Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
i would be surprised if the defense doesnt have a circus of ER professionals that will talk about what person dying from a meth/fentanyl overdose experience before collapsing. the most common response from those OD victims, before they go unconscious is "I cant breath", this is coming from an ER RN in hennepin county who deals with ODs quite regularly on her shifts. I also expect they will have experts testifying to the tox drug levels in his system and if they feel that those factor into the death. I doubt the defense is going to go for complete innocence, the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming, but there are likely a litany of other factors that will play in being used to bring the jurors back from the ledge that the prosecution has them on.
Who knows what the jurors are thinking?
Nothing surprises me anymore. Hell, I always come back to "if the glove don't fit..."
Anyways, this brings us right back to the tremendous energy and time expended b4 this trial began - for MS 3.
who is MS 3?
Quote: @Vikergirl said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
Legal experts have been skeptical of the prosecutions charges and strategy since about day 1, this will be interesting to say the least.
What are YOU hoping for, Jimmy?
I am hoping for justice for all involved, i am hoping that the outcome doesn't create more innocent victims through continued vandalism and violence of those unaccepting of the verdict.
I dont believe the cops actions were legal or justified. I dont believe the victim was either innocent nor a good person. I do believe that some good may come from his death, but we need to get past the anger and twister truths before we can have that conversation that may lead to that good.
I know that you are baiting me so go ahead and so what it is you want to say.
Not baiting you. This was a good answer. Personally, i think Floyd's history of beating puppies or whatever it was he did is irrelevant. Zanary complains that he was unworthy of "three televised funerals." That's not about George Floyd. That's about what he represents.
I don't understand the need some people have to denigrate him, as if it matters.
Is it ok to think the overdose is what killed him?
Why is it important for you to believe that? When both the ME and the ER doc ruled it out. When the actual cause of death is seen pretty clearly on video.
Because you need 1/12 on that jury that sees it that way and he either gets a reduced sentance or none at all.
Honestly, cops get away with all kinds of shit. If I were a betting man Id say Chauvin goes free.
I have no confidence in the system in this case. The prosecution has presented the case. The video evidence has shown what happened. Chauvin had a long history of complaints that were ignored. The testimony has been gutwrenching. It could be like Rodney King all over again. I hope he doesn't get away with it but we'll see what happens. Reforms are long overdue. Hoping for the best but not expecting much.
have those complaint records been made public? I was wondering about those if they showed a pattern of victims.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Vikergirl said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
Legal experts have been skeptical of the prosecutions charges and strategy since about day 1, this will be interesting to say the least.
What are YOU hoping for, Jimmy?
I am hoping for justice for all involved, i am hoping that the outcome doesn't create more innocent victims through continued vandalism and violence of those unaccepting of the verdict.
I dont believe the cops actions were legal or justified. I dont believe the victim was either innocent nor a good person. I do believe that some good may come from his death, but we need to get past the anger and twister truths before we can have that conversation that may lead to that good.
I know that you are baiting me so go ahead and so what it is you want to say.
Not baiting you. This was a good answer. Personally, i think Floyd's history of beating puppies or whatever it was he did is irrelevant. Zanary complains that he was unworthy of "three televised funerals." That's not about George Floyd. That's about what he represents.
I don't understand the need some people have to denigrate him, as if it matters.
Is it ok to think the overdose is what killed him?
Why is it important for you to believe that? When both the ME and the ER doc ruled it out. When the actual cause of death is seen pretty clearly on video.
Because you need 1/12 on that jury that sees it that way and he either gets a reduced sentance or none at all.
Honestly, cops get away with all kinds of shit. If I were a betting man Id say Chauvin goes free.
I have no confidence in the system in this case. The prosecution has presented the case. The video evidence has shown what happened. Chauvin had a long history of complaints that were ignored. The testimony has been gutwrenching. It could be like Rodney King all over again. I hope he doesn't get away with it but we'll see what happens. Reforms are long overdue. Hoping for the best but not expecting much.
have those complaint records been made public? I was wondering about those if they showed a pattern of victims.
