This wasn't on Keenum or Shurmur. ..there was room for improvement but our D DID nothing tonight to justify all those first round picks.
Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
This wasn't on Keenum or Shurmur. ..there was room for improvement but our D DID nothing tonight to justify all those first round picks.
Well, the defense sucked, but Keenum and Shurmur definitely played their part. The pick 6 was a horrible decision even if he would have got it off cleanly. The throw would have had to have been perfect to be caught in bounds and it was very likely to be intercepted. Case's fumble was directly caused by a poor play design or maybe a bad protection call. You want your blocking TE to run across your whole OLine and then block their edge rusher who's coming unblocked? Those 2 negative plays were the cause of 7 points directly, plus a FG or TD that we didn't get, so a 10-14 point swing plus a huge momentum change.
Quote: @"medaille" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
This wasn't on Keenum or Shurmur. ..there was room for improvement but our D DID nothing tonight to justify all those first round picks.
Well, the defense sucked, but Keenum and Shurmur definitely played their part. The pick 6 was a horrible decision even if he would have got it off cleanly. The throw would have had to have been perfect to be caught in bounds and it was very likely to be intercepted. Case's fumble was directly caused by a poor play design or maybe a bad protection call. You want your blocking TE to run across your whole OLine and then block their edge rusher who's coming unblocked? Those 2 negative plays were the cause of 7 points directly, plus a FG or TD that we didn't get, so a 10-14 point swing plus a huge momentum change.
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you. The pick-6 was a bad decision in general. Keenum getting hit on the throw made a bad decision turn into a horrific one, but either way he was throwing into quadruple coverage. Shurmur's protection call was garbage. Asking a TE to move across the formation to chip a DE is a recipe for disaster. I still think Keenum is meant to roll out on that play and he didn't. But either way that was 3 points lost.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
Like I've said several times, only on this board are there the Keenum naysayers: the rest of Viking fandom has a major crush otherwise. The debating of him while the Vikings ride into the NFCC game in spectacular fashion of which his play was a major part is interesting by some to say the least.
That is the furthest thing from the truth. I don't think the majority here are firmly against resigning Case. But anyone rationale isn't going to suggest bending over and writing the guy a blank check for his performance this season. If the league thought Case was a star in the wings he would have gotten more than a single year contract for $2M (the Vikings probably learned from this). Players can develop rapidly, but there is still risk in resigning Case without Shurmur. The point is that you need to balance that risk and price point with the risks of the other QB's on your roster. Sam is the most talented but can't stay healthy, Teddy is a complete unknown. But that is where the door also opens for external options and developmental draft picks as well.
It isn't. Who's writing him a blank check? But there is a going rate for that kind of season and performance and it won't be cheap. Its total fan-think to say sign him to a 'mid-range' contract with incentives...hilarious. He and his agent are going to strike while the iron is hot. Timing is everything. He won't break the bank but he won't come on the cheap, either. Aptly so. How can the organization commit to Bradford with that problematic knee? And Teddy is an unknown, like you mention. I wish the team could commit to Sam, but I don't see how. But he's the most talented.
Viking Nation will lose their shit if they walk from Keenum, guaranteed. The team likes a lot about his game. He's proven he can take a team to the NFCC game. I think the 'too close to the forest to see the trees' crowd this is lost on.
The point here is that regardless of Keenum's performance this season there is risk. There is when you resign any QB. But to view him as the QB of the future is premature. He played well this season. There is no guarantee he is going to play well next season. Just like there was no guarantee he would be anything more than a backup this season.
Should the Vikings let him walk? No. But you don't sign him to a multi year extension since that plays into Case and his agents hands. You use the franchise tag.
I think we all need to let things settle and see how things look.
With a good line and running back, Case could be enough to do what Zimmer wants.
He is a good person and hard working and as Zimmer sais has big balls...fits the the type of person Vikings like.
Main concern is arm strength.
He just needs to be what the new offensive cordinator wants.
Quote: @"Norse" said:
I think we all need to let things settle and see how things look.
With a good line and running back, Case could be enough to do what Zimmer wants.
He is a good person and hard working and as Zimmer sais has big balls...fits the the type of person Vikings like.
Main concern is arm strength.
He just needs to be what the new offensive cordinator wants.
I disagree with you here.
