Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
Well we are certainly more than a QB from being the chiefs since we couldn't beat them with their stud QB on the sidelines.
It's easy to look at the playoff win and say how close this team is, but that is forgetting the dismal losses that this team had as well. Honestly I think we have a decent team with a couple ready good pieces, bit we are certainly not a quick or cheap fix IMO. It's going to take some serious draft day luck and a few other things to get this team to where the niners are.
The Chiefs loss was Coaching. Plain and simple. Refused to do anything pre-snap to confuse a journeyman Backup QB who was out of football the previous season. Refuse to double Hill and Kelce. Refuse to give Elf help against Jones.
Bad Coaching. We saw it against Chicago and in both Green Bay games as well. And the 9ers. But we also saw good Coaching too. Mike's plan to shut down Zeke. The gameplan to shut down a red hot New Orleans Offense. Rebounding after the 3 quick scores in the 1st Packers game.
Where we didn't see much of was in-game adjustments by Barely Legal OC #2. Really, only Shumer has shown any ability to switch things up when the gameplan isn't working. Norv was all '7 Step Drop or Die'. Barely Legal OC #1 didn't appear to have a consistent plan ever.
Gary Kubiak is NOT D-Floppo or Stefanski. He's a proven commodity. That's turned no-name O-Linemen and RBs into winners. That's handled having 2 Stud Receivers. And gotten big production out of QBs that nobody else could.
Even if Mike continues to call the Defense I think you will see more adjustments as he is tasked with doing more with less instead of just trotting out his All Star Lineup and playing vanilla all day. And he's got new voices in his ear in the form of Dre and Baby Zimmer.
This Roster has holes. Just like the 9ers and Chiefs are facing. But let's not forget that the freaking backups nearly beat a Bears team that had found something late last season and played it's Starters the entire game. A .500 team needed a last second FG to beat Minnesota's backups.
Left Guards are not hard to find. Especially with great Coaches in Kubiak and Dennison helping the search. Zone Cornerbacks are apparently readily available at the nearest convenience store. It would be hard to get worse 3T play and yet the Defense was still Top 5.
I know you disagree and that's your prerogative. I just don't see this insurmountable hill and lack of talent you do. And I need to see what Cousins can do with the right Coaching in place. If he chokes under optimal conditions then it's time to think about moving up to get a QB. This Draft doesn't have it and I don't believe in forcing the issue unless someone falls in their lap.
Agree with pretty much everything. I keep coming back to this idea that I really believe in: there are about 1600 players in the NFL. About 200 of those players are elite. But there isn't much difference between, say, player 300 and player 800. It's why a team like the Vikings, playing 2nd and 3rd string players can almost beat a Bears team playing its starters.
In the divisional game, the biggest difference between the 49ers and the Vikings was that we had a debilitating weakness at left guard, and to a lesser degree, center. Both of those positions will likely be much improved in '20. I would also argue that not many teams would trade the Vikings three inside guys for the three inside guys the 49ers had playing in that game. The 2nd biggest difference is that Robert Saleh played a wide nine that eliminated our outside zone, rolls outs, play action and the screen game (the core of our offense), and Stefanski didn't have an answer to that, despite seeing the Packers do the exact same thing. Twice. Another year in the offense and he likely would have. With the weakness on the inside OL, drop backs were out. Film showed Diggs, in particular, wide open or coming open, on several plays. We just couldn't get the ball to him. The 3rd was our inability to stop the run. I haven't verified this myself, but I've heard that a lot of this was due to Eric Wilson having poor gap discipline. Would Gedeon have made a difference? Maybe.
This is a game of inches that expand into yards over time, and increments that expand into points. So without those problems the game is probably a lot closer. Even with them, It was 17 to 10 with 19 minutes left in the game. Problem is....we will now have other problems to solve beyond those issues: Who plays corner? Definitely a concern, but the Chiefs starting corners were a 3rd round pick on his 2nd team and a 4th round pick on his 3rd team. 49ers corners were crap outside of Sherman, who most thought was done two years ago. Vikings are going to look back at these years and wonder WTF happened. You're telling me that you had two 1st round corners, a 1st round safety and PFF's #1 ranked safety, two of the NFL's best edge rushers and your problem was...PASS defense? So, yeah, this falls on the coaches. And that will need to improve greatly, because now the Vikings will have to do it like most of the rest of NFL: with mid-tier guys executing sound game plans.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
Well we are certainly more than a QB from being the chiefs since we couldn't beat them with their stud QB on the sidelines.
