Quote: @AGRforever said:
@ Mike Olson said:
It is not an anti-viral drug. It MAY have some anti-viral properties that need to undergo clinical studies. As of right now that isn’t ready to fly. And that is talking about the HUMAN dose and form of ivermectin. NOT the fleet farm version of ivermectin that people are using.
On the other hand we have vaccines. They have undergone all the clinical studies. Have gotten full use authorization now, are free, safe, and incredibly effective.
However if you feel that you want to roll the dice and ise something else good luck to you. I have many friends that are in healthcare that are just about sick and tired of people showing up, abusing them for not being able to save them after refusing to get a free vaccine that billions have taken with extremely low side effects. Especially compared to those that have opted for Ivermectin and HCQ.
I really do not want to see anyone die. Nor any one of their loved ones. It is likely that everyone in this country will get covid at least once. Those that have gotten vaxed are fairing much better. Very few deaths compared to those that haven’t been vaxed.
As it goes for this site I will be removing any and all posts that are pushing for people to take ivermectin or HCQ over a vaccination. I will not let this site be used to push quack and kook information that coukd result in people dieing.
Don’t like it? I don’t care.
If ivetmectin did anything for respritory viruses farmers would have figured it out 4 decades ago. Corona virus has been in cattle since time began so there would have been all kinds of oppertunities to figure it out.
Growing up on a dairy farm and living on a horse farm we’ve had unlimited times to see that it works fantastic for parasites and hasnt ever done a damn thing otherwise.
Even Mayo doctors have acknowledged that there is evidence that warrants further study of its use in attacking covid. Not saying its a cure, game changer, or anything else, just that it's use to date has show enough successes to see further studying. It's should also be noted that it is part of a cocktail of drugs and vitamins, and is being given early on before the virus has a chance to really take hold. My understanding is its not a stand alone treatment
I am in no way advocating its use by individuals,, and certainly not the animal product version, but if a mayo doc says its worth a closer look I will side with that vs what somebody hears on the evening news or from the internet.
Quote: @AGRforever said:
@ Mike Olson said:
It is not an anti-viral drug. It MAY have some anti-viral properties that need to undergo clinical studies. As of right now that isn’t ready to fly. And that is talking about the HUMAN dose and form of ivermectin. NOT the fleet farm version of ivermectin that people are using.
On the other hand we have vaccines. They have undergone all the clinical studies. Have gotten full use authorization now, are free, safe, and incredibly effective.
However if you feel that you want to roll the dice and ise something else good luck to you. I have many friends that are in healthcare that are just about sick and tired of people showing up, abusing them for not being able to save them after refusing to get a free vaccine that billions have taken with extremely low side effects. Especially compared to those that have opted for Ivermectin and HCQ.
I really do not want to see anyone die. Nor any one of their loved ones. It is likely that everyone in this country will get covid at least once. Those that have gotten vaxed are fairing much better. Very few deaths compared to those that haven’t been vaxed.
As it goes for this site I will be removing any and all posts that are pushing for people to take ivermectin or HCQ over a vaccination. I will not let this site be used to push quack and kook information that coukd result in people dieing.
Don’t like it? I don’t care.
If ivetmectin did anything for respritory viruses farmers would have figured it out 4 decades ago. Corona virus has been in cattle since time began so there would have been all kinds of oppertunities to figure it out.
Growing up on a dairy farm and living on a horse farm we’ve had unlimited times to see that it works fantastic for parasites and hasnt ever done a damn thing otherwise.
Did the cows and horses have covid back in the day? that is an interesting supposition. Of course if I understand science correctly, that was the horse dewormer, different dosing and lots of variables that don't translate over to human usage, so not sure if you are intentionally being dense, but it kinda seems that way.
Quote: @Mike Olson said:
Parasitic infection != Viral infection
So, therefore Ivermectin should be dismissed out-of-hand?
It's short-sighted to look at a primary action of a drug and ignore secondary actions and indications.
This topic has been a burr in my saddle many times during the covid discussions. Gotta opine.
Case 1:
Hydroxychloroquine (aka chloroquine aka Plaquenil)
-- Plaquenil is classified as an anti-parasitic.
However...it has WIDE-SPREAD, mainstream use as an anti-inflammatory for rheumatoid arthritis.
(Don't believe me Mike? talk to your medical friends)
A chronic INFLAMMATORY disease. An anti-parasitic, effectively/clinically used as an anti-inflammatory?
It's not considered "controversial" in clinical practice, cuz....IT WORKS! (as an anti-inflammatory)
Plaquenil only became "controversial" because some Dr's reported early positive results early in the CoVid
treatment cycle....and Trump amplified it's potential as a possible hope....and there we are in POLITICS.