Yeah they are out there, just look, only 6 complaints will be admissible as evidence in this trial.
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/derek...ife-2020-6
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
i would be surprised if the defense doesnt have a circus of ER professionals that will talk about what person dying from a meth/fentanyl overdose experience before collapsing. the most common response from those OD victims, before they go unconscious is "I cant breath", this is coming from an ER RN in hennepin county who deals with ODs quite regularly on her shifts. I also expect they will have experts testifying to the tox drug levels in his system and if they feel that those factor into the death. I doubt the defense is going to go for complete innocence, the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming, but there are likely a litany of other factors that will play in being used to bring the jurors back from the ledge that the prosecution has them on.
Who knows what the jurors are thinking?
Nothing surprises me anymore. Hell, I always come back to "if the glove don't fit..."
Anyways, this brings us right back to the tremendous energy and time expended b4 this trial began - for MS 3.
who is MS 3?
Manslaughter 3 charges vs Manslaughter 2.
Using "precise science," Dr. Tobin said Floyd lapsed into unconsciousness shortly before 8:25 p.m. on May 25 as his oxygen levels plummeted.
Floyd stopped breathing 23 seconds later and "didn't have an ounce of oxygen in his body" less than a minute after losing consciousness, Tobin said. He noted the moment Floyd died when shown the bystander video of his final moments.
"At the beginning you can see he's conscious, you can see slight flickering and then it disappears, so one second he's alive and one second he's no longer," Tobin said. "...That's the moment the life goes out of his body."
After Floyd's breathing ceased, the doctor said that Chauvin's "knee remained on the neck for another 3 minutes and 2 seconds."
The doctor also challenged the defense contention that the powerful opioid fentanyl was a factor in Floyd's death. Analyzing Floyd's breathing rate by viewing one of the officer's body-camera video, Tobin found the rate to be in the normal range. Fentanyl, he said, sharply reduces a person's breathing rate.
Therefore, he said, "Basically it's telling you fentanyl is not on board, it is not having an effect on his respiratory centers."
Tobin, who is based at Hines VA hospital in Chicago and Loyola University, added, "The cause of the low level of oxygen was shallow breathing; small breaths ... that weren't able to carry the air through his lungs down to the essential areas of the lungs that get oxygen into the blood and get rid of the carbon dioxide."
Tobin listed the factors leading to Floyd being unable to take in oxygen, among them, "He is turned prone on the street, that he has the handcuffs in place combined with the street, and that he has a knee on his neck, and he has a knee in his back and side."
https://www.startribune.com/expert-that-...600043531/
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
i would be surprised if the defense doesnt have a circus of ER professionals that will talk about what person dying from a meth/fentanyl overdose experience before collapsing. the most common response from those OD victims, before they go unconscious is "I cant breath", this is coming from an ER RN in hennepin county who deals with ODs quite regularly on her shifts. I also expect they will have experts testifying to the tox drug levels in his system and if they feel that those factor into the death. I doubt the defense is going to go for complete innocence, the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming, but there are likely a litany of other factors that will play in being used to bring the jurors back from the ledge that the prosecution has them on.
Who knows what the jurors are thinking?
Nothing surprises me anymore. Hell, I always come back to "if the glove don't fit..."
Anyways, this brings us right back to the tremendous energy and time expended b4 this trial began - for MS 3.
who is MS 3?
Manslaughter 3 charges vs Manslaughter 2.
Using "precise science," Dr. Tobin said Floyd lapsed into unconsciousness shortly before 8:25 p.m. on May 25 as his oxygen levels plummeted.
Floyd stopped breathing 23 seconds later and "didn't have an ounce of oxygen in his body" less than a minute after losing consciousness, Tobin said. He noted the moment Floyd died when shown the bystander video of his final moments.
