Let the excuses begin

[Guest]

@StickyBun said:

@silverjoel said:

@StickyBun said:

Let's use some critical thinking.  If Cousins' passer rating was higher during blitzes (may or may not have had pressure) than with overall pressure (mid 80s passer rating), doesn't that mean the protction held even better on blitzes?

Nah, let's just blindly blame the nameless faceless OL.  

What?

Dude, sometimes when you try SO hard to be a contrarian, you lose credibility. If you can't acknowledge the O-line is garbage, there's really nothing I have to discuss with you. But keep playin' your tune, man. 

Ok.  Let's try a more simple version, but I'm not looking up the actual numbers because it's pointless.

Cousins overall passer rating was like 99.  His passer rating under pressure was like 83.  That would mean that with no pressure (most of the time), his passer rating was higher than 99.  The under pressure passer rating brings down the overall rating.  It's basic math. I would guess that without pressure his passer rating was like 108 (more overall passes without pressure, so the difference is less and a difference of about 16 for with pressure and I'd bet about 9 without pressure).  The average of no pressure and pressure brings it to about 99.  The same principals apply during blitzes (some blitzes have pressure and some don't).  Plus, blitz pickup isn't necessarily on the OL.

Do you have any actual analysis of the OL, or just what PFF allowed you to see without paying?  Do you believe all PFF ratings/rankings, or just the ones you want?

The OL wasn't good, but it's also not this historically bad line that gets thrown around.  Teams can win with a line like this, hell, the Vikings did last year and 2015.  Houston, Dallas and Seattle did this year.

[Guest]

@silverjoel said:

@StickyBun said:

@silverjoel said:

@StickyBun said:

Let's use some critical thinking.  If Cousins' passer rating was higher during blitzes (may or may not have had pressure) than with overall pressure (mid 80s passer rating), doesn't that mean the protction held even better on blitzes?

Nah, let's just blindly blame the nameless faceless OL.  

What?

Dude, sometimes when you try SO hard to be a contrarian, you lose credibility. If you can't acknowledge the O-line is garbage, there's really nothing I have to discuss with you. But keep playin' your tune, man. 

Ok.  Let's try a more simple version, but I'm not looking up the actual numbers because it's pointless.

Cousins overall passer rating was like 99.  His passer rating under pressure was like 83.  That would mean that with no pressure (most of the time), his passer rating was higher than 99.  The under pressure passer rating brings down the overall rating.  It's basic math. I would guess that without pressure his passer rating was like 108 (more overall passes without pressure, so the difference is less and a difference of about 16 for with pressure and I'd bet about 9 without pressure).  The average of no pressure and pressure brings it to about 99.  The same principals apply during blitzes (some blitzes have pressure and some don't).  Plus, blitz pickup isn't necessarily on the OL.

Do you have any actual analysis of the OL, or just what PFF allowed you to see without paying?  Do you believe all PFF ratings/rankings, or just the ones you want?

The OL wasn't good, but it's also not this historically bad line that gets thrown around.  Teams can win with a line like this, hell, the Vikings did last year and 2015.  Houston, Dallas and Seattle did this year.

Seriously? Did you watch the PFF video where they graded the Line as 30th out of 32 while listing Remmers and Compton as among the worst Guards in the League? That same video where they point put that Centers don't give up many individual pressures as they're usually helping a Guard double team? Rodney Hudson in Oakland gave up 5 pressures all season. Elf gave up 33 or some similarly outsized number.

Or how they discussed facts like Keenum having both a better O-Line and Rushing Game in Denver and still fell off a cliff this year, especially in 4th Quarters of tight games?

Of ciurse you didn't. Those are just useless stats being manipulated to paint journeyman QB Case Keenum in a bad light.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that if PFF had put out a stats-filled video showing why Keenum was and is the better QB you'd be all over it.

I'm not sold on Cousins. Period. I am sold on moving on from Case. You never will be and every single freaking one of us has heard you say it time and time again. When's enough enough?

