Overall I give Rick and Vikings an A- because they didn't take advantage of the WR talent in the draft to upgrade the developmental depth on the team over what we currently have, we didn't come away with a true starting left guard that can step in immediately, and we still have question marks on the DLine. Where I think Rick underestimated this year's draft and it ended up costing him was the draft pick points chart went out the window this year. Teams overvalued their picks and it prevented us from making aggressive moves to go get the players we were targeting. You could almost say that the trade with the Saints at 105 looked good on paper, but in reality it wasn't enough value when we passed on so many players that could have competed for starting positions. 105 was a perfect time to grab Bartch and plug him in at Left Guard. Clearly, some of the non-picks we wanted them to take did not align with their evaluation of the current talent on the roster. Right or wrong, that's reality and the Vikings have always been partial to their draft picks even when the performance on the field proves otherwise.
Quote: @minny65
Brady & Gronk plus some good free agents have really covered for Belichick's horrible drafting for quite some time. If you were to go back 5 and maybe 10 years I bet he would be towards the bottom 5 in drafting players who got starting time with the Patriots.
Many fans say either Brady made Belichick or visa versa. I don't think this year will be a fair judgment of that argument. Brady is what 42? Age matters to a player in a bad way which age for a GM/coach should actually improve in terms of drafting. Now I am not trying to ignore Belechicks pre game and in-game preparation he is one of the best. I am just saying the draft = awful.
O'Brien from the Belichick tree looks to be worse in the few years he has been GM/coach...awful.
Packers GM - Gutekuntz 2 years look horrible but I am judging this year very harshly they did get Savage and a starting LG last year (injury fill-in but looked OK)
IMO - I think Mayock and Gruden are awful as well but I am judging not just the draft but the Khalil Mack and Cooper trades.
Exactly right. Belichick is a great defensive mind and head coach, but he sucks as a drafter. Everyone in draft circles knows this, too. It's the rest of sports media who seem to assume he's good at it because he does everything else well.
I loved watching Mayock on NFLN. He made one of my passions (the draft) much more popular, which meant news and commentary about it became much more available. He was great as a TV personality and draft analyst. But as an evaluator of talent, I always thought he was one of the worst. If you want proof of this, go look at his top 5 rankings through the years.
But who knew he'd be this bad at gauging VALUE. Last year he took Clelin Ferrell, a player most teams had graded as a 2nd rounder, at #4 overall. This year he took Damon Arnette, a 3rd rounder by most analysts, at #19 in the first round. He seems to do better later in the draft, but he sucks in the 1st round.
Looks like an A to me. Jefferson at 22 was as much luck as skill, but the trade back for Gladney was Draft 101: get your guy plus 2 picks. Cleveland again was the board falling to us.. a slightly bigger Brian O'Neill at 58.
The pick that could really send this draft over the top IMO is 89. If Dantzler's the guy on his game film instead of the combine, Spielman stole him.
#105. Sigh. OK, nobody's perfect :p But wait: that pick turned into #130 Lynch, #169 Hand, #203 Brandel and #244 Stanley. My guess is Lynch, Hand and Stanley all make the final 53.
The 5th round. Oh boy :#
#155 I remember in chat immediately saying "This better be for a 4th next year". And it was. This year, there were a whopping 10 3rd round comp picks pushing back the start of round 4 to pick 107. Even if that happens again and the Bears win the Super Bowl, that 4th rounder would be #138. So at the minimum Rick gained 17 slots in next year's draft. OTOH....Tyler Johnson, dammit.
#169 and #176. So... trade out of Tyler Johnson, take KJ Osborne over Proche, and take Hand with Muti and Anae still available. Was Rick hacked by Belichick's dog?
