Quote: @pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Because most of Christ's message rings true to me, even 2000 years later. That God, who probably doesn't look like us at all, and might just be a universal force of love, logic, beauty, and....maybe, consequence?... would choose to introduce Himself to the world as a vulnerable baby born in straw poverty rings true to me. The notion of grace, love, the golden rule, our treatment of the poor, sermon on the mount, the beatitudes, etc., all ring true to me. And the world is very likely a better place because of them. But 6 literal days that discount what we know about evolution, Peter and Paul's endorsement of slavery, fires of hell, etc.? Nope.
I actually think if Christians focused more on Christ's message and less on fires-of-hell literalism, Christianity would stop shrinking at an alarming rate, especially in places like Europe, for example.
Again, I thank you for your willingness to continue this dialogue. As to your last statement, if the "fires of hell" wasn't "literal"... then why did Jesus die on the Cross? Orthodox Christianity says that it was to save us from the consequences of sin (of which "Hell" is the primary one- as Jesus, Himself- said on many occasions).
As to the rest of your comment: if our focus is only on living a good life, that still leaves the other question: what makes Christianity different from, say, Confucianism (which also has alot of good, moral messages)?
I think hell is a metaphor for a miserable place.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Because most of Christ's message rings true to me, even 2000 years later. That God, who probably doesn't look like us at all, and might just be a universal force of love, logic, beauty, and....maybe, consequence?... would choose to introduce Himself to the world as a vulnerable baby born in straw poverty rings true to me. The notion of grace, love, the golden rule, our treatment of the poor, sermon on the mount, the beatitudes, etc., all ring true to me. And the world is very likely a better place because of them. But 6 literal days that discount what we know about evolution, Peter and Paul's endorsement of slavery, fires of hell, etc.? Nope.
I actually think if Christians focused more on Christ's message and less on fires-of-hell literalism, Christianity would stop shrinking at an alarming rate, especially in places like Europe, for example.
Again, I thank you for your willingness to continue this dialogue. As to your last statement, if the "fires of hell" wasn't "literal"... then why did Jesus die on the Cross? Orthodox Christianity says that it was to save us from the consequences of sin (of which "Hell" is the primary one- as Jesus, Himself- said on many occasions).
As to the rest of your comment: if our focus is only on living a good life, that still leaves the other question: what makes Christianity different from, say, Confucianism (which also has alot of good, moral messages)?
I think hell is a metaphor for a miserable place.
I think the concept is interesting:
if you weren't raised Christian and/or do not accept Jesus as your savior...you're deserted and/or punished for having been raised on "the wrong book" or the lack thereof?
Frankly, I'm more impressed by people that choose to be good, caring, charitable humans WITHOUT a theoretical afterlife gun pointed at their heads.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
I think hell is a metaphor for a miserable place.
Well, I think it is a miserable place, too. I don't know what its metaphysical properties will be... but I think it will be a dark, lonely place: somewhere (the only place) were God "isn't". And- to me- that's what will make it such a miserable place. So, we *seem* to agree that it exists. So, the follow up question is: who will be there? Jesus said that there will be many people who are there. What do you think?
Quote: @Zanary said:
I think the concept is interesting:
if you weren't raised Christian and/or do not accept Jesus as your savior...you're deserted and/or punished for having been raised on "the wrong book" or the lack thereof?
Frankly, I'm more impressed by people that choose to be good, caring, charitable humans WITHOUT a theoretical afterlife gun pointed at their heads.
I think that the MAJOR aspect of Christianity that you're missing in your analysis... is the reality of "Original Sin", which states that every human being comes into existence "infected" with the consequences of sin. It's like inheriting a disease... and then saying that it's not fair that some people- who don't have access to proper medical care... or those who don't believe in "doctors"- will die from it. Well, fair or not... that's the reality of the disease: if it isn't cured, it will kill that person. But God doesn't want anyone to "die" from sin, which is why He sent His Son to atone (pay for) our sins and enable us to be "healed" (forgiven) of them. He hasn't deserted us at all; on the contrary: He has done everything to bring us "healing" and enable us to be restored to the perfect creations He intended us to be (which- also- enables us to inherit the eternal life He always wanted us to have, too). The problem isn't with what God has done (or not done); it is with His followers, who have refused to make this "medicine" available to everyone. We were told to "Go and make disciples of all nations...", yet most of us don't seem to care about our neighbors- at least not enough to worry about their eternal welfare. Penn (from Penn and Teller) made a wonderful observation about Christians when he said that- if they really believed what they say they believe- it would be expected (and loving) of them to try to tell others about Jesus. But- as an atheist- he doesn't see that happen very often. And he's right.
As for your second comment, I have to- again- point to Christianity (if it is rightly preached and practiced) and say that NONE of us (as Christians) attempt to be- or do- good... because we're worried about Hell. The Bible makes it VERY clear (in both Testaments) that there is no one who does good... no one who is able to do enough good works to make ourselves righteous. When the Galatians believed a false teaching that focused on doing certain things (good works) in order to be saved, the Apostle Paul chastised them by saying that they were following a gospel- which was was no gospel at all. The central teaching of Christian is the Doctrine of Justification, which says that we are made right with God- not by our own works, but by our Lord Jesus Christ: whose perfect life, sacrificial death and triumphant resurrection accomplished our redemption. And His free gift to us (forgiveness and eternal life) are not able to be earned; they can only be received (as a gift) by believing God's Word of promise (i.e. "believing in Jesus"). There are millions of Christians who "do good"... but they are NOT doing it to earn brownie points with God. They do it as a grateful response to God, for all that He has ALREADY done for us. It is our way of thanking Him for our earthly blessings... but, much more, for our spiritual blessings.
