cousins - Murray trade?

Nope...but it has practically nothing to do with Cousins.

We hung with Arizona until the latest in our heartbreaking missed kick series killed our efforts, so I don't pine for their offense vs ours...but instead, what I've noticed is that Murray looked worse in important games, looked bad as things got closer to playoff time.  He's still a very good QB who likely has amazing potential...but I don't see mental toughness as much as I see a kid who's willing to take risks and his supporting cast has helped reward many of them.

That works in streaks, but...well, how many rings did Favre end up with in a two decade career?

if you are trying to convince me its a bad idea... you failed.   
I dont care if he is a mental pussy,  if he got us 1 ring in his career...well thats better than any other QB has done for the franchise in over 60 years.  we cant get our 2nd until we get our first.

And in Cousins I see too many 3rd down check downs short of the sticks.

Name a QB who doesn't do this. This is my biggest pet peeve about football fans. So many complain about an 8 yard pass on 3rd and 12, when the truth is that, on 3rd down, the defense is stacked at the sticks. Sometimes your best hope of converting is throwing short of the sticks and hoping your guy can break through. It's not that QBs and OCs don't know where the marker is. 

THANK YOU.

I kinda wonder, sometimes, if the posters snarling about our checkdown plays watch any other games.  EVERY QB has some, defenses know where the sticks are, and essentially every QB knows that some yards with a chance for YAC is better than nothing when he's about to get pummeled in the pocket.

Late in the season, when the Saints blanked the Bucs, ol' TB12 was harassed and forced into a ton of painfully familiar situations by the NO defense, leading to checkdowns and throw-aways all game long.  I remember watching, and actually wondering if the same people that never forgive Cousins or any Vikings QB for those plays were watching that game...because they're also the people who'll insist 'YOU CAN'T COMPARE...".

It takes a team, it takes coaching, it takes systems, and only one team gets it all the way right per year.  The babble about "just get this QB" or similar when there are a lot of glaring issues gets just...painful.

[Guest]

@Zanary said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@Zanary said:

@VikingOracle said:
Keep this in mind -- Kyler Murray grew up a Vikings fan.  Would you make a Cousins - Murray trade?

Nope...but it has practically nothing to do with Cousins.

We hung with Arizona until the latest in our heartbreaking missed kick series killed our efforts, so I don't pine for their offense vs ours...but instead, what I've noticed is that Murray looked worse in important games, looked bad as things got closer to playoff time.  He's still a very good QB who likely has amazing potential...but I don't see mental toughness as much as I see a kid who's willing to take risks and his supporting cast has helped reward many of them.

That works in streaks, but...well, how many rings did Favre end up with in a two decade career?

if you are trying to convince me its a bad idea... you failed.   
I dont care if he is a mental pussy,  if he got us 1 ring in his career...well thats better than any other QB has done for the franchise in over 60 years.  we cant get our 2nd until we get our first.

That's just it, I'm not convinced he could.  One thing ol' Burt Favor had was mental toughness, and/or just an internal crust of Oxy that had him ready to follow his instincts, however good or bad they may have been.  He ended up with a ton of good and BAD records as a result, a collection of boneheaded season-killing lowlights, and had obviously peaked long before we had him.

Murray doesn't seem to have either the charisma nor the toughness, just athleticism and a goodly amount of skill that falls to panicky judgement and pouty behaviors.  I see him in a "whatever happened to..." series by 2030.

you brought up Favres 1 ring as a reason why KM shouldnt be considered... I simply said at this point,  1 ring looks pretty fucking good to me.  you say it works in streaks, I think he just needs to get on 1 good one for us and it would be a good move.

I am not banging the table for the move,  anymore than I am calling for Cousins to be dealt ( unless he refuses to play for a much MUCH smaller share of the cap space each year of any new deal,  I am just saying that in looking over the fence,  there are less appealing options out there IMO.

[Guest]

@Zanary said:

@StickyBun said:

@MaroonBells said:

@VikingOracle said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@Zanary said:

@VikingOracle said:
Keep this in mind -- Kyler Murray grew up a Vikings fan.  Would you make a Cousins - Murray trade?

Nope...but it has practically nothing to do with Cousins.

We hung with Arizona until the latest in our heartbreaking missed kick series killed our efforts, so I don't pine for their offense vs ours...but instead, what I've noticed is that Murray looked worse in important games, looked bad as things got closer to playoff time.  He's still a very good QB who likely has amazing potential...but I don't see mental toughness as much as I see a kid who's willing to take risks and his supporting cast has helped reward many of them.

That works in streaks, but...well, how many rings did Favre end up with in a two decade career?

if you are trying to convince me its a bad idea... you failed.   
I dont care if he is a mental pussy,  if he got us 1 ring in his career...well thats better than any other QB has done for the franchise in over 60 years.  we cant get our 2nd until we get our first.

And in Cousins I see too many 3rd down check downs short of the sticks.

