Quote: @CFIAvike said:
@ Mattyman said:
Nix plays in a gadget offense that's designed to mask his weaknesses (ala throwing to anyone other than his first read). Bo Nix has Marcus Mariota written all over him.
He's similar to Mariota physically , but mentally Nix is way ahead of him.
Nix has better mechanics and fundamentals than MM.
Nix set the NCAA record for pass completion percentage @ 77.4%
And the "Gadget Offense" take doesn't fit .
https://duckswire.usatoday.com/2022/04/0...n-offense/
He’s not mentally ahead of anyone. He set the completion percentage record because Oregon didn’t ask him to do anything but throw screens, run some RPO (with one read), or check down if his first deep read wasn’t open.
He absolutely will not be able to handle the complexity of KOCs offense or any NFL offense for that matter.
see: Marcus Mariota
You might be right and frankly I assume you’re more educated on the subject than I am, so I value your input on Nix. But nothing is certain, especially when it comes to drafting QBs to the NFL. So there’s no reason to be hot taking and act like him busting is a guarantee. It’s not.
Quote: @pattersaur said:
@ CFIAvike said:
@ Mattyman said:
Nix plays in a gadget offense that's designed to mask his weaknesses (ala throwing to anyone other than his first read). Bo Nix has Marcus Mariota written all over him.
He's similar to Mariota physically , but mentally Nix is way ahead of him.
Nix has better mechanics and fundamentals than MM.
Nix set the NCAA record for pass completion percentage @ 77.4%
And the "Gadget Offense" take doesn't fit .
https://duckswire.usatoday.com/2022/04/0...n-offense/
He’s not mentally ahead of anyone. He set the completion percentage record because Oregon didn’t ask him to do anything but throw screens, run some RPO (with one read), or check down if his first deep read wasn’t open.
He absolutely will not be able to handle the complexity of KOCs offense or any NFL offense for that matter.
see: Marcus Mariota
You might be right and frankly I assume you’re more educated on the subject than I am, so I value your input on Nix. But nothing is certain, especially when it comes to drafting QBs to the NFL. So there’s no reason to be hot taking and act like him busting is a guarantee. It’s not.
Yep, none of us have a clue who will be successful and who won't. An opinion? Sure. That's why whomever Minnesota drafts for a QB (if they do), I'll find the positives and get behind the dude until proven otherwise. I don't need the team to draft 'my guy'.....I just want the pick to be successful regardless who it is.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ minny65 said:
@ jargomcfargo said:
@ CFIAvike said:
People on here are googling “recovery time for an Achilles” and are quoting 12-18 months. When that’s the average time for fat lazy assholes like us who tear our Achilles stepping off the curb wrong.
The 12-18 month recovery time has nothing to do with fat or lazy. It is simply old data.
In the past, the treatment was surgery and then a period of resting before beginning rehab.
The new standard of care is to begin rehab shortly after surgery. This has led to shorter recovery times with better functional outcomes.
BTW, the narrative that Rodgers was going to be playing football in 4 months was a pipe dream.
Actually the articles I have read said recovery to get back to professional athlete status in 12 - 18 months with a likelihood of never getting back to the level. Our own Akers is a case study we can observe. He came back the fastest, I think like 6/7 months and ended up playing like poop. Then he is let go and ends up with us and gets injured again. He will go down as one of the many that never come back even 90%. Now some will say the position matters (RB vs a statue QB) which it might, but Kirk is still going to be affected by that injury no matter what. He is so deliberate in his throwing motion and that will change. Plus Kirk is 36 not 30...big difference in terms of recovery and also our teams investment.
Yeah, I read that article you posted. It was very nearly journalistic malpractice to not even mention that position plays a bit part in recovery time.
No, I don't think Cousins achilles will be healthy enough to play CB, RB or WR in September. It's why I'm not expecting Cam Akers to be ready. But I think it's more likely a pocket QB will be able to play QB by then.