"At the beginning you can see he's conscious, you can see slight flickering and then it disappears, so one second he's alive and one second he's no longer," Tobin said. "...That's the moment the life goes out of his body."
After Floyd's breathing ceased, the doctor said that Chauvin's "knee remained on the neck for another 3 minutes and 2 seconds."
The doctor also challenged the defense contention that the powerful opioid fentanyl was a factor in Floyd's death. Analyzing Floyd's breathing rate by viewing one of the officer's body-camera video, Tobin found the rate to be in the normal range. Fentanyl, he said, sharply reduces a person's breathing rate.
Therefore, he said, "Basically it's telling you fentanyl is not on board, it is not having an effect on his respiratory centers."
Tobin, who is based at Hines VA hospital in Chicago and Loyola University, added, "The cause of the low level of oxygen was shallow breathing; small breaths ... that weren't able to carry the air through his lungs down to the essential areas of the lungs that get oxygen into the blood and get rid of the carbon dioxide."
Tobin listed the factors leading to Floyd being unable to take in oxygen, among them, "He is turned prone on the street, that he has the handcuffs in place combined with the street, and that he has a knee on his neck, and he has a knee in his back and side."
https://www.startribune.com/expert-that-...600043531/
Now we are back to trust the science, you can bet the defense will have science of its own that will refute the science presented this far...so again who is the best liar.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
i would be surprised if the defense doesnt have a circus of ER professionals that will talk about what person dying from a meth/fentanyl overdose experience before collapsing. the most common response from those OD victims, before they go unconscious is "I cant breath", this is coming from an ER RN in hennepin county who deals with ODs quite regularly on her shifts. I also expect they will have experts testifying to the tox drug levels in his system and if they feel that those factor into the death. I doubt the defense is going to go for complete innocence, the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming, but there are likely a litany of other factors that will play in being used to bring the jurors back from the ledge that the prosecution has them on.
Who knows what the jurors are thinking?
Nothing surprises me anymore. Hell, I always come back to "if the glove don't fit..."
Anyways, this brings us right back to the tremendous energy and time expended b4 this trial began - for MS 3.
who is MS 3?
Manslaughter 3 charges vs Manslaughter 2.
Using "precise science," Dr. Tobin said Floyd lapsed into unconsciousness shortly before 8:25 p.m. on May 25 as his oxygen levels plummeted.
Floyd stopped breathing 23 seconds later and "didn't have an ounce of oxygen in his body" less than a minute after losing consciousness, Tobin said. He noted the moment Floyd died when shown the bystander video of his final moments.
"At the beginning you can see he's conscious, you can see slight flickering and then it disappears, so one second he's alive and one second he's no longer," Tobin said. "...That's the moment the life goes out of his body."
After Floyd's breathing ceased, the doctor said that Chauvin's "knee remained on the neck for another 3 minutes and 2 seconds."
The doctor also challenged the defense contention that the powerful opioid fentanyl was a factor in Floyd's death. Analyzing Floyd's breathing rate by viewing one of the officer's body-camera video, Tobin found the rate to be in the normal range. Fentanyl, he said, sharply reduces a person's breathing rate.
Therefore, he said, "Basically it's telling you fentanyl is not on board, it is not having an effect on his respiratory centers."
Tobin, who is based at Hines VA hospital in Chicago and Loyola University, added, "The cause of the low level of oxygen was shallow breathing; small breaths ... that weren't able to carry the air through his lungs down to the essential areas of the lungs that get oxygen into the blood and get rid of the carbon dioxide."
Tobin listed the factors leading to Floyd being unable to take in oxygen, among them, "He is turned prone on the street, that he has the handcuffs in place combined with the street, and that he has a knee on his neck, and he has a knee in his back and side."
https://www.startribune.com/expert-that-...600043531/
Now we are back to trust the science, you can bet the defense will have science of its own that will refute the science presented this far...so again who is the best liar.