(I have much clinical experience with HCL, will enjoy any discussions on this topic)
Case 2:
Ivermectin
-- I know much less about "Iver" ( unless he's the engine driver, lol)
It's also an anti-parasitic, with purported anti-inflammatory secondary actions...altho that medical lit is
less impressive than the medical lit/studies about Plaquenil.
The key here, is it has reported anti-inflammatory secondary actions. Being that the primary "killer" of Co-vid
infections is severe pulmonary inflammation....is it IMPOSSIBLE that this ANTI-PARASITIC drug is useless and
should therefore be dismissed as KOOKERY? NO! It (Iver) may play a role.
Now...should a drug with primary action as an anti-parasitic be the DOC (drug of choice) for Covid virus? No....medicine
should find a precise anti-viral specifically for Co-Vid, if possible. And Greed...it's not necessarily a monetary conspiracy to
push for that.
Are either of ^^ those drugs the "answer"? No. But neither should be held up for ridicule, simply because their
primary actions are anti-parasitic.
Are there other drugs that have primary classifications in one category, and used often in others? Maybe a drug not in the
headlines?
Why yes, savannahskol, howz about, say... Doxycycline?
Case 3: (just to show another example, not in the news)
Doxycycline
-- Primarily classified as a tetracycline anti-biotic (anti-bacterial). Significant secondary actions as....guess what...anti-
inflammatory. "Doxy" is used as an anti-inflammatory as much as an anti-bacterial. (We use 4th generation flouroquinolones
as DOC for anti-bacterials)
Point is.. an example of another drug (there are many others) used MORE for secondary clinical benefits...than the primary
indication.
As a clinician....you go to war with what you have, not with what you wished you had.
Quote: @ Mike Olson said:
As it goes for this site I will be removing any and all posts that are pushing for people to take ivermectin or HCQ over a vaccination. I will not let this site be used to push quack and kook information that coukd result in people dieing.
Don’t like it? I don’t care.
Did Greed (or Waterboy) "push" for any preferred therapies?
If they did, I didn't catch that...as I (vaccinated) would have called them out on it.
My nature is to push back on anyone that has a claim on "the truth". (Unless I agree  )
Did they cast some reasoned doubts about vaccines? Yes.
I don't agree with them...so far...but I'm keeping an open ear.... because the best way to attack covid is an evolving issue.
Shutting down debate is a bully position.
Quote: @savannahskol said:
@ Mike Olson said:
Parasitic infection != Viral infection
So, therefore Ivermectin should be dismissed out-of-hand?
It's short-sighted to look at a primary action of a drug and ignore secondary actions and indications.
This topic has been a burr in my saddle many times during the covid discussions. Gotta opine.
Case 1:
Hydroxychloroquine (aka chloroquine aka Plaquenil)
-- Plaquenil is classified as an anti-parasitic.
However...it has WIDE-SPREAD, mainstream use as an anti-inflammatory for rheumatoid arthritis.
(Don't believe me Mike? talk to your medical friends)
A chronic INFLAMMATORY disease. An anti-parasitic, effectively/clinically used as an anti-inflammatory?
It's not considered "controversial" in clinical practice, cuz....IT WORKS! (as an anti-inflammatory)
Plaquenil only became "controversial" because some Dr's reported early positive results early in the CoVid
treatment cycle....and Trump amplified it's potential as a possible hope....and there we are in POLITICS.
(I have much clinical experience with HCL, will enjoy any discussions on this topic)
Case 2:
Ivermectin
-- I know much less about "Iver" ( unless he's the engine driver, lol)
It's also an anti-parasitic, with purported anti-inflammatory secondary actions...altho that medical lit is
less impressive than the medical lit/studies about Plaquenil.
The key here, is it has reported anti-inflammatory secondary actions. Being that the primary "killer" of Co-vid
infections is severe pulmonary inflammation....is it IMPOSSIBLE that this ANTI-PARASITIC drug is useless and
should therefore be dismissed as KOOKERY? NO! It (Iver) may play a role.
Now...should a drug with primary action as an anti-parasitic be the DOC (drug of choice) for Covid virus? No....medicine
should find a precise anti-viral specifically for Co-Vid, if possible. And Greed...it's not necessarily a monetary conspiracy to
push for that.
Are either of ^^ those drugs the "answer"? No. But neither should be held up for ridicule, simply because their
primary actions are anti-parasitic.
Are there other drugs that have primary classifications in one category, and used often in others? Maybe a drug not in the
headlines?
Why yes, savannahskol, howz about, say... Doxycycline?
Case 3: (just to show another example, not in the news)
Doxycycline
-- Primarily classified as a tetracycline anti-biotic (anti-bacterial). Significant secondary actions as....guess what...anti-
inflammatory. "Doxy" is used as an anti-inflammatory as much as an anti-bacterial. (We use 4th generation flouroquinolones
as DOC for anti-bacterials)
Point is.. an example of another drug (there are many others) used MORE for secondary clinical benefits...than the primary
indication.