It's easy to look at the playoff win and say how close this team is, but that is forgetting the dismal losses that this team had as well. Honestly I think we have a decent team with a couple ready good pieces, bit we are certainly not a quick or cheap fix IMO. It's going to take some serious draft day luck and a few other things to get this team to where the niners are.
The Chiefs loss was Coaching. Plain and simple. Refused to do anything pre-snap to confuse a journeyman Backup QB who was out of football the previous season. Refuse to double Hill and Kelce. Refuse to give Elf help against Jones.
Bad Coaching. We saw it against Chicago and in both Green Bay games as well. And the 9ers. But we also saw good Coaching too. Mike's plan to shut down Zeke. The gameplan to shut down a red hot New Orleans Offense. Rebounding after the 3 quick scores in the 1st Packers game.
Where we didn't see much of was in-game adjustments by Barely Legal OC #2. Really, only Shumer has shown any ability to switch things up when the gameplan isn't working. Norv was all '7 Step Drop or Die'. Barely Legal OC #1 didn't appear to have a consistent plan ever.
Gary Kubiak is NOT D-Floppo or Stefanski. He's a proven commodity. That's turned no-name O-Linemen and RBs into winners. That's handled having 2 Stud Receivers. And gotten big production out of QBs that nobody else could.
Even if Mike continues to call the Defense I think you will see more adjustments as he is tasked with doing more with less instead of just trotting out his All Star Lineup and playing vanilla all day. And he's got new voices in his ear in the form of Dre and Baby Zimmer.
This Roster has holes. Just like the 9ers and Chiefs are facing. But let's not forget that the freaking backups nearly beat a Bears team that had found something late last season and played it's Starters the entire game. A .500 team needed a last second FG to beat Minnesota's backups.
Left Guards are not hard to find. Especially with great Coaches in Kubiak and Dennison helping the search. Zone Cornerbacks are apparently readily available at the nearest convenience store. It would be hard to get worse 3T play and yet the Defense was still Top 5.
I know you disagree and that's your prerogative. I just don't see this insurmountable hill and lack of talent you do. And I need to see what Cousins can do with the right Coaching in place. If he chokes under optimal conditions then it's time to think about moving up to get a QB. This Draft doesn't have it and I don't believe in forcing the issue unless someone falls in their lap.
Agree with pretty much everything. I keep coming back to this idea that I really believe in: there are about 1600 players in the NFL. About 200 of those players are elite. But there isn't much difference between, say, player 300 and player 800. It's why a team like the Vikings, playing 2nd and 3rd string players can almost beat a Bears team playing its starters.
In the divisional game, the biggest difference between the 49ers and the Vikings was that we had a debilitating weakness at left guard, and to a lesser degree, center. Both of those positions will likely be much improved in '20. I would also argue that not many teams would trade the Vikings three inside guys for the three inside guys the 49ers had playing in that game. The 2nd biggest difference is that Robert Saleh played a wide nine that eliminated our outside zone, rolls outs, play action and the screen game (the core of our offense), and Stefanski didn't have an answer to that, despite seeing the Packers do the exact same thing. Twice. Another year in the offense and he likely would have. With the weakness on the inside OL, drop backs were out. Film showed Diggs, in particular, wide open or coming open, on several plays. We just couldn't get the ball to him. The 3rd was our inability to stop the run. I haven't verified this myself, but I've heard that a lot of this was due to Eric Wilson having poor gap discipline. Would Gedeon have made a difference? Maybe.
This is a game of inches that expand into yards over time, and increments that expand into points. So without those problems the game is probably a lot closer. Even with them, It was 17 to 10 with 19 minutes left in the game. Problem is....we will now have other problems to solve beyond those issues: Who plays corner? Definitely a concern, but the Chiefs starting corners were a 3rd round pick on his 2nd team and a 4th round pick on his 3rd team. 49ers corners were crap outside of Sherman, who most thought was done two years ago. Vikings are going to look back at these years and wonder WTF happened. You're telling me that you had two 1st round corners, a 1st round safety and PFF's #1 ranked safety, two of the NFL's best edge rushers and your problem was...PASS defense? So, yeah, this falls on the coaches. And that will need to improve greatly, because now the Vikings will have to do it like most of the rest of NFL: with mid-tier guys executing sound game plans.
