Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-spo...ony-harris
Reading a lot of great things about Harris. 12th best player in the NFL. Vikings have the best safety tandem in the NFL and no one else is even close.
It sure does beg the question, so why did our pass defense suck so bad? Best safeties in the NFL. I'd put our edge rushers in the top 5, too. I think most would. And our linebackers in pass coverage among the best as well.
Was Rhodes and our interior rush SO bad that none of that mattered? Something is just not adding up.
I have a feeling we're all going to wake up (hopefully) in 2030 and say "wow, remember the late teens and all that talent we had? Best safeties, top WR duo, great back, top rated QB, all pro edge rushers, all pro linebackers....and we just couldn't fucking win." I don't think most fans realize just how unusual it is to have this much talent on a roster.
Why is it that this team can't seem to mitigate weaknesses like other teams? Sure we need better pass protection, but I've seen teams win Super Bowls with worse offensive lines. 49ers kicked our ass with a worse IOL than ours. Chiefs won a Super Bowl with an interior line consisting of a journeyman left guard on his 4th team, 6th round right guard, and a 7th round center on his 4th team. Yeah, I know, Mahomes. But still....
We have THREE 1st rounders at corner. With the exception of Richard Sherman, who is two years older than our "too old" corner, all of the corners who played in the Super Bowl are league average players on their 2nd and 3rd teams. But we need 1st rounders everywhere?
I fear that we can keep and add all the talent in the world and it's not going to matter. Talent ain't the problem. Rant over.
If its not an issue of talent, then what else is there? Motivation and Scheme seem to be whats left and that goes back to fingers pointing at coaching and GM IMO.
Well you're half right.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-spo...ony-harris
Reading a lot of great things about Harris. 12th best player in the NFL. Vikings have the best safety tandem in the NFL and no one else is even close.
It sure does beg the question, so why did our pass defense suck so bad? Best safeties in the NFL. I'd put our edge rushers in the top 5, too. I think most would. And our linebackers in pass coverage among the best as well.
Was Rhodes and our interior rush SO bad that none of that mattered? Something is just not adding up.
I have a feeling we're all going to wake up (hopefully) in 2030 and say "wow, remember the late teens and all that talent we had? Best safeties, top WR duo, great back, top rated QB, all pro edge rushers, all pro linebackers....and we just couldn't fucking win." I don't think most fans realize just how unusual it is to have this much talent on a roster.
Why is it that this team can't seem to mitigate weaknesses like other teams? Sure we need better pass protection, but I've seen teams win Super Bowls with worse offensive lines. 49ers kicked our ass with a worse IOL than ours. Chiefs won a Super Bowl with an interior line consisting of a journeyman left guard on his 4th team, 6th round right guard, and a 7th round center on his 4th team. Yeah, I know, Mahomes. But still....
We have THREE 1st rounders at corner. With the exception of Richard Sherman, who is two years older than our "too old" corner, all of the corners who played in the Super Bowl are league average players on their 2nd and 3rd teams. But we need 1st rounders everywhere?
I fear that we can keep and add all the talent in the world and it's not going to matter. Talent ain't the problem. Rant over.
If its not an issue of talent, then what else is there? Motivation and Scheme seem to be whats left and that goes back to fingers pointing at coaching and GM IMO.
Well you're half right.
The GM isnt to blame necessarily for the lack of fire (unless he is just drafting vanilla?) and for the most part I've never really heard to many GMs dictating scheme, but the GM is still on the hook if its a coaching matter IMO as he is the one that typically hires and fires the HC (with owner approval of course)
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-spo...ony-harris
Reading a lot of great things about Harris. 12th best player in the NFL. Vikings have the best safety tandem in the NFL and no one else is even close.
It sure does beg the question, so why did our pass defense suck so bad? Best safeties in the NFL. I'd put our edge rushers in the top 5, too. I think most would. And our linebackers in pass coverage among the best as well.
Was Rhodes and our interior rush SO bad that none of that mattered? Something is just not adding up.
I have a feeling we're all going to wake up (hopefully) in 2030 and say "wow, remember the late teens and all that talent we had? Best safeties, top WR duo, great back, top rated QB, all pro edge rushers, all pro linebackers....and we just couldn't fucking win." I don't think most fans realize just how unusual it is to have this much talent on a roster.
Why is it that this team can't seem to mitigate weaknesses like other teams? Sure we need better pass protection, but I've seen teams win Super Bowls with worse offensive lines. 49ers kicked our ass with a worse IOL than ours. Chiefs won a Super Bowl with an interior line consisting of a journeyman left guard on his 4th team, 6th round right guard, and a 7th round center on his 4th team. Yeah, I know, Mahomes. But still....
We have THREE 1st rounders at corner. With the exception of Richard Sherman, who is two years older than our "too old" corner, all of the corners who played in the Super Bowl are league average players on their 2nd and 3rd teams. But we need 1st rounders everywhere?
I fear that we can keep and add all the talent in the world and it's not going to matter. Talent ain't the problem. Rant over.
Interesting post and I agree.