See how much power you can generate on a throw without your plant foot to drive off of. This notion that his play may not be affected from this injury is either naive or simply dillusional. It was the act of dropping back that led to this popping in the first place, there is plenty of pressure put on that tendon from a pocket passer, especially one that seems to find himself trying to stay upright as defender are trying to rip him down quite often. If he isn't full strength full explosion it will most certainly have a negative affect on his abilities to make the throws required from a pocket passer, probably more so than a guy that has escapabillity skills as Kirk doesn't have the luxury of running around and flipping the ball over out of position defenders that comes from scrambling.
No one is saying he's not going to be affected by the injury. Of course he is. I don't care if you're talking about an NFL QB or a pro chess boxer, your performance is going to be affected by an achilles injury until it's fully healed and you've regained full confidence in it.
I'm just saying that timeframe is going to be different for a pocket QB than it is for a RB, CB, WR, etc. And that statement should be obvious and not in the least controversial, but here we are.
You talk about plant foot. Do you have any idea how much more stress is placed onto the plant foot of a RB, CB and WR? Think about that for a bit.
How many 36 year old RB, Wrs or DBs are out there recovering from popped Achilles? If Kirk thinks he is worth market money per the PK article... then bye. There is just to much risk vs the reward that he won't come back close to what we saw last year, which still left aspects of the position to be desired, at a cost that made other improvements financially impossible.
Agree. This is why the decision is not an easy one and why we're all talking about it. How do you reach an agreement that gives you a competent QB in 2024, keeps your future financial vision intact, and allows for "outs" if Cousins is unable to return week one? Good question.
FWIW, HERE is an article that talks about achilles recovery time for NFL athletes, but they make it clear this is only for "skill positions."
The only QB I'm aware of who ruptured his achilles was Dan Marino in 1993, which is interesting because he was the same kind of QB as Cousins. He suffered the injury in October, same as Cousins, and he was 33 at the time. Kirk is 35. Marino played week one in 1994 and had a Pro Bowl season. And this was despite having a pretty serious complication during his recovery: "The surgery to fix the Achilles didn't work the way it was supposed to. The tendon atrophied and elongated, so I couldn't put weight on my toes and push off the front of my foot when I was throwing the ball."
Quote: @CFIAvike said:
@ Mattyman said:
Nix plays in a gadget offense that's designed to mask his weaknesses (ala throwing to anyone other than his first read). Bo Nix has Marcus Mariota written all over him.
He's similar to Mariota physically , but mentally Nix is way ahead of him.
Nix has better mechanics and fundamentals than MM.
Nix set the NCAA record for pass completion percentage @ 77.4%
And the "Gadget Offense" take doesn't fit .
https://duckswire.usatoday.com/2022/04/0...n-offense/
He’s not mentally ahead of anyone. He set the completion percentage record because Oregon didn’t ask him to do anything but throw screens, run some RPO (with one read), or check down if his first deep read wasn’t open.
He absolutely will not be able to handle the complexity of KOCs offense or any NFL offense for that matter.
see: Marcus Mariota
Just because a player didn't do something in college or wasn't asked to do something doesn't mean that player can't do it. We're very early in the evaluation process. If your observations on Nix are correct, we'll know for sure by draft day.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ minny65 said:
@ jargomcfargo said:
@ CFIAvike said:
People on here are googling “recovery time for an Achilles” and are quoting 12-18 months. When that’s the average time for fat lazy assholes like us who tear our Achilles stepping off the curb wrong.
The 12-18 month recovery time has nothing to do with fat or lazy. It is simply old data.
In the past, the treatment was surgery and then a period of resting before beginning rehab.
The new standard of care is to begin rehab shortly after surgery. This has led to shorter recovery times with better functional outcomes.
BTW, the narrative that Rodgers was going to be playing football in 4 months was a pipe dream.
Actually the articles I have read said recovery to get back to professional athlete status in 12 - 18 months with a likelihood of never getting back to the level. Our own Akers is a case study we can observe. He came back the fastest, I think like 6/7 months and ended up playing like poop. Then he is let go and ends up with us and gets injured again. He will go down as one of the many that never come back even 90%. Now some will say the position matters (RB vs a statue QB) which it might, but Kirk is still going to be affected by that injury no matter what. He is so deliberate in his throwing motion and that will change. Plus Kirk is 36 not 30...big difference in terms of recovery and also our teams investment.