Name a QB who doesn't do this. This is my biggest pet peeve about football fans. So many complain about an 8 yard pass on 3rd and 12, when the truth is that, on 3rd down, the defense is stacked at the sticks. Sometimes your best hope of converting is throwing short of the sticks and hoping your guy can break through. It's not that QBs and OCs don't know where the marker is. 

THANK YOU.

I kinda wonder, sometimes, if the posters snarling about our checkdown plays watch any other games.  EVERY QB has some, defenses know where the sticks are, and essentially every QB knows that some yards with a chance for YAC is better than nothing when he's about to get pummeled in the pocket.

Late in the season, when the Saints blanked the Bucs, ol' TB12 was harassed and forced into a ton of painfully familiar situations by the NO defense, leading to checkdowns and throw-aways all game long.  I remember watching, and actually wondering if the same people that never forgive Cousins or any Vikings QB for those plays were watching that game...because they're also the people who'll insist 'YOU CAN'T COMPARE...".

It takes a team, it takes coaching, it takes systems, and only one team gets it all the way right per year.  The babble about "just get this QB" or similar when there are a lot of glaring issues gets just...painful.

the point of "just get this QB" or just get rid of KC,  isnt about his performance in relation to the team wins,  its his value,  he costs a shit ton of cap space which makes it much more difficult to address those other glaring areas of need.  8 to 10 million a year in cap concessions from him goes a long way to improving those other areas over what we are spending to man them currently.  KC plays a pretty good game,  not great,  but pretty damn good most the time,  but when you are in the tops of your position money wise, and are not consistently making that big of a difference in games,  something needs to change.  IMO the ball is in Kirks court. 

How KAM handles this next deal for cousins IMO will be a defining moment in his career with the Vikings.  Get Cousins to take a contract that is more in line with what Brady and others have done at the end of their careers to make a real run,  huge win right there and it should really make the next year or two much easier on him getting the team rebuilt in the way he envisions.

[Guest]

[Guest]

@JimmyinSD said:

@Zanary said:

@StickyBun said:

@MaroonBells said:

@VikingOracle said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@Zanary said:

@VikingOracle said:
Keep this in mind -- Kyler Murray grew up a Vikings fan.  Would you make a Cousins - Murray trade?

Nope...but it has practically nothing to do with Cousins.

We hung with Arizona until the latest in our heartbreaking missed kick series killed our efforts, so I don't pine for their offense vs ours...but instead, what I've noticed is that Murray looked worse in important games, looked bad as things got closer to playoff time.  He's still a very good QB who likely has amazing potential...but I don't see mental toughness as much as I see a kid who's willing to take risks and his supporting cast has helped reward many of them.

That works in streaks, but...well, how many rings did Favre end up with in a two decade career?

if you are trying to convince me its a bad idea... you failed.   
I dont care if he is a mental pussy,  if he got us 1 ring in his career...well thats better than any other QB has done for the franchise in over 60 years.  we cant get our 2nd until we get our first.

And in Cousins I see too many 3rd down check downs short of the sticks.

Name a QB who doesn't do this. This is my biggest pet peeve about football fans. So many complain about an 8 yard pass on 3rd and 12, when the truth is that, on 3rd down, the defense is stacked at the sticks. Sometimes your best hope of converting is throwing short of the sticks and hoping your guy can break through. It's not that QBs and OCs don't know where the marker is. 

THANK YOU.

I kinda wonder, sometimes, if the posters snarling about our checkdown plays watch any other games.  EVERY QB has some, defenses know where the sticks are, and essentially every QB knows that some yards with a chance for YAC is better than nothing when he's about to get pummeled in the pocket.

Late in the season, when the Saints blanked the Bucs, ol' TB12 was harassed and forced into a ton of painfully familiar situations by the NO defense, leading to checkdowns and throw-aways all game long.  I remember watching, and actually wondering if the same people that never forgive Cousins or any Vikings QB for those plays were watching that game...because they're also the people who'll insist 'YOU CAN'T COMPARE...".

It takes a team, it takes coaching, it takes systems, and only one team gets it all the way right per year.  The babble about "just get this QB" or similar when there are a lot of glaring issues gets just...painful.

the point of "just get this QB" or just get rid of KC,  isnt about his performance in relation to the team wins,  its his value,  he costs a shit ton of cap space which makes it much more difficult to address those other glaring areas of need.  8 to 10 million a year in cap concessions from him goes a long way to improving those other areas over what we are spending to man them currently.  KC plays a pretty good game,  not great,  but pretty damn good most the time,  but when you are in the tops of your position money wise, and are not consistently making that big of a difference in games,  something needs to change.  IMO the ball is in Kirks court. 

How KAM handles this next deal for cousins IMO will be a defining moment in his career with the Vikings.  Get Cousins to take a contract that is more in line with what Brady and others have done at the end of their careers to make a real run,  huge win right there and it should really make the next year or two much easier on him getting the team rebuilt in the way he envisions.