This is why I'm highly dubious that upgrading the OL and upgrading DT this offseason will somehow produce better results. The other contenders are going to add pieces too! Incremental improvement will probably not make us better than the Chiefs.
Maybe our coaching shakeup helps, but all of the promoted guys were in house this past season too.
Like you, I think Rick Spielman is a good GM. And for the reasons you mentioned, I have been advocating for the Vikings to draft a rookie QB. That's my "cure" suggestion, but your alternate suggestion of speculating that the coaches aren't maximizing the talent also has merit.
I'm all for upgrading the team however we can but with the talent already in house, and aging, I do not believe that a few bandaids will get us over the hump. A more drastic shakeup (such as a new QB) is needed, in my opinion.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-spo...ony-harris
Reading a lot of great things about Harris. 12th best player in the NFL. Vikings have the best safety tandem in the NFL and no one else is even close.
It sure does beg the question, so why did our pass defense suck so bad? Best safeties in the NFL. I'd put our edge rushers in the top 5, too. I think most would. And our linebackers in pass coverage among the best as well.
Was Rhodes and our interior rush SO bad that none of that mattered? Something is just not adding up.
I have a feeling we're all going to wake up (hopefully) in 2030 and say "wow, remember the late teens and all that talent we had? Best safeties, top WR duo, great back, top rated QB, all pro edge rushers, all pro linebackers....and we just couldn't fucking win." I don't think most fans realize just how unusual it is to have this much talent on a roster.
Why is it that this team can't seem to mitigate weaknesses like other teams? Sure we need better pass protection, but I've seen teams win Super Bowls with worse offensive lines. 49ers kicked our ass with a worse IOL than ours. Chiefs won a Super Bowl with an interior line consisting of a journeyman left guard on his 4th team, 6th round right guard, and a 7th round center on his 4th team. Yeah, I know, Mahomes. But still....
We have THREE 1st rounders at corner. With the exception of Richard Sherman, who is two years older than our "too old" corner, all of the corners who played in the Super Bowl are league average players on their 2nd and 3rd teams. But we need 1st rounders everywhere?
I fear that we can keep and add all the talent in the world and it's not going to matter. Talent ain't the problem. Rant over.
If its not an issue of talent, then what else is there? Motivation and Scheme seem to be whats left and that goes back to fingers pointing at coaching and GM IMO.
See, this is what really bugs me. Fans keep putting those two together. And that's the biggest mistake we could possibly make. Like Modell firing Belichick level of mistake. If I'm Zygi and Mark and Rick and Rob and George....I have to be wondering, what in the actual FUCK do you need?
We've given you one of the best stadiums and practice facilities in the league. You ask for free agents, you typically got them. But, no, we don't spend our money foolishly. We operate with incredible efficiency. Top 5 team in terms of dead money. And don't even get me started on the draft. You say you need better offensive linemen and better corners. While the 49ers and Chiefs are playing in the Super Bowl with offensive lines and secondaries made from the scrap heap, you're sitting at home with four 1st rounders in your secondary. Oh, that's not even counting the All Pro UDFA and the 2nd round slot corner. And it's not like any of these have been busts. There's probably not a team in the NFL who has fewer draft busts than the Vikings. About half of players drafted in rounds 1-3 bust in the NFL. Since you've been here, you've been given Bradbury, Irv, Mattison, Hughes, O'Neill, Cook, Kendricks, Barr, Waynes, Hunter, Alexander. Sure, idiot fans who don't know anything about the draft complain about the two busts (Treadwell and Elflein), but you're smarter than that. You recognize that this isn't just good drafting, this is RIDICULOUS drafting. Oh, and did I mention the late rounders and undrafted players you've been given? From Diggs and Thielen to Ant Harris and Mike Boone, Odenigbo, Kearse, Weatherly, Olabisi, etc. You think this is common? Look around the NFL.
I extend Rick. And give him a lifetime contract. And a fucking medal. I don't extend Zimmer. Problem is, he is a pretty good coach, probably a top half coach in the NFL. But I think he has fundamental problems and I don't know what they are. It's just for WHATEVER reason (scheme, motivation, assistants, game plan issues), his team isn't ready in too many games.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-spo...ony-harris
Reading a lot of great things about Harris. 12th best player in the NFL. Vikings have the best safety tandem in the NFL and no one else is even close.
It sure does beg the question, so why did our pass defense suck so bad? Best safeties in the NFL. I'd put our edge rushers in the top 5, too. I think most would. And our linebackers in pass coverage among the best as well.
Was Rhodes and our interior rush SO bad that none of that mattered? Something is just not adding up.
I have a feeling we're all going to wake up (hopefully) in 2030 and say "wow, remember the late teens and all that talent we had? Best safeties, top WR duo, great back, top rated QB, all pro edge rushers, all pro linebackers....and we just couldn't fucking win." I don't think most fans realize just how unusual it is to have this much talent on a roster.
Why is it that this team can't seem to mitigate weaknesses like other teams? Sure we need better pass protection, but I've seen teams win Super Bowls with worse offensive lines. 49ers kicked our ass with a worse IOL than ours. Chiefs won a Super Bowl with an interior line consisting of a journeyman left guard on his 4th team, 6th round right guard, and a 7th round center on his 4th team. Yeah, I know, Mahomes. But still....
