Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
Our HC and GM aren't under contract beyond this year. They will be drafting for players who can help them win in 2020. Cousins was their all in move. All 3 are tied together. At minimum they need a Super Bowl appearance or they are all gone.
This is why I've been confused as to how the Vikings are handling Zimmer & Spielman's contracts. The best course of action would be for the Wilfs to extend both and help them make an objective decision on Kirk. They're all tied together but if the Wilfs truly believe in the current staff they should allow them a shot to add another QB, as bitter as many fans would be about that. But you can't help but think they'll want to extend Kirk for the near-term benefits of added cap space in 2020 if pressing to keep their jobs. The reality is a new FO likely will want a their own QB (which could be Kirk) so you've effectively tied them to Cousins as well.
maybe they arent all in on Zim and Rick? perhaps this is there way of lighting a fire under their asses to see if they can find a way out of this rut they seem to be stuck in? kirks team may have been approached and maybe the team doesnt like the responses they are getting? I know its only 2 days after the superbowl, but I honestly thought that we would have some sort of offseason news or rumors by now about what they intend to do with the team going forward.
Its obvious they're not considering they only extended (picked up option) Zimmer for a single season after last season to align his contract with Spielman. I guess my bigger point is that although its nice all three contracts are aligned it doesn't really make that much sense. It made/makes more sense to let a fresh set of eyes analyze a situation to identify how to proceed forward. So if you aren't 100% committed at this point you're better off moving on now vs. later. Alternatively if they are on-board with the current staff they should extend them for multiple season vs. a one-year band aid.
Letting all 4 of these key guys have 'lame duck' seasons next year with zero commitment beyond that is borderline unprecedented. I'd argue it's unprecedented for a reason: Because it's dumb.
8 years - Rick top GM experience6 years - Zimmer HC experience5 years - Kirk full-time starter QB experience3 years - Dalvin full-time starter RB experience (been hurt a lot though)
This is MORE than enough time for the Wilfs (and fans) to have formed educated opinions about all four guys. Extend who you want, and move on from who you want. Be decisive!
To essentially say, "ehhh, we need one more year to decide..." is a waste of precious time, and is a surprising move to see from such savvy and cutthroat(?) businessmen.
Quote: @pattersaur said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
Our HC and GM aren't under contract beyond this year. They will be drafting for players who can help them win in 2020. Cousins was their all in move. All 3 are tied together. At minimum they need a Super Bowl appearance or they are all gone.
This is why I've been confused as to how the Vikings are handling Zimmer & Spielman's contracts. The best course of action would be for the Wilfs to extend both and help them make an objective decision on Kirk. They're all tied together but if the Wilfs truly believe in the current staff they should allow them a shot to add another QB, as bitter as many fans would be about that. But you can't help but think they'll want to extend Kirk for the near-term benefits of added cap space in 2020 if pressing to keep their jobs. The reality is a new FO likely will want a their own QB (which could be Kirk) so you've effectively tied them to Cousins as well.
maybe they arent all in on Zim and Rick? perhaps this is there way of lighting a fire under their asses to see if they can find a way out of this rut they seem to be stuck in? kirks team may have been approached and maybe the team doesnt like the responses they are getting? I know its only 2 days after the superbowl, but I honestly thought that we would have some sort of offseason news or rumors by now about what they intend to do with the team going forward.
Its obvious they're not considering they only extended (picked up option) Zimmer for a single season after last season to align his contract with Spielman. I guess my bigger point is that although its nice all three contracts are aligned it doesn't really make that much sense. It made/makes more sense to let a fresh set of eyes analyze a situation to identify how to proceed forward. So if you aren't 100% committed at this point you're better off moving on now vs. later. Alternatively if they are on-board with the current staff they should extend them for multiple season vs. a one-year band aid.
Letting all 4 of these key guys have 'lame duck' seasons next year with zero commitment beyond that is borderline unprecedented. I'd argue it's unprecedented for a reason: Because it's dumb.
8 years - Rick top GM experience6 years - Zimmer HC experience5 years - Kirk full-time starter QB experience3 years - Dalvin full-time starter RB experience (been hurt a lot though)
This is MORE than enough time for the Wilfs (and fans) to have formed educated opinions about all four guys. Extend who you want, and move on from who you want. Be decisive!