Medical science. So yes, Fentanyl is in his system. Yep, Floyd wasn't any choir boy and probably a POS. Yep, the doctor is making some educated guesses about breathing while looking at video. I get why the defense is hanging onto that. But again, its not like science is debatable. There aren't two truths here, there is one truth. Its a trial and we are seeing what defense attorneys do: blur the lines and try to create reasonable doubt, which I'm telling you as a former jury foreman is VERY difficult to explain to most lay people on the jury. They have a hard time grasping it. They focus on the 'doubt' part instead of the 'reasonable' part.
The guy put his knee into his neck with all his weight for 9 minutes, this is why Floyd is dead. But if OJ Simpson can get off, anything goes.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
i would be surprised if the defense doesnt have a circus of ER professionals that will talk about what person dying from a meth/fentanyl overdose experience before collapsing. the most common response from those OD victims, before they go unconscious is "I cant breath", this is coming from an ER RN in hennepin county who deals with ODs quite regularly on her shifts. I also expect they will have experts testifying to the tox drug levels in his system and if they feel that those factor into the death. I doubt the defense is going to go for complete innocence, the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming, but there are likely a litany of other factors that will play in being used to bring the jurors back from the ledge that the prosecution has them on.
Who knows what the jurors are thinking?
Nothing surprises me anymore. Hell, I always come back to "if the glove don't fit..."
Anyways, this brings us right back to the tremendous energy and time expended b4 this trial began - for MS 3.
who is MS 3?
Manslaughter 3 charges vs Manslaughter 2.
Using "precise science," Dr. Tobin said Floyd lapsed into unconsciousness shortly before 8:25 p.m. on May 25 as his oxygen levels plummeted.
Floyd stopped breathing 23 seconds later and "didn't have an ounce of oxygen in his body" less than a minute after losing consciousness, Tobin said. He noted the moment Floyd died when shown the bystander video of his final moments.
"At the beginning you can see he's conscious, you can see slight flickering and then it disappears, so one second he's alive and one second he's no longer," Tobin said. "...That's the moment the life goes out of his body."
After Floyd's breathing ceased, the doctor said that Chauvin's "knee remained on the neck for another 3 minutes and 2 seconds."
The doctor also challenged the defense contention that the powerful opioid fentanyl was a factor in Floyd's death. Analyzing Floyd's breathing rate by viewing one of the officer's body-camera video, Tobin found the rate to be in the normal range. Fentanyl, he said, sharply reduces a person's breathing rate.
Therefore, he said, "Basically it's telling you fentanyl is not on board, it is not having an effect on his respiratory centers."
Tobin, who is based at Hines VA hospital in Chicago and Loyola University, added, "The cause of the low level of oxygen was shallow breathing; small breaths ... that weren't able to carry the air through his lungs down to the essential areas of the lungs that get oxygen into the blood and get rid of the carbon dioxide."
Tobin listed the factors leading to Floyd being unable to take in oxygen, among them, "He is turned prone on the street, that he has the handcuffs in place combined with the street, and that he has a knee on his neck, and he has a knee in his back and side."
https://www.startribune.com/expert-that-...600043531/
Now we are back to trust the science, you can bet the defense will have science of its own that will refute the science presented this far...so again who is the best liar.
Medical science. So yes, Fentanyl is in his system. Yep, Floyd wasn't any choir boy and probably a POS. Yep, the doctor is making some educated guesses about breathing while looking at video. I get why the defense is hanging onto that. But again, its not like science is debatable. There aren't two truths here, there is one truth. Its a trial and we are seeing what defense attorneys do: blur the lines and try to create reasonable doubt, which I'm telling you as a former jury foreman is VERY difficult to explain to most lay people on the jury. They have a hard time grasping it. They focus on the 'doubt' part instead of the 'reasonable' part.
The guy put his knee into his neck with all his weight for 9 minutes, this is why Floyd is dead. But if OJ Simpson can get off, anything goes.