We have THREE 1st rounders at corner. With the exception of Richard Sherman, who is two years older than our "too old" corner, all of the corners who played in the Super Bowl are league average players on their 2nd and 3rd teams. But we need 1st rounders everywhere?
I fear that we can keep and add all the talent in the world and it's not going to matter. Talent ain't the problem. Rant over.
If its not an issue of talent, then what else is there? Motivation and Scheme seem to be whats left and that goes back to fingers pointing at coaching and GM IMO.
See, this is what really bugs me. Fans keep putting those two together. And that's the biggest mistake we could possibly make. Like Modell firing Belichick level of mistake. If I'm Zygi and Mark and Rick and Rob and George....I have to be wondering, what in the actual FUCK do you need?
We've given you one of the best stadiums and practice facilities in the league. You ask for free agents, you typically got them. But, no, we don't spend our money foolishly. We operate with incredible efficiency. Top 5 team in terms of dead money. And don't even get me started on the draft. You say you need better offensive linemen and better corners. While the 49ers and Chiefs are playing in the Super Bowl with offensive lines and secondaries made from the scrap heap, you're sitting at home with four 1st rounders in your secondary. Oh, that's not even counting the All Pro UDFA and the 2nd round slot corner. And it's not like any of these have been busts. There's probably not a team in the NFL who has fewer draft busts than the Vikings. About half of players drafted in rounds 1-3 bust in the NFL. Since you've been here, you've been given Bradbury, Irv, Mattison, Hughes, O'Neill, Cook, Kendricks, Barr, Waynes, Hunter, Alexander. Sure, idiot fans who don't know anything about the draft complain about the two busts (Treadwell and Elflein), but you're smarter than that. You recognize that this isn't just good drafting, this is RIDICULOUS drafting. Oh, and did I mention the late rounders and undrafted players you've been given? From Diggs and Thielen to Ant Harris and Mike Boone, Odenigbo, Kearse, Weatherly, Olabisi, etc. You think this is common? Look around the NFL.
I extend Rick. And give him a lifetime contract. And a fucking medal. I don't extend Zimmer. Problem is, he is a pretty good coach, probably a top half coach in the NFL. But I think he has fundamental problems and I don't know what they are. It's just for WHATEVER reason (scheme, motivation, assistants, game plan issues), his team isn't ready in too many games.
How much of Ricks draft success is him getting help from Zim on identifying defensive players that can be worked with in those later rounds?
I dont do anything with either at this point. Zim is wearing thin, but Rick has to convince me that the draft day lightning that he has found with Zimmer is sustainable if Zimmer was gone. And while you and I dont have the answer as to why things arent coming together for Zimmer... RS damn well better know and have an answer for it before I would consider any extension for him.
maybe kubiak can bring draft day insight to the offensive side of the ball that has been lacking under Zimmer?
I strongly disagree with Maroon's assertion that worse Lines have win Super Bowls. Again, do not underestimate the difference between a Below Replacement Level Player and a League Average Player.
Sure, there were no-names and backups on the interiors of both Lines. But they are playing League Average. There wasn't one guy you could single out and go after in every down.
Elf is that guy you scheme to go after on every single down. Green Bay did it. The Bears did it. The 9ers did it. The Chiefs did it.
And Bradbury didn't help. In fact, he was probably wasn't even League Average himself. The difference between Average Guards and Centers with KC and San Francisco is huge compared to shit play from Elf and Bradbury.
And is there a single team in the NFL that gets so much production from its Starters and backups at DE and so little from the DTs? I can't think of one.
Rhodes ranked bottom 5 percent in all of football.
So that's 4 positions where even Average individual performance would greatly upgrade an entire Unit and Side of the Ball. Average Left Guard and Center play, combined with an experienced Playcaller will take this Offense from 8th to Top 5. And the good news here is that Rick, Gary and Rick have already proven they can take a Tier 3 journeyman and get him to play League Average. They just couldn't take an absolute liability and do much with it.
I'm less optimistic on the Defensive side as we just haven't seen any 3Ts get developed and at Minnesota's pick in the 1st there will only be raw guys needing developing available. And Zimmer is really struggling to find the right combination of schemes and player fit to take advantage of his All Pro Safeties.
And yet, still Top 5 in scoring Defense. Not in the same dominating fashion as years past, and showing cracks that point to a continued downturn. But it will likely still be Top 10. Just not good enough to carry a team.
If Rick and Gary get the right piece or two to fix the Line AND Gary still remembers how to make in-game adjustments, something 3 of the last 4 OCs couldn't do, this Offense will improve enough that the Defense won't need to carry them any more.
Great posts. IMO well written opinions with valid points.
DID YOU SEE THAT, NJ? LIFE TIME CONTRACT FOR RICK!
Quote: @"BarrNone55" said:
DID YOU SEE THAT, NJ? LIFE TIME CONTRACT FOR RICK!
PLEASE, dont say his name 2 more times....
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