Quote: @Zanary said:
@ Wetlander said:
The tweet is one example of an extreme... but is the extreme take an accurate representation of those that think the Vikings can do better at QB?
It's like the pro-Cousins fans that keep spouting the tweet that says Cousins is 5-1 with a ridiculously high QB rating when pressured under 20% or whatever it is in 2020. How much you wanna bet that stat was from both Lions games, Jacksonville, Cowboys, Texans, and the Panthers? All teams that drafted in the top 10 and were awful pressuring the QB. Sure it'd be great if we could play trash teams for all 17 weeks of the regular season, but sooner or later you're going to play a good team, especially in the playoffs.
The fact is Cousins is not an elite QB. He's like Matthew Stafford, Matt Ryan, Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Jimmy G, Ryan Tannehill, Derek Carr, etc. who can all play well and lead the team to the playoffs when they have a great team around them, but they aren't elevating a good (flawed) roster to the playoffs.
This discussion is getting stale.
My response to that is, and will remain, that the "elite" tend to have fewer flaws in their protection and/or their teams to overcome.
How many rings has golden boy Russell Wilson had since the "Legion of Boom" splintered?
How much time per snap do QBs like Erin and Brady get, vs what we've settled for during the last decade? Does anyone think they'd win 13 games behind our o-line, with the defense handing over 30 PPG?
It's a fuggin' team sport. Eli Manning has 2 rings, and he's nowhere near elite. Trent Dilfer? Game manager, defined. Nick Foles is basically average in every metric...but was on a team good enough to win the whole thing.
Cousins isn't perfect, but the hatred toward him is pure stupidity. He's waaaaay down the list of the team's problems, and would be far further if he even had middling protection...as opposed to bottom-quarter of the league.
The fixation on QB stats without context is purely for fantasy football dorks, and the hatred toward our most consistent QB in many years is babble by the clueless.
Go look at the list of all the SB winners and just compare
them by ones that were won by a perennial top 5ish, HOF caliber QBs and which
ones were won by anyone else? I look at
the list from 2000 to 2020 and see 15 SBs won by teams having perennial top 5ish
HOF caliber QBs and 6 won by any of the other 27 teams. If you have a perennial top 5 QB, you are
asking the question, how many SBs is this QB going to win? If you have any other QB, you are asking, can
we catch lightning in a bottle?
With Cousins, we’re going to have to hope that we’re the one
team out of the 27 teams without an elite QB vying for that one SB win every 4
years that falls out of elite QB hands.
Could it happen? Sure, but the
shortest path to a SB win is to get an elite QB, and to get an elite QB, you
need to just keep drafting guys, and making sure your system allows them to flourish.
Quote: @medaille said:
@ Zanary said:
@ Wetlander said:
The tweet is one example of an extreme... but is the extreme take an accurate representation of those that think the Vikings can do better at QB?
It's like the pro-Cousins fans that keep spouting the tweet that says Cousins is 5-1 with a ridiculously high QB rating when pressured under 20% or whatever it is in 2020. How much you wanna bet that stat was from both Lions games, Jacksonville, Cowboys, Texans, and the Panthers? All teams that drafted in the top 10 and were awful pressuring the QB. Sure it'd be great if we could play trash teams for all 17 weeks of the regular season, but sooner or later you're going to play a good team, especially in the playoffs.
The fact is Cousins is not an elite QB. He's like Matthew Stafford, Matt Ryan, Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Jimmy G, Ryan Tannehill, Derek Carr, etc. who can all play well and lead the team to the playoffs when they have a great team around them, but they aren't elevating a good (flawed) roster to the playoffs.
This discussion is getting stale.
My response to that is, and will remain, that the "elite" tend to have fewer flaws in their protection and/or their teams to overcome.
How many rings has golden boy Russell Wilson had since the "Legion of Boom" splintered?