Every other religion in the world demands good works from their adherents. Only one says that you can never do enough... and that you don't have to, because it's already been done for you. Now all you have to do is receive that promise. And, if you believe it... "good works" will follow (naturally... not "by force").
The major tenet of Christianity or those that believe that Jesus is the son of God is the death and resurrection of Jesus. This is the foundation. This is what inspired/inspires those toward Christianity. Its a big leap of faith-based theory.
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
I think hell is a metaphor for a miserable place.
Well, I think it is a miserable place, too. I don't know what its metaphysical properties will be... but I think it will be a dark, lonely place: somewhere (the only place) were God "isn't". And- to me- that's what will make it such a miserable place. So, we *seem* to agree that it exists. So, the follow up question is: who will be there? Jesus said that there will be many people who are there. What do you think?
I don't think it's a physical place, but perhaps more a state of mind. Loneliness, despair, torment--consequence for leading an immoral life without remorse, contrition. And, yes, I agree, there will be many people there.
As I said before, God could just be a nebulous force of love and logic in the universe. And maybe this force sent a reminder to earth in human form to help set us on the right course. But, no, I no longer believe John 14, the "no man cometh" part. As I said before, I find it hard to accept that virtuous Jews or atheists, for example, people who spend their lives devoted to caring for their fellow humans, are going to spend eternity burning in endless fires with no hope of death. Maybe when Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father but by me," he was more talking about His message--a message of love, grace, penitence, that many people got whether they wanted it or not.
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ Zanary said:
I think the concept is interesting:
if you weren't raised Christian and/or do not accept Jesus as your savior...you're deserted and/or punished for having been raised on "the wrong book" or the lack thereof?
Frankly, I'm more impressed by people that choose to be good, caring, charitable humans WITHOUT a theoretical afterlife gun pointed at their heads.
I think that the MAJOR aspect of Christianity that you're missing in your analysis... is the reality of "Original Sin", which states that every human being comes into existence "infected" with the consequences of sin. It's like inheriting a disease... and then saying that it's not fair that some people- who don't have access to proper medical care... or those who don't believe in "doctors"- will die from it. Well, fair or not... that's the reality of the disease: if it isn't cured, it will kill that person. But God doesn't want anyone to "die" from sin, which is why He sent His Son to atone (pay for) our sins and enable us to be "healed" (forgiven) of them. He hasn't deserted us at all; on the contrary: He has done everything to bring us "healing" and enable us to be restored to the perfect creations He intended us to be (which- also- enables us to inherit the eternal life He always wanted us to have, too). The problem isn't with what God has done (or not done); it is with His followers, who have refused to make this "medicine" available to everyone. We were told to "Go and make disciples of all nations...", yet most of us don't seem to care about our neighbors- at least not enough to worry about their eternal welfare. Penn (from Penn and Teller) made a wonderful observation about Christians when he said that- if they really believed what they say they believe- it would be expected (and loving) of them to try to tell others about Jesus. But- as an atheist- he doesn't see that happen very often. And he's right.
As for your second comment, I have to- again- point to Christianity (if it is rightly preached and practiced) and say that NONE of us (as Christians) attempt to be- or do- good... because we're worried about Hell. The Bible makes it VERY clear (in both Testaments) that there is no one who does good... no one who is able to do enough good works to make ourselves righteous. When the Galatians believed a false teaching that focused on doing certain things (good works) in order to be saved, the Apostle Paul chastised them by saying that they were following a gospel- which was was no gospel at all. The central teaching of Christian is the Doctrine of Justification, which says that we are made right with God- not by our own works, but by our Lord Jesus Christ: whose perfect life, sacrificial death and triumphant resurrection accomplished our redemption. And His free gift to us (forgiveness and eternal life) are not able to be earned; they can only be received (as a gift) by believing God's Word of promise (i.e. "believing in Jesus"). There are millions of Christians who "do good"... but they are NOT doing it to earn brownie points with God. They do it as a grateful response to God, for all that He has ALREADY done for us. It is our way of thanking Him for our earthly blessings... but, much more, for our spiritual blessings.
Every other religion in the world demands good works from their adherents. Only one says that you can never do enough... and that you don't have to, because it's already been done for you. Now all you have to do is receive that promise. And, if you believe it... "good works" will follow (naturally... not "by force").
So...short version:
Christianity is damning much of the world to hell for limiting/distorting its message, and apparently the Holy Trinity won't intervene.
Really, deeply glad that I left that s**tshow.
Quote: @Zanary said:
So...short version:
Christianity is damning much of the world to hell for limiting/distorting its message, and apparently the Holy Trinity won't intervene.
Really, deeply glad that I left that s**tshow.
Not where you got that "version". But here's a short one for you: all humanity sucks. But the Creator, rather than allowing them to be damned eternally for it DID intervene. But some folks won't receive His help, because either they don't know about it... or they don't care.
Or, to put it another way: everybody is sick... and the Doctor came to deliver a cure. But some people don't know the Doctor... and others prefer to remain sick.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
The major tenet of Christianity or those that believe that Jesus is the son of God is the death and resurrection of Jesus. This is the foundation. This is what inspired/inspires those toward Christianity. Its a big leap of faith-based theory.
Nothing gets by you, Sticky. 
Quote: @Zanary said:
Frankly, I'm more impressed by people that choose to be good, caring, charitable humans WITHOUT a theoretical afterlife gun pointed at their heads.
Hmmm....
I'm most impressed by people that choose to be good, caring, charitable humans WITHOUT ever "announcing" such. Christian or atheist.
Because when they announce their charity, it ceases to be charity.
Quote: @Zanary said:
Really, deeply glad that I left that s**tshow.
Feel sad for you, as I think you're a thoughtful guy.
I've had nothing but phenomenal experiences in organized religion (churches).
Ya need to move to the south.
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