6th round: At this point I'd never heard of most of these guys, so, whatever, Rick :p
#201+219=#225 +2021 5th. The 32nd pick in round 5 this year was #178, so RS dropped 6 slots this year for 20+ slots upward next year. And I'd actually heard of/seen #205 Metellus, so, bonus B)
7th round: Anybody who gets seriously upset in the 7th round needs help. The guy I was happy to get was Stanley. 3-year starter, pro-style system, 27-12 record, big arm. OK, he's not a runner and his accuracy comes and goes. What are people expecting at #244, Joe Burrow? I had to laugh at the Vikings finally picking a G at 253. Talk about lip service.
In summary: When we have 15 picks and 4 trades, add 2 picks for next year, and all I can bitch about is the 5th round, that's nailing it. Grade A
I'm going to give a grade very similar to others: high for the first two days, and for day 3...puzzled or worse.
Justin Jefferson: Great pick, and finally some good fortune when a position we desired starts to get a "run". I figured he was an Eagle and we would be picking from one of the next tier. I actually think Jefferson was the best WR prospect in this draft, or maybe 2nd after Lamb. There are several who could become better (Higgins, Shenault, Mims) but are more boom/bust guys.
One issue with Justin Jefferson- we traded Stefon Diggs for him, essentially straight up. It's possible he will become as good or better, but the NFL is littered with "can't miss" first rounders who did miss. I wouldn't have traded a young, proven star WR for someone who might become a star WR. But Jefferson is a great prospect.
Jeff Gladney: I am surprised we needed to pick a CB so high. The rest of the draft and even UDFA suggests the Vikings are going to throw quantity at the defensive backfield, and that training is less critical than a top pedigree. Unlike Jefferson, Gladney does not seem like a player we were lucky to see still available, but seems very close to Jaylon Johnson, Travon Diggs, and Kristian Fulton. I would have been more impressed if they had picked Yetur Gross-Matos, Ross Blacklock, Antoine Winfield, or Robert Hunt.
Ezra Cleveland: A really good fit and should be a great bookend with O'Neill. I assume the plan is for him to sit in 2020 (if anyone plays) and replace Reiff in 2021.
Cam Dantzler: We're getting into "Just trust our GM and coaches" territory now. So - we just waived the best CB this team has had since Antoine Winfield (Sr.) because he's nearing 30 and isn't as fast as he used to be - and drafted a young CB who Xavier Rhodes could still outrun?? OK, I know, 40 time isn't everything...but that's what people were saying about Laquon Treadwell 4 years ago, isn't it? Dantzler looks like a good player on tape and probably had a bad run at the combine, but it's a yellow flag.
Second 3rd-round pick: Hey, where did that go? Oh, traded down for more picks on day 3. No one was available who could have helped the Vikings, not an OL like Ben Bartch or DT Leki Fotu.
We did get a DT, kinda and eventually, in round 4 drafting James Lynch. But we are either converting him from DE to a 3T, or are the Vikings going to be in a 3-4 much more than expected? He seems like a great-effort player so he's kind of the opposite of Jalyn Holmes.
As for the rest of our numerous late-round picks, I'm going to analyze them with history: in two years, we will be lucky if more than 3 of them are on the roster and 1 of those might be a part-time contributor. Oh no - from this glorious haul, when the Vikings are so good with late round picks? Yes. There have been many drafts when we had a large number of late picks (most of any team since Spielman took over drafting), but show me any draft when the Vikings have achieved more. Last season, what remained from 2018? Jalyn Holmes and Tyler Conklin. 2017 - Jaleel Johnson and Ben Gedeon. OK, Ifeadi Odenigbo - though technically we waived him, more than once, and he is officially a waiver acquisition from the last team he bounced around. No, the incredible athletic TE Bucky Hodges is gone, so is the ideal fit for a zone OG Danny Isadora, and even the superb athlete shoulda-been-3rd-rounder LB Elijah Lee.