How much time per snap do QBs like Erin and Brady get, vs what we've settled for during the last decade? Does anyone think they'd win 13 games behind our o-line, with the defense handing over 30 PPG?
It's a fuggin' team sport. Eli Manning has 2 rings, and he's nowhere near elite. Trent Dilfer? Game manager, defined. Nick Foles is basically average in every metric...but was on a team good enough to win the whole thing.
Cousins isn't perfect, but the hatred toward him is pure stupidity. He's waaaaay down the list of the team's problems, and would be far further if he even had middling protection...as opposed to bottom-quarter of the league.
The fixation on QB stats without context is purely for fantasy football dorks, and the hatred toward our most consistent QB in many years is babble by the clueless.
Go look at the list of all the SB winners and just compare
them by ones that were won by a perennial top 5ish, HOF caliber QBs and which
ones were won by anyone else? I look at
the list from 2000 to 2020 and see 15 SBs won by teams having perennial top 5ish
HOF caliber QBs and 6 won by any of the other 27 teams. If you have a perennial top 5 QB, you are
asking the question, how many SBs is this QB going to win? If you have any other QB, you are asking, can
we catch lightning in a bottle?
With Cousins, we’re going to have to hope that we’re the one
team out of the 27 teams without an elite QB vying for that one SB win every 4
years that falls out of elite QB hands.
Could it happen? Sure, but the
shortest path to a SB win is to get an elite QB, and to get an elite QB, you
need to just keep drafting guys, and making sure your system allows them to flourish.
How many times is perennial, just more than once, consecutive?. Being a bit lazy, just interested in your analysis. Have you looked at other team metrics, OL performance, just the old does correlation imply causation thing. My position is that there is more to QB performance than ability, for example look at TB qbs, Williams, Young, Dilfer.
Quote: @medaille said:
@ Zanary said:
@ Wetlander said:
The tweet is one example of an extreme... but is the extreme take an accurate representation of those that think the Vikings can do better at QB?
It's like the pro-Cousins fans that keep spouting the tweet that says Cousins is 5-1 with a ridiculously high QB rating when pressured under 20% or whatever it is in 2020. How much you wanna bet that stat was from both Lions games, Jacksonville, Cowboys, Texans, and the Panthers? All teams that drafted in the top 10 and were awful pressuring the QB. Sure it'd be great if we could play trash teams for all 17 weeks of the regular season, but sooner or later you're going to play a good team, especially in the playoffs.
The fact is Cousins is not an elite QB. He's like Matthew Stafford, Matt Ryan, Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Jimmy G, Ryan Tannehill, Derek Carr, etc. who can all play well and lead the team to the playoffs when they have a great team around them, but they aren't elevating a good (flawed) roster to the playoffs.
This discussion is getting stale.
My response to that is, and will remain, that the "elite" tend to have fewer flaws in their protection and/or their teams to overcome.
How many rings has golden boy Russell Wilson had since the "Legion of Boom" splintered?
How much time per snap do QBs like Erin and Brady get, vs what we've settled for during the last decade? Does anyone think they'd win 13 games behind our o-line, with the defense handing over 30 PPG?
It's a fuggin' team sport. Eli Manning has 2 rings, and he's nowhere near elite. Trent Dilfer? Game manager, defined. Nick Foles is basically average in every metric...but was on a team good enough to win the whole thing.
Cousins isn't perfect, but the hatred toward him is pure stupidity. He's waaaaay down the list of the team's problems, and would be far further if he even had middling protection...as opposed to bottom-quarter of the league.
The fixation on QB stats without context is purely for fantasy football dorks, and the hatred toward our most consistent QB in many years is babble by the clueless.
Go look at the list of all the SB winners and just compare
them by ones that were won by a perennial top 5ish, HOF caliber QBs and which
ones were won by anyone else? I look at
the list from 2000 to 2020 and see 15 SBs won by teams having perennial top 5ish
HOF caliber QBs and 6 won by any of the other 27 teams. If you have a perennial top 5 QB, you are
asking the question, how many SBs is this QB going to win? If you have any other QB, you are asking, can
we catch lightning in a bottle?