As a clinician....you go to war with what you have, not with what you wished you had.
Quote: @ Mike Olson said:
As it goes for this site I will be removing any and all posts that are pushing for people to take ivermectin or HCQ over a vaccination. I will not let this site be used to push quack and kook information that coukd result in people dieing.
Don’t like it? I don’t care.
Did Greed (or Waterboy) "push" for any preferred therapies?
If they did, I didn't catch that...as I (vaccinated) would have called them out on it.
My nature is to push back on anyone that has a claim on "the truth". (Unless I agree )
Did they cast some reasoned doubts about vaccines? Yes.
I don't agree with them...so far...but I'm keeping an open ear.... because the best way to attack covid is an evolving issue.
Shutting down debate is a bully position.
Thank you for your insight and commentary. I am not a doctor, never claimed to be. I am just a guy with my eyes wide open during these crazy times. And as you say, you go to war with what you have, and you sure as hell don't throw away bullets because you are politically opposed to the people making them.
As to the monetary conspiracy comment, I have no problem finding a better treatment. But my issue is the political banishment of treatments that help, or even consideration and study of those that MIGHT help. That is kookery and anti-science. If this pandemic is to be handled, firing healthcare workers, politicizing treatments and restricting access to medicine and hospitalization is the exact opposite of science.
It is undergoing studies to determine efficacy in humans. that is the human form of ivermectin. it is currently going through the studies for that. You have people suing hospitals demanding that they be treated with and then dying. You have people purchasing forms that are meant for animals and ingesting it because of garbage dangerous information being spread. is being politicized by people claiming that it’s being politicized when that just isn’t the truth. If you’re going to use a drug for something that it wasn’t intended for in human usage it needs to go through studies to determine its safety and efficacy.
Quote: @Mike Olson said:
It is undergoing studies to determine efficacy in humans. that is the human form of ivermectin. it is currently going through the studies for that. You have people suing hospitals demanding that they be treated with and then dying. You have people purchasing forms that are meant for animals and ingesting it because of garbage dangerous information being spread. is being politicized by people claiming that it’s being politicized when that just isn’t the truth. If you’re going to use a drug for something that it wasn’t intended for in human usage it needs to go through studies to determine its safety and efficacy.
No shit. Same with everything medical. Vaccines, new drugs. But well known drugs that have been shown to be safe get blocked for political reasons. That is the stupidity of the politicization. You have people desperate because of the constant fear mongering and trying to treat themselves because bureaucrats block doctors from prescribing things that have been shown to work.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ Mike Olson said:
It is not an anti-viral drug. It MAY have some anti-viral properties that need to undergo clinical studies. As of right now that isn’t ready to fly. And that is talking about the HUMAN dose and form of ivermectin. NOT the fleet farm version of ivermectin that people are using.
On the other hand we have vaccines. They have undergone all the clinical studies. Have gotten full use authorization now, are free, safe, and incredibly effective.
However if you feel that you want to roll the dice and ise something else good luck to you. I have many friends that are in healthcare that are just about sick and tired of people showing up, abusing them for not being able to save them after refusing to get a free vaccine that billions have taken with extremely low side effects. Especially compared to those that have opted for Ivermectin and HCQ.
I really do not want to see anyone die. Nor any one of their loved ones. It is likely that everyone in this country will get covid at least once. Those that have gotten vaxed are fairing much better. Very few deaths compared to those that haven’t been vaxed.
As it goes for this site I will be removing any and all posts that are pushing for people to take ivermectin or HCQ over a vaccination. I will not let this site be used to push quack and kook information that coukd result in people dieing.
Don’t like it? I don’t care.
If ivetmectin did anything for respritory viruses farmers would have figured it out 4 decades ago. Corona virus has been in cattle since time began so there would have been all kinds of oppertunities to figure it out.
Growing up on a dairy farm and living on a horse farm we’ve had unlimited times to see that it works fantastic for parasites and hasnt ever done a damn thing otherwise.
Even Mayo doctors have acknowledged that there is evidence that warrants further study of its use in attacking covid. Not saying its a cure, game changer, or anything else, just that it's use to date has show enough successes to see further studying. It's should also be noted that it is part of a cocktail of drugs and vitamins, and is being given early on before the virus has a chance to really take hold. My understanding is its not a stand alone treatment
I am in no way advocating its use by individuals,, and certainly not the animal product version, but if a mayo doc says its worth a closer look I will side with that vs what somebody hears on the evening news or from the internet.
Im all for studying a cheap drug for an expensive problem. Its ludacrist to be going to tractor supply and self medicating because facebook said so.