Yeah, I read that article you posted. It was very nearly journalistic malpractice to not even mention that position plays a bit part in recovery time.
No, I don't think Cousins achilles will be healthy enough to play CB, RB or WR in September. It's why I'm not expecting Cam Akers to be ready. But I think it's more likely a pocket QB will be able to play QB by then.
See how much power you can generate on a throw without your plant foot to drive off of. This notion that his play may not be affected from this injury is either naive or simply dillusional. It was the act of dropping back that led to this popping in the first place, there is plenty of pressure put on that tendon from a pocket passer, especially one that seems to find himself trying to stay upright as defender are trying to rip him down quite often. If he isn't full strength full explosion it will most certainly have a negative affect on his abilities to make the throws required from a pocket passer, probably more so than a guy that has escapabillity skills as Kirk doesn't have the luxury of running around and flipping the ball over out of position defenders that comes from scrambling.
Agree. This is why the decision is not an easy one and why we're all talking about it. How do you reach an agreement that gives you a competent QB in 2024, keeps your future financial vision intact, and allows for "outs" if Cousins is unable to return week one? Good question.
It's why I continue to say a one year, competitive deal with incentives and a team option for a second year is the best option for the Vikings. Kirk is the best bridge option and gives us the best chance to win next year if he is healthy. I read his agent put something out the other day that Kirk is ahead of schedule in his rehab, plans on starting to throw again before the Combine, and all signs point to him being ready to go opening day 2024. Not surprising coming from an agent, but if true, that's encouraging. Regardless though, the Vikings have to protect themselves on any extension with Kirk and absolutely CAN NOT continue to kick money down the road in dead cap. I think this was the huge concern and why we couldn't come to an agreement on an extension before last season and the Vikings were wise to let him play it out.
If Atlanta or some other team wants to come in and give Kirk 35+ million a season on a multi year guaranteed extension...see ya. Let them take on that risk. One way or another it's a good thing this will all get sorted out before the draft.
Quote: @Knucklehead said:
@ CFIAvike said:
@ Mattyman said:
Nix plays in a gadget offense that's designed to mask his weaknesses (ala throwing to anyone other than his first read). Bo Nix has Marcus Mariota written all over him.
He's similar to Mariota physically , but mentally Nix is way ahead of him.
Nix has better mechanics and fundamentals than MM.
Nix set the NCAA record for pass completion percentage @ 77.4%
And the "Gadget Offense" take doesn't fit .
https://duckswire.usatoday.com/2022/04/0...n-offense/
He’s not mentally ahead of anyone. He set the completion percentage record because Oregon didn’t ask him to do anything but throw screens, run some RPO (with one read), or check down if his first deep read wasn’t open.
He absolutely will not be able to handle the complexity of KOCs offense or any NFL offense for that matter.
see: Marcus Mariota
Just because a player didn't do something in college or wasn't asked to do something doesn't mean that player can't do it. We're very early in the evaluation process. If your observations on Nix are correct, we'll know for sure by draft day.
Agree, thats why NFL scouts, Coaches and GM's get the big bucks. They have to determine if a kid has the ability to learn and progress and be coached up.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
No one is saying he's not going to be affected by the injury. Of course he is. I don't care if you're talking about an NFL QB or a pro chess boxer, your performance is going to be affected by an achilles injury until it's fully healed and you've regained full confidence in it.
I'm just saying that timeframe is going to be different for a pocket QB than it is for a RB, CB, WR, etc. And that statement should be obvious and not in the least controversial, but here we are.
Is this your medical opinion as a doctor? You think it takes a qb less time to recover from an achilles because he doesn't somehow hit the turf as hard or as often with his foot? Does an athlete recovering even go full speed during recovery?
Quote:You talk about plant foot. Do you have any idea how much more stress is placed onto the plant foot of a RB, CB and WR? Think about that for a bit.