[Guest]

@FSUVike said:

@silverjoel said:

@StickyBun said:

@silverjoel said:

@StickyBun said:

Let's use some critical thinking.  If Cousins' passer rating was higher during blitzes (may or may not have had pressure) than with overall pressure (mid 80s passer rating), doesn't that mean the protction held even better on blitzes?

Nah, let's just blindly blame the nameless faceless OL.  

What?

Dude, sometimes when you try SO hard to be a contrarian, you lose credibility. If you can't acknowledge the O-line is garbage, there's really nothing I have to discuss with you. But keep playin' your tune, man. 

Ok.  Let's try a more simple version, but I'm not looking up the actual numbers because it's pointless.

Cousins overall passer rating was like 99.  His passer rating under pressure was like 83.  That would mean that with no pressure (most of the time), his passer rating was higher than 99.  The under pressure passer rating brings down the overall rating.  It's basic math. I would guess that without pressure his passer rating was like 108 (more overall passes without pressure, so the difference is less and a difference of about 16 for with pressure and I'd bet about 9 without pressure).  The average of no pressure and pressure brings it to about 99.  The same principals apply during blitzes (some blitzes have pressure and some don't).  Plus, blitz pickup isn't necessarily on the OL.

Do you have any actual analysis of the OL, or just what PFF allowed you to see without paying?  Do you believe all PFF ratings/rankings, or just the ones you want?

The OL wasn't good, but it's also not this historically bad line that gets thrown around.  Teams can win with a line like this, hell, the Vikings did last year and 2015.  Houston, Dallas and Seattle did this year.

Seriously? Did you watch the PFF video where they graded the Line as 30th out of 32 while listing Remmers and Compton as among the worst Guards in the League? That same video where they point put that Centers don't give up many individual pressures as they're usually helping a Guard double team? Rodney Hudson in Oakland gave up 5 pressures all season. Elf gave up 33 or some similarly outsized number.

Or how they discussed facts like Keenum having both a better O-Line and Rushing Game in Denver and still fell off a cliff this year, especially in 4th Quarters of tight games?

Of ciurse you didn't. Those are just useless stats being manipulated to paint journeyman QB Case Keenum in a bad light.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that if PFF had put out a stats-filled video showing why Keenum was and is the better QB you'd be all over it.

I'm not sold on Cousins. Period. I am sold on moving on from Case. You never will be and every single freaking one of us has heard you say it time and time again. When's enough enough?

Yes, yes I did.  My favorite part was when the guy on the computer was all like Cousins is really good at play action passes and the Vikings only ran it like 28% of the time.  Let's look at Washington and I bet that number was higher...oh, that's about the same as Washington.  It's the OL.

I have never and will never blindly use PFF to support or go against any argument.  That's just lazy.  Any time I've ever brought up PFF stats, I preface it with "take it with a grain of salt" or "if you're into PFF".  You can look it up if you want.  I don't really like passer rating either, it doesn't account for anything outside of passes and puts way too big of an emphasis on completion percentage.  I like the idea of ESPN QBR, but it's propiatary and they have changed it over the years because they were getting so much flak for some of the ratings.  No no, I can do my own analysis.

Do you know how PFF gets it's non-traditional stats?  They have people that watch the game and give their evaluation.  You can be a PFF grader too.  They recruit new fans every year.  Pretty subjective if you ask me, especially since I work in a job that is highly important on individual interpretation.

For the record, I never wanted Keenum as a long term starter.  So, I'm not sure where you are getting that.  You can look that up too.  All of last year I questioned Keenum.  Look it up.  However, I can acknowledge that he did indeed play damn good last year under much more difficult situations than this year.  Hell, he probably didn't even really get first team reps until after week 2.  I want the Vikings draft a QB or at least go with a young QB, not sign a FA.  Keenum just shows that some QBs off the street can win with this team with the same or worse pressure rate.  Again, there was plenty of data on Cousins, not sure why some of you are suprized.  He looks the same as when I watched him live in the 2015 opener against the Dolphins.  Oh, what's that?  I lived in DC at the time and got a first hand look at Cousins?  Crazy.  I was even rooting for the Redskins to replace RG3 with Cousins because I thought he would be better.  I was wrong.  I can admit that.