Isn't a jury foreman just a lay person that won a popularity contest? I've never been selected to sit, does the foreman get some special training to make them more aware of legal proceedings and how to receive the information?
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
i would be surprised if the defense doesnt have a circus of ER professionals that will talk about what person dying from a meth/fentanyl overdose experience before collapsing. the most common response from those OD victims, before they go unconscious is "I cant breath", this is coming from an ER RN in hennepin county who deals with ODs quite regularly on her shifts. I also expect they will have experts testifying to the tox drug levels in his system and if they feel that those factor into the death. I doubt the defense is going to go for complete innocence, the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming, but there are likely a litany of other factors that will play in being used to bring the jurors back from the ledge that the prosecution has them on.
Who knows what the jurors are thinking?
Nothing surprises me anymore. Hell, I always come back to "if the glove don't fit..."
Anyways, this brings us right back to the tremendous energy and time expended b4 this trial began - for MS 3.
who is MS 3?
Manslaughter 3 charges vs Manslaughter 2.
Using "precise science," Dr. Tobin said Floyd lapsed into unconsciousness shortly before 8:25 p.m. on May 25 as his oxygen levels plummeted.
Floyd stopped breathing 23 seconds later and "didn't have an ounce of oxygen in his body" less than a minute after losing consciousness, Tobin said. He noted the moment Floyd died when shown the bystander video of his final moments.
"At the beginning you can see he's conscious, you can see slight flickering and then it disappears, so one second he's alive and one second he's no longer," Tobin said. "...That's the moment the life goes out of his body."
After Floyd's breathing ceased, the doctor said that Chauvin's "knee remained on the neck for another 3 minutes and 2 seconds."
The doctor also challenged the defense contention that the powerful opioid fentanyl was a factor in Floyd's death. Analyzing Floyd's breathing rate by viewing one of the officer's body-camera video, Tobin found the rate to be in the normal range. Fentanyl, he said, sharply reduces a person's breathing rate.
Therefore, he said, "Basically it's telling you fentanyl is not on board, it is not having an effect on his respiratory centers."
Tobin, who is based at Hines VA hospital in Chicago and Loyola University, added, "The cause of the low level of oxygen was shallow breathing; small breaths ... that weren't able to carry the air through his lungs down to the essential areas of the lungs that get oxygen into the blood and get rid of the carbon dioxide."
Tobin listed the factors leading to Floyd being unable to take in oxygen, among them, "He is turned prone on the street, that he has the handcuffs in place combined with the street, and that he has a knee on his neck, and he has a knee in his back and side."
https://www.startribune.com/expert-that-...600043531/
Now we are back to trust the science, you can bet the defense will have science of its own that will refute the science presented this far...so again who is the best liar.
Medical science. So yes, Fentanyl is in his system. Yep, Floyd wasn't any choir boy and probably a POS. Yep, the doctor is making some educated guesses about breathing while looking at video. I get why the defense is hanging onto that. But again, its not like science is debatable. There aren't two truths here, there is one truth. Its a trial and we are seeing what defense attorneys do: blur the lines and try to create reasonable doubt, which I'm telling you as a former jury foreman is VERY difficult to explain to most lay people on the jury. They have a hard time grasping it. They focus on the 'doubt' part instead of the 'reasonable' part.
The guy put his knee into his neck with all his weight for 9 minutes, this is why Floyd is dead. But if OJ Simpson can get off, anything goes.
Isn't a jury foreman just a lay person that won a popularity contest? I've never been selected to sit, does the foreman get some special training to make them more aware of legal proceedings and how to receive the information?
Yep, its just about herding the cats in the jury box.  No special training, but common sense and the ability to read and presenting the letter of the law and the charges together so that a consensus can be reached. The eye opening part for me was the level of intelligence by a 'jury of your peers'. Yikes.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
i would be surprised if the defense doesnt have a circus of ER professionals that will talk about what person dying from a meth/fentanyl overdose experience before collapsing. the most common response from those OD victims, before they go unconscious is "I cant breath", this is coming from an ER RN in hennepin county who deals with ODs quite regularly on her shifts. I also expect they will have experts testifying to the tox drug levels in his system and if they feel that those factor into the death. I doubt the defense is going to go for complete innocence, the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming, but there are likely a litany of other factors that will play in being used to bring the jurors back from the ledge that the prosecution has them on.