How did you calculate the different levels of stress, was this a medical study you did?
I mean it's fine, we all have opinions but you are making like you have medical insight into this situation which frankly, I don't believe.
An interesting medical overview of the subject is available at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9463425/
Of particular interest is the subsection titled "Return to Play." Some excerpts:
"RTP is a major concern for athletes following an ATR. A recent meta-analysis by John et al. based on 15 studies demonstrated that the RTP rate was 76% among professional athletes, where the mean time to RTP was 11 months [ 56]. This is consistent with the RTP rate (80%) demonstrated in Zellers et al.’s systematic review and meta-analysis, which included 85 studies [ 57]. In comparison to other common lower extremity orthopedic procedures, including knee microfracture surgery, ACL reconstruction, patellar tendon repair, ankle, or tibial shaft fracture fixation, AT repair is associated with significantly lower RTP rates and significantly longer mean time to RTP .
Despite these challenges, a majority of athletes are able to RTP; however, decreased performance levels affect many athletes’ abilities to play at their baseline levels [ 38••, 63]. For NFL players, in their first year returning from ATR, studies demonstrate that athletes play in significantly fewer games, with reduced play time, and worse performance compared to age-matched controls and their preinjury baseline [ 11, 40, 64]. At 2 to 3 years after surgery, athletes recover to their baseline performance levels and numbers of games played; however, the duration of their NFL career is significantly shorter than controls (3.6 ± 2.1 years, p<0.05) [ 60, 64]."
While there are many factors that may contribute to the higher RTP rate and the overall improved performance observed among collegiate athletes in contrast to professional athletes, it is likely that the player’s age at time of injury is one notable difference [ 38••]. For example, among professional soccer players with ATR, age was identified as an important risk factor for worse outcomes [ 63]. Age greater than 30 years is associated with an increased risk of not returning to the same level of play (OR=4.46, p=0.030), increased risk of re-rupture within the first two seasons after RTP (OR=6.36, p= 0.05), as well as increased risk of postoperative complications, such as surgical site infection, nerve injury, and wound healing complications. Carmont et al.’s study, which focused on identifying factors that influence functional outcomes at 1 year from postoperative intervention (percutaneous and minimally invasive repair), indicates age to be the strongest predictor of outcome after ATR through multiple regression analyses of symmetrical heel-rise to height index (HRHI) [ 66•]. In this study, HRHI was selected as the primary variable of interest due to its association with reduced tendon elongation, which contributes to decreased plantar flexion and overall worse ATR outcomes in the long term [ 66•]. When considering age and its relationship to HRHI, these findings suggest that younger patients with ATRs experience reduced tendon elongation, thus increasing their likelihood of regaining ankle plantar flexion and achieving more successful AT recovery based on long-term outcomes.
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
No one is saying he's not going to be affected by the injury. Of course he is. I don't care if you're talking about an NFL QB or a pro chess boxer, your performance is going to be affected by an achilles injury until it's fully healed and you've regained full confidence in it.
I'm just saying that timeframe is going to be different for a pocket QB than it is for a RB, CB, WR, etc. And that statement should be obvious and not in the least controversial, but here we are.
You think it takes a qb less time to recover from an achilles because he doesn't somehow hit the turf as hard or as often with his foot?
It's not about the recovery time. It's more about the amount of stress put on the injury. A hundred years ago I played shortstop and sprained my ankle. They put me at 1st. I sure as hell couldn't have played shortstop. It's the same sort of thing. But if you want to believe an immobile pocket passer puts as much stress on his ankle as a RB, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you.
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
No one is saying he's not going to be affected by the injury. Of course he is. I don't care if you're talking about an NFL QB or a pro chess boxer, your performance is going to be affected by an achilles injury until it's fully healed and you've regained full confidence in it.
I'm just saying that timeframe is going to be different for a pocket QB than it is for a RB, CB, WR, etc. And that statement should be obvious and not in the least controversial, but here we are.
Is this your medical opinion as a doctor? You think it takes a qb less time to recover from an achilles because he doesn't somehow hit the turf as hard or as often with his foot? Does an athlete recovering even go full speed during recovery?