And 2017 was a GOOD year for late round picks. Quick quiz: name any Viking player on the current active roster who was drafted by the Vikings before 2017 after the 3rd round. Answer: NO ONE! Unless you cheat and count Shamar Stephen (claimed on waivers from Seattle) or David Morgan (injured, not active), every day 3 pick chosen more than 3 years ago is gone. Yeah, we struck gold with Stefon Diggs but that's the only blue-chip starting player even though Spielman has picked more players in rounds 4-7 than any other team. I dug into this before the 2019 draft and I have no doubt Spielman still leads the way after this year.
https://vikefans.com/vfforums/discussion/7897/vikings-lead-the-nfl-in-day-3-draft-picks#latest
Rick Spielman likes to make draft picks - as many as he can. But he seems to be the kind of kid who thinks having 4 nickels is better than having 2 quarters, and I'm afraid other NFL execs know he's the guy to call whenever they want to trade up.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ Wetlander said:
It's funny the outrage over guys that most of us have never watched (or focused on) or heard of prior to them being drafted.
Speak for yourself. I watched plenty of him while evaluating Kinlaw. And I've watched plenty of him since the pick. And studied up on profiles. He will have a role on the team. And he could have been had much later. With Guards and Receivers and higher potential Safeties sitting there. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Willekes does more.
And we're hardly alone in this opinion. Even amongst Vikings-centric analysts this was the biggest head scratcher of the Draft.
And Patterson isn't perfect. Wither Jalyn Holmes? Ade Aruna? Bower? He didn't pick Everson. The record is good, it's not above reproach.
I'm not trying to be an asshole, but your posts are much better when they are more Matt Bowen instead of Skip Bayless.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
Rick Spielman likes to make draft picks - as many as he can. But he seems to be the kind of kid who thinks having 4 nickels is better than having 2 quarters, and I'm afraid other NFL execs know he's the guy to call whenever they want to trade up.
When you're throwing them all at a craps wall, 4 nickels is better than 2 quarters.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
I'm going to give a grade very similar to others: high for the first two days, and for day 3...puzzled or worse.
Justin Jefferson: Great pick, and finally some good fortune when a position we desired starts to get a "run". I figured he was an Eagle and we would be picking from one of the next tier. I actually think Jefferson was the best WR prospect in this draft, or maybe 2nd after Lamb. There are several who could become better (Higgins, Shenault, Mims) but are more boom/bust guys.
One issue with Justin Jefferson- we traded Stefon Diggs for him, essentially straight up. It's possible he will become as good or better, but the NFL is littered with "can't miss" first rounders who did miss. I wouldn't have traded a young, proven star WR for someone who might become a star WR. But Jefferson is a great prospect.
Jeff Gladney: I am surprised we needed to pick a CB so high. The rest of the draft and even UDFA suggests the Vikings are going to throw quantity at the defensive backfield, and that training is less critical than a top pedigree. Unlike Jefferson, Gladney does not seem like a player we were lucky to see still available, but seems very close to Jaylon Johnson, Travon Diggs, and Kristian Fulton. I would have been more impressed if they had picked Yetur Gross-Matos, Ross Blacklock, Antoine Winfield, or Robert Hunt.
Ezra Cleveland: A really good fit and should be a great bookend with O'Neill. I assume the plan is for him to sit in 2020 (if anyone plays) and replace Reiff in 2021.
Cam Dantzler: We're getting into "Just trust our GM and coaches" territory now. So - we just waived the best CB this team has had since Antoine Winfield (Sr.) because he's nearing 30 and isn't as fast as he used to be - and drafted a young CB who Xavier Rhodes could still outrun?? OK, I know, 40 time isn't everything...but that's what people were saying about Laquon Treadwell 4 years ago, isn't it? Dantzler looks like a good player on tape and probably had a bad run at the combine, but it's a yellow flag.
Second 3rd-round pick: Hey, where did that go? Oh, traded down for more picks on day 3. No one was available who could have helped the Vikings, not an OL like Ben Bartch or DT Leki Fotu.