To essentially say, "ehhh, we need one more year to decide..." is a waste of precious time, and is a surprising move to see from such savvy and cutthroat(?) businessmen.
they have their confidants and mentors in this venture and I am betting they are getting mixed messages and are not sure what to do and are hoping that by checking that their hand will look better once the river hits the table.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ pattersaur said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
Our HC and GM aren't under contract beyond this year. They will be drafting for players who can help them win in 2020. Cousins was their all in move. All 3 are tied together. At minimum they need a Super Bowl appearance or they are all gone.
This is why I've been confused as to how the Vikings are handling Zimmer & Spielman's contracts. The best course of action would be for the Wilfs to extend both and help them make an objective decision on Kirk. They're all tied together but if the Wilfs truly believe in the current staff they should allow them a shot to add another QB, as bitter as many fans would be about that. But you can't help but think they'll want to extend Kirk for the near-term benefits of added cap space in 2020 if pressing to keep their jobs. The reality is a new FO likely will want a their own QB (which could be Kirk) so you've effectively tied them to Cousins as well.
maybe they arent all in on Zim and Rick? perhaps this is there way of lighting a fire under their asses to see if they can find a way out of this rut they seem to be stuck in? kirks team may have been approached and maybe the team doesnt like the responses they are getting? I know its only 2 days after the superbowl, but I honestly thought that we would have some sort of offseason news or rumors by now about what they intend to do with the team going forward.
Its obvious they're not considering they only extended (picked up option) Zimmer for a single season after last season to align his contract with Spielman. I guess my bigger point is that although its nice all three contracts are aligned it doesn't really make that much sense. It made/makes more sense to let a fresh set of eyes analyze a situation to identify how to proceed forward. So if you aren't 100% committed at this point you're better off moving on now vs. later. Alternatively if they are on-board with the current staff they should extend them for multiple season vs. a one-year band aid.
Letting all 4 of these key guys have 'lame duck' seasons next year with zero commitment beyond that is borderline unprecedented. I'd argue it's unprecedented for a reason: Because it's dumb.
8 years - Rick top GM experience6 years - Zimmer HC experience5 years - Kirk full-time starter QB experience3 years - Dalvin full-time starter RB experience (been hurt a lot though)
This is MORE than enough time for the Wilfs (and fans) to have formed educated opinions about all four guys. Extend who you want, and move on from who you want. Be decisive!
To essentially say, "ehhh, we need one more year to decide..." is a waste of precious time, and is a surprising move to see from such savvy and cutthroat(?) businessmen.
they have their confidants and mentors in this venture and I am betting they are getting mixed messages and are not sure what to do and are hoping that by checking that their hand will look better once the river hits the table.
Ha. Curious but accurate analogy considering that type of safe poker play typically lands the player in the middle of the pack. Sounds familiar...
With all the data they have to go on, being "not sure" at this point is weak. Plus nobody likes Always Checks Guy! :p
Quote: @pattersaur said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
Our HC and GM aren't under contract beyond this year. They will be drafting for players who can help them win in 2020. Cousins was their all in move. All 3 are tied together. At minimum they need a Super Bowl appearance or they are all gone.
This is why I've been confused as to how the Vikings are handling Zimmer & Spielman's contracts. The best course of action would be for the Wilfs to extend both and help them make an objective decision on Kirk. They're all tied together but if the Wilfs truly believe in the current staff they should allow them a shot to add another QB, as bitter as many fans would be about that. But you can't help but think they'll want to extend Kirk for the near-term benefits of added cap space in 2020 if pressing to keep their jobs. The reality is a new FO likely will want a their own QB (which could be Kirk) so you've effectively tied them to Cousins as well.
maybe they arent all in on Zim and Rick? perhaps this is there way of lighting a fire under their asses to see if they can find a way out of this rut they seem to be stuck in? kirks team may have been approached and maybe the team doesnt like the responses they are getting? I know its only 2 days after the superbowl, but I honestly thought that we would have some sort of offseason news or rumors by now about what they intend to do with the team going forward.