Quote:You talk about plant foot. Do you have any idea how much more stress is placed onto the plant foot of a RB, CB and WR? Think about that for a bit.
How did you calculate the different levels of stress, was this a medical study you did?
I mean it's fine, we all have opinions but you are making like you have medical insight into this situation which frankly, I don't believe.
An interesting medical overview of the subject is available at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9463425/
Of particular interest is the subsection titled "Return to Play." Some excerpts:
This is consistent with the RTP rate (80%) demonstrated in Zellers et al.’s systematic review and meta-analysis, which included 85 studies [ 57]. In comparison to other common lower extremity orthopedic procedures, including knee microfracture surgery, ACL reconstruction, patellar tendon repair, ankle, or tibial shaft fracture fixation, AT repair is associated with significantly lower RTP rates and significantly longer mean time to RTP .
Despite these challenges, a majority of athletes are able to RTP; however, decreased performance levels affect many athletes’ abilities to play at their baseline levels [ 38••, 63]. For NFL players, in their first year returning from ATR, studies demonstrate that athletes play in significantly fewer games, with reduced play time, and worse performance compared to age-matched controls and their preinjury baseline [ 11, 40, 64]. At 2 to 3 years after surgery, athletes recover to their baseline performance levels and numbers of games played; however, the duration of their NFL career is significantly shorter than controls (3.6 ± 2.1 years, p<0.05) [ 60, 64]."
While there are many factors that may contribute to the higher RTP rate and the overall improved performance observed among collegiate athletes in contrast to professional athletes, it is likely that the player’s age at time of injury is one notable difference [ 38••]. For example, among professional soccer players with ATR, age was identified as an important risk factor for worse outcomes [ 63]. Age greater than 30 years is associated with an increased risk of not returning to the same level of play (OR=4.46, p=0.030), increased risk of re-rupture within the first two seasons after RTP (OR=6.36, p= 0.05), as well as increased risk of postoperative complications, such as surgical site infection, nerve injury, and wound healing complications. Carmont et al.’s study, which focused on identifying factors that influence functional outcomes at 1 year from postoperative intervention (percutaneous and minimally invasive repair), indicates age to be the strongest predictor of outcome after ATR through multiple regression analyses of symmetrical heel-rise to height index (HRHI) [ 66•]. In this study, HRHI was selected as the primary variable of interest due to its association with reduced tendon elongation, which contributes to decreased plantar flexion and overall worse ATR outcomes in the long term [ 66•]. When considering age and its relationship to HRHI, these findings suggest that younger patients with ATRs experience reduced tendon elongation, thus increasing their likelihood of regaining ankle plantar flexion and achieving more successful AT recovery based on long-term outcomes.
Once again, Kirk's injury (sadly) is clear handwriting on the wall for me to move in a different direction.
If we resign him and he reinjures or plays at 80% who do we blame? Last year was bad luck the season before was Defense etc.
Let me just say this upfront, like I have been, the blame will go to Kwesi if we resign him for anything more than a huge bargain like 2 yr. 60 million which is not going to happen.
Time for a new Viking chapter - IMO.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ comet52 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
No one is saying he's not going to be affected by the injury. Of course he is. I don't care if you're talking about an NFL QB or a pro chess boxer, your performance is going to be affected by an achilles injury until it's fully healed and you've regained full confidence in it.
I'm just saying that timeframe is going to be different for a pocket QB than it is for a RB, CB, WR, etc. And that statement should be obvious and not in the least controversial, but here we are.
You think it takes a qb less time to recover from an achilles because he doesn't somehow hit the turf as hard or as often with his foot?
It's not about the recovery time. It's more about the amount of stress put on the injury. A hundred years ago I played shortstop and sprained my ankle. They put me at 1st. I sure as hell couldn't have played shortstop. It's the same sort of thing. But if you want to believe an immobile pocket passer puts as much stress on his ankle as a RB, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you.
Ok I get it, you're not a doctor but you slept at the Holiday Inn Express last night, so, medical opinions!
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