Inisightful... i will still maintain that a lot of our inability to stop the run on D is on Joseph, he is supposed to be the guy that eats double teams at the LOS and he was consistently blown off the ball by at least a couple yards if not more when opposing Ds made a point of running between the tackles. He just isnt as strong at the point of attack any longer. I am really hoping to hear that the was dealing with an injury we didnt know about or something like that so I could pray for a comeback, but I think he was showing last year that he was slipping so I doubt its injury related as much as it is that he got paid and isnt as hungry.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
Well we are certainly more than a QB from being the chiefs since we couldn't beat them with their stud QB on the sidelines.
It's easy to look at the playoff win and say how close this team is, but that is forgetting the dismal losses that this team had as well. Honestly I think we have a decent team with a couple ready good pieces, bit we are certainly not a quick or cheap fix IMO. It's going to take some serious draft day luck and a few other things to get this team to where the niners are.
The Chiefs loss was Coaching. Plain and simple. Refused to do anything pre-snap to confuse a journeyman Backup QB who was out of football the previous season. Refuse to double Hill and Kelce. Refuse to give Elf help against Jones.
Bad Coaching. We saw it against Chicago and in both Green Bay games as well. And the 9ers. But we also saw good Coaching too. Mike's plan to shut down Zeke. The gameplan to shut down a red hot New Orleans Offense. Rebounding after the 3 quick scores in the 1st Packers game.
Where we didn't see much of was in-game adjustments by Barely Legal OC #2. Really, only Shumer has shown any ability to switch things up when the gameplan isn't working. Norv was all '7 Step Drop or Die'. Barely Legal OC #1 didn't appear to have a consistent plan ever.
Gary Kubiak is NOT D-Floppo or Stefanski. He's a proven commodity. That's turned no-name O-Linemen and RBs into winners. That's handled having 2 Stud Receivers. And gotten big production out of QBs that nobody else could.
Even if Mike continues to call the Defense I think you will see more adjustments as he is tasked with doing more with less instead of just trotting out his All Star Lineup and playing vanilla all day. And he's got new voices in his ear in the form of Dre and Baby Zimmer.
This Roster has holes. Just like the 9ers and Chiefs are facing. But let's not forget that the freaking backups nearly beat a Bears team that had found something late last season and played it's Starters the entire game. A .500 team needed a last second FG to beat Minnesota's backups.
Left Guards are not hard to find. Especially with great Coaches in Kubiak and Dennison helping the search. Zone Cornerbacks are apparently readily available at the nearest convenience store. It would be hard to get worse 3T play and yet the Defense was still Top 5.
I know you disagree and that's your prerogative. I just don't see this insurmountable hill and lack of talent you do. And I need to see what Cousins can do with the right Coaching in place. If he chokes under optimal conditions then it's time to think about moving up to get a QB. This Draft doesn't have it and I don't believe in forcing the issue unless someone falls in their lap.
Agree with pretty much everything. I keep coming back to this idea that I really believe in: there are about 1600 players in the NFL. About 200 of those players are elite. But there isn't much difference between, say, player 300 and player 800. It's why a team like the Vikings, playing 2nd and 3rd string players can almost beat a Bears team playing its starters.
In the divisional game, the biggest difference between the 49ers and the Vikings was that we had a debilitating weakness at left guard, and to a lesser degree, center. Both of those positions will likely be much improved in '20. I would also argue that not many teams would trade the Vikings three inside guys for the three inside guys the 49ers had playing in that game. The 2nd biggest difference is that Robert Saleh played a wide nine that eliminated our outside zone, rolls outs, play action and the screen game (the core of our offense), and Stefanski didn't have an answer to that, despite seeing the Packers do the exact same thing. Twice. Another year in the offense and he likely would have. With the weakness on the inside OL, drop backs were out. Film showed Diggs, in particular, wide open or coming open, on several plays. We just couldn't get the ball to him. The 3rd was our inability to stop the run. I haven't verified this myself, but I've heard that a lot of this was due to Eric Wilson having poor gap discipline. Would Gedeon have made a difference? Maybe.