With Cousins, we’re going to have to hope that we’re the one
team out of the 27 teams without an elite QB vying for that one SB win every 4
years that falls out of elite QB hands.
Could it happen? Sure, but the
shortest path to a SB win is to get an elite QB, and to get an elite QB, you
need to just keep drafting guys, and making sure your system allows them to flourish.
Sure, but from 2000 to 2020 Tom Brady won 7 of them. The list of QB's he beat are more like Kirk. Tom won't be around forever so the other 31 teams will have a shot
Quote: @medaille said:
@ Zanary said:
@ Wetlander said:
The tweet is one example of an extreme... but is the extreme take an accurate representation of those that think the Vikings can do better at QB?
It's like the pro-Cousins fans that keep spouting the tweet that says Cousins is 5-1 with a ridiculously high QB rating when pressured under 20% or whatever it is in 2020. How much you wanna bet that stat was from both Lions games, Jacksonville, Cowboys, Texans, and the Panthers? All teams that drafted in the top 10 and were awful pressuring the QB. Sure it'd be great if we could play trash teams for all 17 weeks of the regular season, but sooner or later you're going to play a good team, especially in the playoffs.
The fact is Cousins is not an elite QB. He's like Matthew Stafford, Matt Ryan, Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Jimmy G, Ryan Tannehill, Derek Carr, etc. who can all play well and lead the team to the playoffs when they have a great team around them, but they aren't elevating a good (flawed) roster to the playoffs.
This discussion is getting stale.
My response to that is, and will remain, that the "elite" tend to have fewer flaws in their protection and/or their teams to overcome.
How many rings has golden boy Russell Wilson had since the "Legion of Boom" splintered?
How much time per snap do QBs like Erin and Brady get, vs what we've settled for during the last decade? Does anyone think they'd win 13 games behind our o-line, with the defense handing over 30 PPG?
It's a fuggin' team sport. Eli Manning has 2 rings, and he's nowhere near elite. Trent Dilfer? Game manager, defined. Nick Foles is basically average in every metric...but was on a team good enough to win the whole thing.
Cousins isn't perfect, but the hatred toward him is pure stupidity. He's waaaaay down the list of the team's problems, and would be far further if he even had middling protection...as opposed to bottom-quarter of the league.
The fixation on QB stats without context is purely for fantasy football dorks, and the hatred toward our most consistent QB in many years is babble by the clueless.
Go look at the list of all the SB winners and just compare
them by ones that were won by a perennial top 5ish, HOF caliber QBs and which
ones were won by anyone else? I look at
the list from 2000 to 2020 and see 15 SBs won by teams having perennial top 5ish
HOF caliber QBs and 6 won by any of the other 27 teams. If you have a perennial top 5 QB, you are
asking the question, how many SBs is this QB going to win? If you have any other QB, you are asking, can
we catch lightning in a bottle?
With Cousins, we’re going to have to hope that we’re the one
team out of the 27 teams without an elite QB vying for that one SB win every 4
years that falls out of elite QB hands.
Could it happen? Sure, but the
shortest path to a SB win is to get an elite QB, and to get an elite QB, you
need to just keep drafting guys, and making sure your system allows them to flourish.
Another stat that tells one thing on the surface, but another thing below.
Go look at that list again. I take away that if your QB is named Brady, you have a great chance of winning the SB, but if not, well good luck.
For the people that are giving me resistance, what are you arguing for?
I'm arguing for "Hey we should be drafting QBs that might be better than Kirk" because the upside of hitting is massive
Are you arguing "Kirks not garbage, we have a chance with him" or are you arguing "I have so much faith in Kirk that we should solely focus on building around him rather than drafting competition"
Quote: @medaille said:
For the people that are giving me resistance, what are you arguing for?