One last little tidbit.

Before the season...Cousins just never played on a good team and their defense was bad.  This Vikings team is stacked with talent.

After the season...the Vikings need to upgrade several positions.  Cousins can't win with what they put out there and the defense let him down.

[Guest]

@silverjoel said:

@MarkSP18 said:

@silverjoel said:

@"BarrNone55" said:
@silverjoel you're right...Cousins had all day to throw and Cook had gaping holes to run through...

Is there any specific reason you're going to exremes?

Team rushing yards per attempt
2017 - 3.9
2018 - 4.2

I will never understand why some people trash the team to defend "their" player.2018 Cousins was pressured at 37%.
2017 Keenum was pressured at 39%. 
2016 Bradford was pressured at 33%. 
2015 Bridgewater was pressured at 46%.


The 2 QBs that get the most excesses from above also had the lowest pressure rate.  The other 2, the team was the reason for success.  Let's get back to that, winning and blaming the QB.

What is the usefulness of comparing different seasons?
Were the teams the same?
Were the opponents the same and did they have the same personnel.
It is ridiculous to make these comparisons.

By your criteria, you can't compare anything.  Other QBs in the same season are on different teams, different personnel, different schemes, different schedules.  So, the only way would be to compare Cousins to Siemian and Sloter and even that doesn't really work because they don't play and can't run the same play in the same situation.

But wait, you were a big proponent of getting Cousins based off his raw numbers on another team in other years.  Isn't that ridiculous?  Haven't you bashed Keenum who's on a different team with different personnel and a different schedule?  How does that meet your criteria?

Maybe you want to dismiss the comparison because it doesn't say what you want it to say.

Yes, I was a proponent of Cousins based on what he did in his first 3 years with the Redskins.  His durability and production stood out.
I never spoke of the nerd stat pressure rate and really do not even know where to find it to be honest.  I only looked at what he had done those 3 years in Washington.
Is that the same comparison being made now?   I do not think it is. 

I have not bashed Keenum so not sure where you got that from.  Once they leave here I pretty much do not care.
I am not trying to defend Cousins because I do not believe he needs to be defended.

[Guest]

@silverjoel said:

@StickyBun said:

Let's use some critical thinking.  If Cousins' passer rating was higher during blitzes (may or may not have had pressure) than with overall pressure (mid 80s passer rating), doesn't that mean the protction held even better on blitzes?

Nah, let's just blindly blame the nameless faceless OL.  

Since I do not know where these stats come from or who compiles them I can only ask one question here because I am easily confused.
How can a QB get blitzed and that translates to "may or may not have had pressure"?
Isn't getting blitzed the definition of getting pressure?

[Guest]

@TBro said:

@FSUVike said:

@TBro said:

@StickyBun said:
No excuses. The offensive line is a joke and the D-line does not match up well with Chicago, but can anyone with a straight face tell you the Bears aren't the dominate team in the NFCN and look to be for the foreseeable future? They bitch slapped Minnesota around twice.

Agreed. PA said we will probably be picked to finish 3rd in the NFCN next season and I can't argue with that. In a draft that is stacked with defense this year, how are we going to fix our offensive line?

There's plenty of guys you can take in the first or second and get a Day 1 Starter.
Jonah Williams-OT-Bama (probably goes Top 10).
Jawaan Taylor-OT-Gators
Greg Little-OT-Ole Miss or Mississippi State, has a rep of not playing to his potential
Dalton Risner-OT-K-State
Yodny Cajuste-OT-WVU
David Edwards-OT-Wisconsin  

Williams and maybe Taylor will be long gone by the 18th pick but the rest will almost certainly be available and I've seen every one of them as a 1st Round pick in a mock. Most will start off at Guard or RT.

So let's say the Vikings pick Risner, for example. He starts at RG and in two years moves to RT if O'Neil is ready to replace Reiff.

They overpay for Roger Saffold to lock down LG for a few years and bring Easton back as a swing interior backing up all 3 spots.