This is a game of inches that expand into yards over time, and increments that expand into points. So without those problems the game is probably a lot closer. Even with them, It was 17 to 10 with 19 minutes left in the game. Problem is....we will now have other problems to solve beyond those issues: Who plays corner? Definitely a concern, but the Chiefs starting corners were a 3rd round pick on his 2nd team and a 4th round pick on his 3rd team. 49ers corners were crap outside of Sherman, who most thought was done two years ago. Vikings are going to look back at these years and wonder WTF happened. You're telling me that you had two 1st round corners, a 1st round safety and PFF's #1 ranked safety, two of the NFL's best edge rushers and your problem was...PASS defense? So, yeah, this falls on the coaches. And that will need to improve greatly, because now the Vikings will have to do it like most of the rest of NFL: with mid-tier guys executing sound game plans.
Inisightful... i will still maintain that a lot of our inability to stop the run on D is on Joseph, he is supposed to be the guy that eats double teams at the LOS and he was consistently blown off the ball by at least a couple yards if not more when opposing Ds made a point of running between the tackles. He just isnt as strong at the point of attack any longer. I am really hoping to hear that the was dealing with an injury we didnt know about or something like that so I could pray for a comeback, but I think he was showing last year that he was slipping so I doubt its injury related as much as it is that he got paid and isnt as hungry.
I have no idea what Joseph's problem was. It might've been injury related, it might not. But he won't be back, at least not at the same salary.
I think its a huge disservice to Andy Reid to think The KC Model solely lies around Mahomes. IMO Mahomes will go down as the greatest arm to ever play the position, but it sure helps having a HC with an offensive mind like Andy Reid. I agree with Barr that we are way closer to the Niners than the Chiefs and I can guarantee that if the Ravens would have won the super bowl, we'd be having the same discussion about their model as well.
At the end of the day you do need that great/iconic player like Mahomes and Lamar, but the Vikes dont have that and may not for quite some time. Dont forget, pretty bad & overrated QB's have won the super bowl before too (Dilfer, Aikman, Rypien) so QB may not be where we need to improve the most.
Quote: @Hawkvike25 said:
I think its a huge disservice to Andy Reid to think The KC Model solely lies around Mahomes. IMO Mahomes will go down as the greatest arm to ever play the position, but it sure helps having a HC with an offensive mind like Andy Reid. I agree with Barr that we are way closer to the Niners than the Chiefs and I can guarantee that if the Ravens would have won the super bowl, we'd be having the same discussion about their model as well.
At the end of the day you do need that great/iconic player like Mahomes and Lamar, but the Vikes dont have that and may not for quite some time. Dont forget, pretty bad & overrated QB's have won the super bowl before too (Dilfer, Aikman, Rypien) so QB may not be where we need to improve the most.
the key though is that you have to have some element that is amazing, if you dont have an amazing QB, then you have to have other pieces that are IE: Ravens Defense for Dilfer, Cowboys OL was one of the best ever, and WR/TE/RB were pretty stout as well. We cant over pay for only above average QB play (not franchise type performance) and still have enough money in the FA era to make that type of run unless we scrap our high priced vets and get lucky in replacing them with cheaper but more talented rookies and over looked free agents which seems to be a long shot IMO.
Quote: @Hawkvike25 said:
I think its a huge disservice to Andy Reid to think The KC Model solely lies around Mahomes. IMO Mahomes will go down as the greatest arm to ever play the position, but it sure helps having a HC with an offensive mind like Andy Reid. I agree with Barr that we are way closer to the Niners than the Chiefs and I can guarantee that if the Ravens would have won the super bowl, we'd be having the same discussion about their model as well.
At the end of the day you do need that great/iconic player like Mahomes and Lamar, but the Vikes dont have that and may not for quite some time. Dont forget, pretty bad & overrated QB's have won the super bowl before too (Dilfer, Aikman, Rypien) so QB may not be where we need to improve the most.
Well, yes, but the 49ers were up 20 to 10 with 11 minutes to go in the game and they had the ball after picking off Mahomes. So up until that point, the model was the 49ers. But because Mahomes worked some magic, the Chiefs are now the model. See, that's the kind of silliness I'm talking about. Those were two very evenly matched teams, both of whom were remarkably healthy, too. You play that game 10 times, I doubt one team wins it more than 6. There's no one model here. Both are models. And we're far closer to the 49ers than the Chiefs, which is actually a good thing. It's more sustainable than the Chiefs.
The Chiefs are the model if you have a franchise qb, and its probably sustainable (more playoff appearances than not) if the QB stays healthy.
Vikings haven't had one since Favre, so yah another model will have to work. Agreed they are more a mirror image of 49'ers than Packers, Ravens, Chiefs or Texans.
|