I'm arguing for "Hey we should be drafting QBs that might be better than Kirk" because the upside of hitting is massive
Are you arguing "Kirks not garbage, we have a chance with him" or are you arguing "I have so much faith in Kirk that we should solely focus on building around him rather than drafting competition"
I was just interested in your analysis, and too many things going on to look up additional information. I agree how key a QB is to winning it all. Just got a hunch that it’s having the right guy at the right timel, nature vs nurture kind of argument. I realy believed it was the Belichick method, but i stand corrected.
Quote: @medaille said:
For the people that are giving me resistance, what are you arguing for?
I'm arguing for "Hey we should be drafting QBs that might be better than Kirk" because the upside of hitting is massive
Are you arguing "Kirks not garbage, we have a chance with him" or are you arguing "I have so much faith in Kirk that we should solely focus on building around him rather than drafting competition"
You're not factoring the downside of missing on that highly drafted QB. Especially if you use Kirk to get him, as if in a trade up of some sort, which many many people advocated earlier this year. It sets you back years.
No team would ever do that, though. The potential for egg on your face is too great when you offload your top third QB for a roll of the dice and end up with Trubisky, Winston, Wentz, etc.
And now look what you've done. You've taken a stacked roster capable of winning a Super Bowl with a pretty good QB and turned it into a rebuild, which is another thing many many people advocated for earlier this year. Sounds a bit crazy right now.
Vikings best bet for a Super Bowl the next few seasons is with Kirk Cousins. So they did exactly what they should've done: they kept him, rebuilt the defense, fortified his protection, and drafted a no-competition, but high-upside QB in the 3rd round to develop behind him.
Mond may not be the next great young QB, but with a line of all 1st and 2nd round draft picks (and Davis), the weapons he'll have and his ability to run, he may not have to be.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ medaille said:
For the people that are giving me resistance, what are you arguing for?
I'm arguing for "Hey we should be drafting QBs that might be better than Kirk" because the upside of hitting is massive
Are you arguing "Kirks not garbage, we have a chance with him" or are you arguing "I have so much faith in Kirk that we should solely focus on building around him rather than drafting competition"
You're not factoring the downside of missing on that highly drafted QB. Especially if you use Kirk to get him, as if in a trade up of some sort, which many many people advocated earlier this year. It sets you back years.
No team would ever do that, though. The potential for egg on your face is too great when you offload your top third QB for a roll of the dice and end up with Trubisky, Winston, Wentz, etc.
And now look what you've done. You've taken a stacked roster capable of winning a Super Bowl with a pretty good QB and turned it into a rebuild, which is another thing many many people advocated for earlier this year. Sounds a bit crazy right now.
Vikings best bet for a Super Bowl the next few seasons is with Kirk Cousins. So they did exactly what they should've done: they kept him, rebuilt the defense, fortified his protection, and drafted a no-competition, but high-upside QB in the 3rd round to develop behind him.
Mond may not be the next great young QB, but with a line of all 1st and 2nd round draft picks (and Davis), the weapons he'll have and his ability to run, he may not have to be.
Yes, this is exactly where I was at. I wasn't for not drafting a QB in this draft but I wouldnt have supported drafting any QB in the first round as QB is nowhere near our biggest need and we are certainly capable of doing some damage. The argument is purely why continue to ignore the obvious needs just to take a risk on a QB because this organization hasn't had a true franchise QB since Fran? I get it, we all want the Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, etc. but it's extremely hard to get so you play your cards that are dealt and try to improve in other areas (Look at SF two years ago as they very much could have won the damn thing).
My issue is largely due to what I call the "Madden fans", who are all about how things could be by plugging in this player or that player, instead of investing that same energy in, y'know, the people actually sweating through the games in their teams' uniforms. They seem to man-sturbate about being able to have a video game reality, where they could just reset their rosters 12 times per season.