You can add one of the Sooner kids like Ford or Powers in the 3rd or one of the Badger Guards in the 2nd and now you've got a restocked unit that is young.

Shit, I'd actually take Christian Wilkins in the 1st to replace Richardson (and eventually Joseph), trade back into the 1st or high 2nd and snag whichever OT that falls AND take a Guard in the 3rd. Plus get Saffold.  That helps both Lines.

But lets please not say there's no fixes for the O-Line in the Draft just because it could be a historic one for DTs.

If we had a proven scouting staff and coaches with a great track record of finding and developing 2nd and 3rd day Offensive lineman, I might share your optimism. The fact is you are entrusting the Oline rebuild project in the hands of the same people that tried to convince everyone that Remmers would be better for us moving to Right Guard after he totally sucked filling in at LG in the playoffs. The same staff that though Hill could be a starting RT in this league. A team that gave up a 6th round pick for a Center/Guard that Shurmur didn't want and could never regain a starting position on the line when Elflein returned to the lineup and the interior of our OLine was getting blown up every week. We let our 6th round Guard get plucked off the practice squad only to find success as the potential long term starting LG for the Arizona Cardinals but he wasn't good enough to beat out Remmers and Compton?  I could go on, but that will take up a lot more time and space on this thread. In a draft that isn't loaded with OLine talent like last year, your selections better be spot on. The room for error is much smaller and I don't have any faith or trust in this Leadership Group to get that figured out in one offseason. I'm not arguing with you about the prospects you mentioned. I know that you follow the draft and spend time researching players but Zimmer and Spielman have made bad decision after bad decision when it comes to the OLine and I think it ultimately gets them fired after the lame duck year of their contracts expire in 2019. 

You forgot to mention they drafted Clemmings & Beavers in the 4th round and Yankey in the 5th.  They have to at least hit on one of those.  Even if they only stuck as a backup.

[Guest]

Is it bad if Clemmings and Beavers sound a little bit like upgrades right now? 

[Guest]

@MarkSP18 said:

@silverjoel said:

@MarkSP18 said:

@silverjoel said:

@"BarrNone55" said:
@silverjoel you're right...Cousins had all day to throw and Cook had gaping holes to run through...

Is there any specific reason you're going to exremes?

Team rushing yards per attempt
2017 - 3.9
2018 - 4.2

I will never understand why some people trash the team to defend "their" player.2018 Cousins was pressured at 37%.
2017 Keenum was pressured at 39%. 
2016 Bradford was pressured at 33%. 
2015 Bridgewater was pressured at 46%.


The 2 QBs that get the most excesses from above also had the lowest pressure rate.  The other 2, the team was the reason for success.  Let's get back to that, winning and blaming the QB.

What is the usefulness of comparing different seasons?
Were the teams the same?
Were the opponents the same and did they have the same personnel.
It is ridiculous to make these comparisons.

By your criteria, you can't compare anything.  Other QBs in the same season are on different teams, different personnel, different schemes, different schedules.  So, the only way would be to compare Cousins to Siemian and Sloter and even that doesn't really work because they don't play and can't run the same play in the same situation.

But wait, you were a big proponent of getting Cousins based off his raw numbers on another team in other years.  Isn't that ridiculous?  Haven't you bashed Keenum who's on a different team with different personnel and a different schedule?  How does that meet your criteria?

Maybe you want to dismiss the comparison because it doesn't say what you want it to say.

Yes, I was a proponent of Cousins based on what he did in his first 3 years with the Redskins.  His durability and production stood out.
I never spoke of the nerd stat pressure rate and really do not even know where to find it to be honest.  I only looked at what he had done those 3 years in Washington.
Is that the same comparison being made now?   I do not think it is. 

I have not bashed Keenum so not sure where you got that from.  Once they leave here I pretty much do not care.
I am not trying to defend Cousins because I do not believe he needs to be defended.

I do also read the Daily Norseman so...
It gets pretty bad when someone is on Cousins too much and you threaten to "give them a break".