The main reason I think Case is out is that he DOESN’T fit with what
Zimmer wants. I think fundamentally,
Zimmer is a conservative coach. He wants
his defense to keep the score low, and his offense to be productive without
taking many risks. Case is fundamentally
a guy who loves to take risks. They put
a lot of effort into getting him to be less risky, but I’m not sure they can
get rid of it. I think it’s an innate
part of him. With Case, Bradford, and
Bridgewater being as close in talent level as they are, I just don’t see them
sticking with a guy who fundamentally goes against the core of what Zimmer is.
I think the biggest aspect of the offseason is to continue
to build our OLine and OLine depth such that whichever QB we end up with will
succeed. I see a lot of people
suggesting that Case’s mobility was key in avoiding a lot of the pressure that
the OLine let through. That’s probably
true, but you shouldn’t make a long term decision under the assumption that the
OLine is going to suck.
Quote: @"medaille" said:
@"Norse" said:
I think we all need to let things settle and see how things look.
With a good line and running back, Case could be enough to do what Zimmer wants.
He is a good person and hard working and as Zimmer sais has big balls...fits the the type of person Vikings like.
Main concern is arm strength.
He just needs to be what the new offensive cordinator wants.
I disagree with you here.
The main reason I think Case is out is that he DOESN’T fit with what
Zimmer wants. I think fundamentally,
Zimmer is a conservative coach. He wants
his defense to keep the score low, and his offense to be productive without
taking many risks. Case is fundamentally
a guy who loves to take risks. They put
a lot of effort into getting him to be less risky, but I’m not sure they can
get rid of it. I think it’s an innate
part of him. With Case, Bradford, and
Bridgewater being as close in talent level as they are, I just don’t see them
sticking with a guy who fundamentally goes against the core of what Zimmer is.
I think the biggest aspect of the offseason is to continue
to build our OLine and OLine depth such that whichever QB we end up with will
succeed. I see a lot of people
suggesting that Case’s mobility was key in avoiding a lot of the pressure that
the OLine let through. That’s probably
true, but you shouldn’t make a long term decision under the assumption that the
OLine is going to suck.
I thought Case's play was a breath of fresh air this year. Successful QBs need to be confident and willing to trust their abilities to attack the defense when necessary. I'm so sick of the scared, conservative QB play we've seen in Minnesota since basically Favre left. Bradford showed a little last year, but that was before the wheels fell off with injuries and everything else.
Winning 9-6 is great, but when games don't go your way defensively, you need a QB and offense who are willing and able to step up and give the team a chance to win.
Case and this offense have shown they could do that this year, even last week against the Saints after the defense collapsed. Obviously they didn't come through yesterday, but I am sick of the mentality (not yours) that a good defense means you need to run a conservative and chickenshit offense.
I definitely agree though that the offensive line is our biggest need this off-season once again (assuming that they bring at least one of the QBs back, preferably Keenum).
Quote: @"SFVikingFan" said:
I thought Case's play was a breath of fresh air this year. Successful QBs need to be confident and willing to trust their abilities to attack the defense when necessary. I'm so sick of the scared, conservative QB play we've seen in Minnesota since basically Favre left. Bradford showed a little last year, but that was before the wheels fell off with injuries and everything else.
Winning 9-6 is great, but when games don't go your way defensively, you need a QB and offense who are willing and able to step up and give the team a chance to win.
Case and this offense had shown they could do that this year, even last week against the Saints after the defense collapsed. Obviously they didn't come through yesterday, but I am sick of the mentality (not yours) that a good defense means you need to run a conservative and chickenshit offense.
I definitely agree though that the offensive line is our biggest need this off-season once again (assuming that they bring at least one of the QBs back, preferably Keenum).
I don’t disagree with you.
I think it was definitely a breath of fresh air to see someone slinging
the ball all around the field (except to our X receiver J ), but I’m just predicting
what I think Zimmer is thinking. I also
don’t think Zimmers desired offense is a chickenshit offense. I think we just got sideswiped by not having
enough talent on offense the last couple years prior to this year and we got
shoehorned into very one-dimensional offenses.
Bridgewater in 2015 had a ground game, but the OLine couldn’t pass block
and the WRs sucked outside of Diggs as a rookie, so we abandoned the passing
game. Bradford in 2016 had an OLine that
sucked at both pass blocking and run blocking, but he had Diggs and Theilen as adequate
receivers and we abandoned the deep passing game and the running game. With a decent OLine I would expect that we
would have a more dynamic offense regardless of QB.
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