I find these people to be absolute dinks, just babbling "...but, if we'd have had Mahomes and maybe Julio..." with every insight. Useless.
Where Cousins is concerned, I've found the hatred to be stupefying since day 1. Yes, he's gotten handsomely paid, but also brutally battered behind what's been a bottom-quarter-of-the-league o-line since joining the Vikings. He's had bad plays and bad games, but he's also won, straight up, when competing against the elite QB so many are fawning and fainting over...which doesn't get mentioned.
The people babbling "he's all stats" are just cowards who actually are saying "I can't argue against tangibles, so I want them marginalized".
The people crying into their White Claws for every hot, mobile, young QB kinda miss that Wilson is almost a decade since his last SB win, and only one year less removed from his last SB appearance. Erin is a decade out. The young studmuffin QBs on the Ravens, Texans, and Cardinals were only at this year's SB if they had tickets. As for Mahomes...Cousins did at least as well against the Bucs' defense.
Cousins also has gotten those gaudy, much-derided stats in a run-first offense with the terrible pass protection. He's had to do more with less, and the knocks against him being bad when plays break down is kinda hilarious when so VERY MANY plays were broken down by our terrible middle o-line play. He's inarguably had to do more with less real opportunities.
He's been our most productive, most consistent QB in many years...possibly ever. His W/L stats, which are kinda laughable considering that it's a team sport, are superior to Tarkenton's. He's actually improved steadily with the Vikings despite the rotating OCs and having to be a punching bag for a slew of 300+ pound DLs.
I'm not saying he's perfect, and I'm not saying to hamstring the rest of the QB room...but, one thing those "elites" all have is an offense and staff built around them. Cousins has done all he's done in an offense built around Cook as much as him.
I'd rather personally over-invest in players we have than spend my energies looking past them. My cheers, snarls, profanity, and fist-pumping are for the players actually in our uniforms, on the roster and on the field.
Fourth quarter comebacks and game winning
drives should be considered. I left Drew Brees, Philip
Rivers, and Alex Smith on since they played last year.
Active QBs - Fourth Quarter Comebacks (Career)
Tom Brady: 39
Drew Brees: 36
Ben Roethlisberger: 35
Matthew Stafford: 31
Matt Ryan: 30
Philip Rivers: 29
Russel Wilson: 24
Andy Dalton: 23
Ryan Tannelhill: 22
Derek Carr: 21
Alex Smith: 19
Joe Flacco: 18
Aaron Rodgers: 17
Cam Newton: 16
Ryan Fitzpatrick: 13
Kirk Cousins: 11
Matt Schaub: 11
Nick Foles: 10
Marcus Mariota: 9
Carson Wentz: 9
Josh Allen: 8
Deshawn Watson: 8
Blaine Gabbert: 7
Jimmy Garappollo: 7
Jamison Winston: 7
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/l...career.htm
Active QBs - Game Winning Drives (Career)
Drew Brees 53
Tom Brady 48
Ben Roethlisberger 46
Matt Ryan 38
Matthew Stafford 38
Philip Rivers 35
Russell Wilson 31
Andy Dalton 27
Aaron Rodgers 25
Derek Carr 24
Joe Flacco 24
Alex Smith 23
Ryan Tannehill 22
Cam Newton 20
Ryan Fitzpatrick 18
Kirk Cousins 16
Dak Prescott 15
Matt Schaub 14
Nick Foles 12
Josh Allen 11
Marcus Mariota 11
Jameis Winston 11
Case Keenum 10
Deshaun Watson 10
Carson Wentz 10
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/l...active.htm
A comparison between Kirk Cousins and a 40-41 year old Brett Favre.
Minnesota Vikings: Kirk Cousins vs Brett Favre
Cousins: 47 starts - 3 Fourth Quarter Comebacks, 4
Game-Winning Drives
Favre: 29 starts - 3 Fourth Quarter Comebacks, 4
Game-Winning Drives
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