We did get a DT, kinda and eventually, in round 4 drafting James Lynch. But we are either converting him from DE to a 3T, or are the Vikings going to be in a 3-4 much more than expected? He seems like a great-effort player so he's kind of the opposite of Jalyn Holmes.
As for the rest of our numerous late-round picks, I'm going to analyze them with history: in two years, we will be lucky if more than 3 of them are on the roster and 1 of those might be a part-time contributor. Oh no - from this glorious haul, when the Vikings are so good with late round picks? Yes. There have been many drafts when we had a large number of late picks (most of any team since Spielman took over drafting), but show me any draft when the Vikings have achieved more. Last season, what remained from 2018? Jalyn Holmes and Tyler Conklin. 2017 - Jaleel Johnson and Ben Gedeon. OK, Ifeadi Odenigbo - though technically we waived him, more than once, and he is officially a waiver acquisition from the last team he bounced around. No, the incredible athletic TE Bucky Hodges is gone, so is the ideal fit for a zone OG Danny Isadora, and even the superb athlete shoulda-been-3rd-rounder LB Elijah Lee.
And 2017 was a GOOD year for late round picks. Quick quiz: name any Viking player on the current active roster who was drafted by the Vikings before 2017 after the 3rd round. Answer: NO ONE! Unless you cheat and count Shamar Stephen (claimed on waivers from Seattle) or David Morgan (injured, not active), every day 3 pick chosen more than 3 years ago is gone. Yeah, we struck gold with Stefon Diggs but that's the only blue-chip starting player even though Spielman has picked more players in rounds 4-7 than any other team. I dug into this before the 2019 draft and I have no doubt Spielman still leads the way after this year.
https://vikefans.com/vfforums/discussion/7897/vikings-lead-the-nfl-in-day-3-draft-picks#latest
Rick Spielman likes to make draft picks - as many as he can. But he seems to be the kind of kid who thinks having 4 nickels is better than having 2 quarters, and I'm afraid other NFL execs know he's the guy to call whenever they want to trade up.
I am beginning to think this is why he can never trade up. Or he is just too covetous of his 6th and 7th rounders.
Quote: @kmillard said:
I am beginning to think this is why he can never trade up. He traded up for both Dalvin Cook and Elflein in '18 and I think Samia in '19. This year he tried to go up to #13 and TB wouldn't even take the call (see "About That Trade Up" thread).
So, yes, we didn't trade up this year, but that doesn't mean he can't or didn't try.
To have immovable opinions about a Draft class 3 days after the fact is silly, we should all know this. Nobody knows what the hell is actually going to happen with this group.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
To have immovable opinions about a Draft class 3 days after the fact is silly, we should all know this. Nobody knows what the hell is actually going to happen with this group.
Exactly... those of us who are really into the draft always have our "favorites" in the early rounds and get hot on a couple guys projected as sleepers or mid-late round picks. The hard part is that it is impossible to have an informed opinion on every prospect in the draft. Unless you are paid to be a scout, chances are you haven't heard of 2/3's of the guys who end up getting drafted.
I really wanted us to draft Ben Bartch with that comp 3rd that ended up being three 4th round picks. Then I wanted a trade up for Bartch and for us to draft Antonio Gandy-Golden. I love his size, hands, and thought he could be that "power forward" guy that we don't have in our WR room. I was also pounding the table for Fromm in the 4th as a backup QB with upside.
We didn't pick any of them, but I didn't immediately trash the picks. I dug in to learn more about them and I can see why we took those guys when we did. Jamaal Stephenson had some really good things to say about Wonnum so Patterson wasn't the only guy that liked him... Dye looks like a Jayron Kearse clone with his length and coverage ability... Lynch was the guy I liked the least because I was looking at him through the lens of a DE (his college position)... But as a DT or interior pash rusher, I like him a lot more now that I've learned more about him.
I'm fine with people giving their opinions and giving some of these Day 3 picks a poor draft grade... It's when you start claiming it was a terrible pick and stating like fact that we could have drafted so and so later is where you lose me.
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