Its obvious they're not considering they only extended (picked up option) Zimmer for a single season after last season to align his contract with Spielman. I guess my bigger point is that although its nice all three contracts are aligned it doesn't really make that much sense. It made/makes more sense to let a fresh set of eyes analyze a situation to identify how to proceed forward. So if you aren't 100% committed at this point you're better off moving on now vs. later. Alternatively if they are on-board with the current staff they should extend them for multiple season vs. a one-year band aid.
Letting all 4 of these key guys have 'lame duck' seasons next year with zero commitment beyond that is borderline unprecedented. I'd argue it's unprecedented for a reason: Because it's dumb.
8 years - Rick top GM experience6 years - Zimmer HC experience5 years - Kirk full-time starter QB experience3 years - Dalvin full-time starter RB experience (been hurt a lot though)
This is MORE than enough time for the Wilfs (and fans) to have formed educated opinions about all four guys. Extend who you want, and move on from who you want. Be decisive!
To essentially say, "ehhh, we need one more year to decide..." is a waste of precious time, and is a surprising move to see from such savvy and cutthroat(?) businessmen.
Pattersaur, i agree on both RS and MZ that you should know whether or not these are your guys by now. With Kirk and Dalvin it's much more than that because it's also a game of "Ok, who is going to be their replacement?" I'm much more open to moving on from Dalvin given how good Mattison looked this year. With Kirk, he had a very good year and won a road playoff game vs arguable the NFC Favorite. If we move on from Kirk are we reaching for a QB again and missing bad like with Ponder? IMO it's not as easy to just say yep we are done with Kirk, mainly because we are a playoff team, we weren't 5-11 and could embrace the rebuild mode status.
Quote: @pattersaur said:
To essentially say, "ehhh, we need one more year to decide..." is a waste of precious time, and is a surprising move to see from such savvy and cutthroat(?) businessmen.
Maybe they're not as savvy as you think. They inherited a fortune and are conservative (or vindictive if you got into biz with them in NJ) stewards of the dough. Not guys who take risks or build a business from the ground up. So the approach is the same - accumulate a lot of talent/stuff and assume that = success. In football that might work sometimes but usually winning the SB involves some risky moves, like jumping up and paying big to grab Mahomes. Stealing Belichik from the Jets (and recognizing there was something there when the track record from Cleveland said otherwise). Taking a chance on an unknown or unproven coach. Cutting loose from declining vets and taking chances with young talent, etc.
The idea that you keep the same guys around for years and keep paying big $ for the familiar and somehow it's all incremental progress to a SB is a very conservative concept. And in sports it rarely works that way because of how short careers are and how quickly athletes can age/decline. A smart Viking organization would have recognized some of those situations and cut loose from certain players. Or in some cases even managed to get value back in trade before there was no value left. It would stop obsessing with loyalty to guys who collect millions regardless of warm fuzzies from ownership and be the "cutthroat" business you are imagining.
The same crew will likely give you the same results next year. The part I don't get is, say a miracle happens (and I do mean miracle) and they win the SB. Now you've got coach, g.m. and qb all free agents with a freshly minted SB resume under their belts and they hit the market with suitors with cash ready to pay big. Where does that leave the Vikings?
If nothing else you should extend RS and MZ just in case. Otherwise you are saying you don't believe they can get it done which begs the question why not cut them loose now? Cousins extension-not so much because I don't think his m.o. changes at this point - he will still play tight most of the time on the big stage and I think he's a known commodity at this point. Only the insular, conservative and imho inept-at-football Viking ownership would be likely to reward him with a huge extension deal. If he hits f.a. after another 10-6 one and done type season he'd have to find a g.m. who is totally fooled by stats and doesn't pay attention to the rest of his makeup to land another top $ deal. But then again teams do dumb things all the time.
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ pattersaur said:
To essentially say, "ehhh, we need one more year to decide..." is a waste of precious time, and is a surprising move to see from such savvy and cutthroat(?) businessmen.