Who knows what the jurors are thinking?
Nothing surprises me anymore. Hell, I always come back to "if the glove don't fit..."
Anyways, this brings us right back to the tremendous energy and time expended b4 this trial began - for MS 3.
who is MS 3?
Manslaughter 3 charges vs Manslaughter 2.
Using "precise science," Dr. Tobin said Floyd lapsed into unconsciousness shortly before 8:25 p.m. on May 25 as his oxygen levels plummeted.
Floyd stopped breathing 23 seconds later and "didn't have an ounce of oxygen in his body" less than a minute after losing consciousness, Tobin said. He noted the moment Floyd died when shown the bystander video of his final moments.
"At the beginning you can see he's conscious, you can see slight flickering and then it disappears, so one second he's alive and one second he's no longer," Tobin said. "...That's the moment the life goes out of his body."
After Floyd's breathing ceased, the doctor said that Chauvin's "knee remained on the neck for another 3 minutes and 2 seconds."
The doctor also challenged the defense contention that the powerful opioid fentanyl was a factor in Floyd's death. Analyzing Floyd's breathing rate by viewing one of the officer's body-camera video, Tobin found the rate to be in the normal range. Fentanyl, he said, sharply reduces a person's breathing rate.
Therefore, he said, "Basically it's telling you fentanyl is not on board, it is not having an effect on his respiratory centers."
Tobin, who is based at Hines VA hospital in Chicago and Loyola University, added, "The cause of the low level of oxygen was shallow breathing; small breaths ... that weren't able to carry the air through his lungs down to the essential areas of the lungs that get oxygen into the blood and get rid of the carbon dioxide."
Tobin listed the factors leading to Floyd being unable to take in oxygen, among them, "He is turned prone on the street, that he has the handcuffs in place combined with the street, and that he has a knee on his neck, and he has a knee in his back and side."
https://www.startribune.com/expert-that-...600043531/
Now we are back to trust the science, you can bet the defense will have science of its own that will refute the science presented this far...so again who is the best liar.
Medical science. So yes, Fentanyl is in his system. Yep, Floyd wasn't any choir boy and probably a POS. Yep, the doctor is making some educated guesses about breathing while looking at video. I get why the defense is hanging onto that. But again, its not like science is debatable. There aren't two truths here, there is one truth. Its a trial and we are seeing what defense attorneys do: blur the lines and try to create reasonable doubt, which I'm telling you as a former jury foreman is VERY difficult to explain to most lay people on the jury. They have a hard time grasping it. They focus on the 'doubt' part instead of the 'reasonable' part.
The guy put his knee into his neck with all his weight for 9 minutes, this is why Floyd is dead. But if OJ Simpson can get off, anything goes.
Isn't a jury foreman just a lay person that won a popularity contest? I've never been selected to sit, does the foreman get some special training to make them more aware of legal proceedings and how to receive the information?
Yep, its just about herding the cats in the jury box. No special training, but common sense and the ability to read and presenting the letter of the law and the charges together so that a consensus can be reached. The eye opening part for me was the level of intelligence by a 'jury of your peers'. Yikes.
Doesn't surprise me in the least...The older I get? The less respect I have for my fellow citizens. Sad, but true. Just look at how this country and people have handled the pandemic for example.
When I thought a national crisis would pull us together? We found a way to politicize and find divisiveness.
Underscores the importance of trying not to ever let yourself get in a position where you're fate is subject to the whim/judgement of others.
I have a relative doing 40 years for a crime that would have been 7-10 99% of the time. That's our system and it's downright scary.
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