[Guest]

@MarkSP18 said:

@silverjoel said:

@StickyBun said:

Let's use some critical thinking.  If Cousins' passer rating was higher during blitzes (may or may not have had pressure) than with overall pressure (mid 80s passer rating), doesn't that mean the protction held even better on blitzes?

Nah, let's just blindly blame the nameless faceless OL.  

Since I do not know where these stats come from or who compiles them I can only ask one question here because I am easily confused.
How can a QB get blitzed and that translates to "may or may not have had pressure"?
Isn't getting blitzed the definition of getting pressure?

No, by definition, a blitz is when a defense sends more than a normal amount of rushers.  Those rushers don't always cause pressure on the QB when the offense "picks up the blitz" as they say.

[Guest]

@MarkSP18 said:

@TBro said:

@FSUVike said:

@TBro said:

@StickyBun said:
No excuses. The offensive line is a joke and the D-line does not match up well with Chicago, but can anyone with a straight face tell you the Bears aren't the dominate team in the NFCN and look to be for the foreseeable future? They bitch slapped Minnesota around twice.

Agreed. PA said we will probably be picked to finish 3rd in the NFCN next season and I can't argue with that. In a draft that is stacked with defense this year, how are we going to fix our offensive line?

There's plenty of guys you can take in the first or second and get a Day 1 Starter.
Jonah Williams-OT-Bama (probably goes Top 10).
Jawaan Taylor-OT-Gators
Greg Little-OT-Ole Miss or Mississippi State, has a rep of not playing to his potential
Dalton Risner-OT-K-State
Yodny Cajuste-OT-WVU
David Edwards-OT-Wisconsin  

Williams and maybe Taylor will be long gone by the 18th pick but the rest will almost certainly be available and I've seen every one of them as a 1st Round pick in a mock. Most will start off at Guard or RT.

So let's say the Vikings pick Risner, for example. He starts at RG and in two years moves to RT if O'Neil is ready to replace Reiff.

They overpay for Roger Saffold to lock down LG for a few years and bring Easton back as a swing interior backing up all 3 spots.

You can add one of the Sooner kids like Ford or Powers in the 3rd or one of the Badger Guards in the 2nd and now you've got a restocked unit that is young.

Shit, I'd actually take Christian Wilkins in the 1st to replace Richardson (and eventually Joseph), trade back into the 1st or high 2nd and snag whichever OT that falls AND take a Guard in the 3rd. Plus get Saffold.  That helps both Lines.

But lets please not say there's no fixes for the O-Line in the Draft just because it could be a historic one for DTs.

If we had a proven scouting staff and coaches with a great track record of finding and developing 2nd and 3rd day Offensive lineman, I might share your optimism. The fact is you are entrusting the Oline rebuild project in the hands of the same people that tried to convince everyone that Remmers would be better for us moving to Right Guard after he totally sucked filling in at LG in the playoffs. The same staff that though Hill could be a starting RT in this league. A team that gave up a 6th round pick for a Center/Guard that Shurmur didn't want and could never regain a starting position on the line when Elflein returned to the lineup and the interior of our OLine was getting blown up every week. We let our 6th round Guard get plucked off the practice squad only to find success as the potential long term starting LG for the Arizona Cardinals but he wasn't good enough to beat out Remmers and Compton?  I could go on, but that will take up a lot more time and space on this thread. In a draft that isn't loaded with OLine talent like last year, your selections better be spot on. The room for error is much smaller and I don't have any faith or trust in this Leadership Group to get that figured out in one offseason. I'm not arguing with you about the prospects you mentioned. I know that you follow the draft and spend time researching players but Zimmer and Spielman have made bad decision after bad decision when it comes to the OLine and I think it ultimately gets them fired after the lame duck year of their contracts expire in 2019. 

You forgot to mention they drafted Clemmings & Beavers in the 4th round and Yankey in the 5th.  They have to at least hit on one of those.  Even if they only stuck as a backup.

Well, I did mention that I could go on with more examples, and those 3 failures would be part of the list, but I stopped it for space considerations. It makes you appreciate the years we had Randall McDaniel and the contractual wizardry displayed by Brez to get Hutchinson away from the Seahawks.