Maybe they're not as savvy as you think. They inherited a fortune and are conservative (or vindictive if you got into biz with them in NJ) stewards of the dough. Not guys who take risks or build a business from the ground up. So the approach is the same - accumulate a lot of talent/stuff and assume that = success. In football that might work sometimes but usually winning the SB involves some risky moves, like jumping up and paying big to grab Mahomes. Stealing Belichik from the Jets (and recognizing there was something there when the track record from Cleveland said otherwise). Taking a chance on an unknown or unproven coach. Cutting loose from declining vets and taking chances with young talent, etc.
The idea that you keep the same guys around for years and keep paying big $ for the familiar and somehow it's all incremental progress to a SB is a very conservative concept. And in sports it rarely works that way because of how short careers are and how quickly athletes can age/decline. A smart Viking organization would have recognized some of those situations and cut loose from certain players. Or in some cases even managed to get value back in trade before there was no value left. It would stop obsessing with loyalty to guys who collect millions regardless of warm fuzzies from ownership and be the "cutthroat" business you are imagining.
The same crew will likely give you the same results next year. The part I don't get is, say a miracle happens (and I do mean miracle) and they win the SB. Now you've got coach, g.m. and qb all free agents with a freshly minted SB resume under their belts and they hit the market with suitors with cash ready to pay big. Where does that leave the Vikings?
If nothing else you should extend RS and MZ just in case. Otherwise you are saying you don't believe they can get it done which begs the question why not cut them loose now? Cousins extension-not so much because I don't think his m.o. changes at this point - he will still play tight most of the time on the big stage and I think he's a known commodity at this point. Only the insular, conservative and imho inept-at-football Viking ownership would be likely to reward him with a huge extension deal. If he hits f.a. after another 10-6 one and done type season he'd have to find a g.m. who is totally fooled by stats and doesn't pay attention to the rest of his makeup to land another top $ deal. But then again teams do dumb things all the time.
Well said and I agree with most of it. On the other hand, extending RS and MZ now may send a message of satisfaction with the status quo. Extend and you get more of the same, so to speak.
Not extending until next mid season would seem to be more motivational. Make them prove the Cousins gamble was worth the money, for example.
But most likely they will extend the triangle of RS, MZ, and KC during the off season to help with cap relief. I'm not sure that is the best move, but they are committed financially to give the Cousins gamble at least next year.
As far as business goes, the NFL is a very prosperous business, win or lose. I know the Wilf's want to win, but not winning won't hurt their pocketbook much.
Quote: @JR44 said:
Cousins has been unable to beat teams with winning records throughout his career and I do not see anything from him that says that is going to change. We can extend him and continue to follow the painful trend of lighting it up against Detroit and losing to every good team or we can make a move.
The Chiefs were in the exact same situation with Alex Smith a few years ago, made a gutsy move to trade up and select Mahomes instead of staying with Smith. I think that worked out pretty well for them. I don't know if the answer is in the draft, trade or FA, but I am pretty sure it is not in house.
Outside of Brady and Wilson name a QB with a winning record against winning teams.
I dont think Mahomes has one but Roethlisberger probably does, right?
Quote: @mjollnir_k said:
@ JR44 said:
Cousins has been unable to beat teams with winning records throughout his career and I do not see anything from him that says that is going to change. We can extend him and continue to follow the painful trend of lighting it up against Detroit and losing to every good team or we can make a move.
The Chiefs were in the exact same situation with Alex Smith a few years ago, made a gutsy move to trade up and select Mahomes instead of staying with Smith. I think that worked out pretty well for them. I don't know if the answer is in the draft, trade or FA, but I am pretty sure it is not in house.
Outside of Brady and Wilson name a QB with a winning record against winning teams.
has to be the most confusing and meaningless stat out there, does is me they had a winning record when they played them or at the end of the season? also what does it mean if a QB has a good game but the defense shits the bed, or if a QB loses to a team with a winning record, but was severely limited that particular week and wasnt favored?
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
has to be the most confusing and meaningless stat out there, does is me they had a winning record when they played them or at the end of the season? also what does it mean if a QB has a good game but the defense shits the bed, or if a QB loses to a team with a winning record, but was severely limited that particular week and wasnt favored?
Yeah, how a QB plays in the clutch is meaningless :o
|