Quote: @AGRforever said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ Mike Olson said:
It is not an anti-viral drug. It MAY have some anti-viral properties that need to undergo clinical studies. As of right now that isn’t ready to fly. And that is talking about the HUMAN dose and form of ivermectin. NOT the fleet farm version of ivermectin that people are using.
On the other hand we have vaccines. They have undergone all the clinical studies. Have gotten full use authorization now, are free, safe, and incredibly effective.
However if you feel that you want to roll the dice and ise something else good luck to you. I have many friends that are in healthcare that are just about sick and tired of people showing up, abusing them for not being able to save them after refusing to get a free vaccine that billions have taken with extremely low side effects. Especially compared to those that have opted for Ivermectin and HCQ.
I really do not want to see anyone die. Nor any one of their loved ones. It is likely that everyone in this country will get covid at least once. Those that have gotten vaxed are fairing much better. Very few deaths compared to those that haven’t been vaxed.
As it goes for this site I will be removing any and all posts that are pushing for people to take ivermectin or HCQ over a vaccination. I will not let this site be used to push quack and kook information that coukd result in people dieing.
Don’t like it? I don’t care.
If ivetmectin did anything for respritory viruses farmers would have figured it out 4 decades ago. Corona virus has been in cattle since time began so there would have been all kinds of oppertunities to figure it out.
Growing up on a dairy farm and living on a horse farm we’ve had unlimited times to see that it works fantastic for parasites and hasnt ever done a damn thing otherwise.
Even Mayo doctors have acknowledged that there is evidence that warrants further study of its use in attacking covid. Not saying its a cure, game changer, or anything else, just that it's use to date has show enough successes to see further studying. It's should also be noted that it is part of a cocktail of drugs and vitamins, and is being given early on before the virus has a chance to really take hold. My understanding is its not a stand alone treatment
I am in no way advocating its use by individuals,, and certainly not the animal product version, but if a mayo doc says its worth a closer look I will side with that vs what somebody hears on the evening news or from the internet.
Im all for studying a cheap drug for an expensive problem. Its ludacrist to be going to tractor supply and self medicating because facebook said so.
Also ludicrous to keep spouting red herrings. That was never the discussion no matter how much you keep going back to that.
Quote: @AGRforever said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ Mike Olson said:
It is not an anti-viral drug. It MAY have some anti-viral properties that need to undergo clinical studies. As of right now that isn’t ready to fly. And that is talking about the HUMAN dose and form of ivermectin. NOT the fleet farm version of ivermectin that people are using.
On the other hand we have vaccines. They have undergone all the clinical studies. Have gotten full use authorization now, are free, safe, and incredibly effective.
However if you feel that you want to roll the dice and ise something else good luck to you. I have many friends that are in healthcare that are just about sick and tired of people showing up, abusing them for not being able to save them after refusing to get a free vaccine that billions have taken with extremely low side effects. Especially compared to those that have opted for Ivermectin and HCQ.
I really do not want to see anyone die. Nor any one of their loved ones. It is likely that everyone in this country will get covid at least once. Those that have gotten vaxed are fairing much better. Very few deaths compared to those that haven’t been vaxed.
As it goes for this site I will be removing any and all posts that are pushing for people to take ivermectin or HCQ over a vaccination. I will not let this site be used to push quack and kook information that coukd result in people dieing.
Don’t like it? I don’t care.
If ivetmectin did anything for respritory viruses farmers would have figured it out 4 decades ago. Corona virus has been in cattle since time began so there would have been all kinds of oppertunities to figure it out.
Growing up on a dairy farm and living on a horse farm we’ve had unlimited times to see that it works fantastic for parasites and hasnt ever done a damn thing otherwise.
Even Mayo doctors have acknowledged that there is evidence that warrants further study of its use in attacking covid. Not saying its a cure, game changer, or anything else, just that it's use to date has show enough successes to see further studying. It's should also be noted that it is part of a cocktail of drugs and vitamins, and is being given early on before the virus has a chance to really take hold. My understanding is its not a stand alone treatment
I am in no way advocating its use by individuals,, and certainly not the animal product version, but if a mayo doc says its worth a closer look I will side with that vs what somebody hears on the evening news or from the internet.
Im all for studying a cheap drug for an expensive problem. Its ludacrist to be going to tractor supply and self medicating because facebook said so.
You talk about that like it was common place or ever part of a discussion. Pretty disingenuous to keep bringing that nugget back up, its kind of lost its cleverness considering the overwhelming evidence showing that the drug is not just horse medicine. The health benefits of oats in your diet is well established, do you see many people going to the elevator for oats to eat or do they just buy oatmeal?
Honestly I think the people taking the animal drug is likely more of a fake story than true, I dont doubt its happened, but not likely near enough for the story its created.
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