In terms of total contract value, Kirk ranks 14th
In terms of average per year, he ranks 8th
In terms of total guaranteed, he ranks 10th
Since he signed with the Vikings in 2018, Cousins ranks as follows…

Yards passing: 7th
Passing TDs: 5th
QB rating: 6th
Completion %: 4th
TD to INT ratio: 3rd
It’s time to end the narrative that his salary is so far out of line with his performance. 

EDIT: Made error on the numbers on the 1st run. Re-ran the numbers and it's now correct. 

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@Zanary said:

@StickyBun said:

@MaroonBells said:

@VikingOracle said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@Zanary said:

@VikingOracle said:
Keep this in mind -- Kyler Murray grew up a Vikings fan.  Would you make a Cousins - Murray trade?

Nope...but it has practically nothing to do with Cousins.

We hung with Arizona until the latest in our heartbreaking missed kick series killed our efforts, so I don't pine for their offense vs ours...but instead, what I've noticed is that Murray looked worse in important games, looked bad as things got closer to playoff time.  He's still a very good QB who likely has amazing potential...but I don't see mental toughness as much as I see a kid who's willing to take risks and his supporting cast has helped reward many of them.

That works in streaks, but...well, how many rings did Favre end up with in a two decade career?

if you are trying to convince me its a bad idea... you failed.   
I dont care if he is a mental pussy,  if he got us 1 ring in his career...well thats better than any other QB has done for the franchise in over 60 years.  we cant get our 2nd until we get our first.

And in Cousins I see too many 3rd down check downs short of the sticks.

Name a QB who doesn't do this. This is my biggest pet peeve about football fans. So many complain about an 8 yard pass on 3rd and 12, when the truth is that, on 3rd down, the defense is stacked at the sticks. Sometimes your best hope of converting is throwing short of the sticks and hoping your guy can break through. It's not that QBs and OCs don't know where the marker is. 

THANK YOU.

I kinda wonder, sometimes, if the posters snarling about our checkdown plays watch any other games.  EVERY QB has some, defenses know where the sticks are, and essentially every QB knows that some yards with a chance for YAC is better than nothing when he's about to get pummeled in the pocket.

Late in the season, when the Saints blanked the Bucs, ol' TB12 was harassed and forced into a ton of painfully familiar situations by the NO defense, leading to checkdowns and throw-aways all game long.  I remember watching, and actually wondering if the same people that never forgive Cousins or any Vikings QB for those plays were watching that game...because they're also the people who'll insist 'YOU CAN'T COMPARE...".

It takes a team, it takes coaching, it takes systems, and only one team gets it all the way right per year.  The babble about "just get this QB" or similar when there are a lot of glaring issues gets just...painful.

the point of "just get this QB" or just get rid of KC,  isnt about his performance in relation to the team wins,  its his value,  he costs a shit ton of cap space which makes it much more difficult to address those other glaring areas of need.  8 to 10 million a year in cap concessions from him goes a long way to improving those other areas over what we are spending to man them currently.  KC plays a pretty good game,  not great,  but pretty damn good most the time,  but when you are in the tops of your position money wise, and are not consistently making that big of a difference in games,  something needs to change.  IMO the ball is in Kirks court. 

How KAM handles this next deal for cousins IMO will be a defining moment in his career with the Vikings.  Get Cousins to take a contract that is more in line with what Brady and others have done at the end of their careers to make a real run,  huge win right there and it should really make the next year or two much easier on him getting the team rebuilt in the way he envisions.

In terms of total contract value, Kirk ranks 14th
In terms of average per year, he ranks 8th
In terms of total guaranteed, he ranks 10th
Since he signed with the Vikings in 2018, Cousins ranks as follows…

Yards passing: 7th
Passing TDs: 5th
QB rating: 6th
Completion %: 4th
TD to INT ratio: 3rd
It’s time to end the narrative that his salary is so far out of line with his performance. 

EDIT: Made error on the numbers on the 1st run. Re-ran the numbers and it's now correct. 

ive said before,  i dont give a shit if other teams want to over pay for bad or average play,  I just dont want the Vikings to continue to overpay for what they are getting out of Cousins.  its not about how hes ranked against guys that are equal to his performance or who get paid more but are worse than he is,  that is on those GMs for making bad deals for their teams.  Cousins is the highest paid guy on this team,  and IMO he is not delivering at a level that is commensurate with his pay.  we hear about if the team fixes this or that then they will be golden,  well those fixes cost money or draft picks,  neither of which are free/easy,  there will be other players who are expected to take pay cuts to stay with the team KC should be included on that list with Smith, Hunter, Kendricks, and likely more.

nobody wants to hear about rebuild, everybody likes to use softer terms to imply that this team is close,  but we have a new GM  with a new HC, that is going to implement a new offense as well as a new defense, with almost an entirely new coaching system, that doesnt sound like a simple massage to me,  or a quick fix.