Kirk in Minnesota long term?

[Guest]

@pattersaur said:

@MaroonBells said:

@pattersaur said:

@Zanary said:
Yes, I'm defending the incumbent, again...but part of that will always come from memories of us being the aging QBs' "last chance team" at not-quite making it. The slew of not-quite-retired QBs was very hard on the Vikings fan wondering about the team's future.

The argument about "knowing what we have with Kirk" is kinda hollow, as he did have a revolving door of OCs, a line that never cracked the top 20, and a HC that honestly may have loved screens as much as Leslie Frazier did ("I'll check the tape"-LF).  As has been pointed out, Zimmer would stubbornly run Cook straight into the DTs for two straight downs and let KC sort out the resulting 3rd and 13 all too often...and/or pump the brakes on the offense once we got any sort of lead.

We haven't seen Cousins, Jefferson, Thielen, etc in an AMBITIOUS offense together, yet...which is an amazing thought, at least to me.  That's what I'm hoping to witness this season, among many other things.

I completely agree with your last paragraph and do admit that for a 10-years vet Kirk does have some upside. I’m just not willing to risk a 5 year top of the market deal to see if said upside materializes. It’s a huge risk. 

And it it doesn't, you're still getting a QB who's pretty much guaranteed to give you 4,000 yards and 30 TDs every year. 

4,000 yds, 30 TDs, and how many super bowls? I don’t care if our QB throws 7 INTs all year or 27… I just want the Vikings to win a Super Bowl while I’m still around.

I do wonder if the pro-Kirk militia truly believes we’ll win a SB during his next contract, or if we’re just glad to not be the Lions. 

I strangely bet that a productive, dependable QB will be a bigger asset than "game managers" that have become kinda obsolete.

[Guest]

@jargomcfargo said:
I get it. He was brought in to be the missing piece. After 4 years, call me skeptical. I realize the defense has been bad the last couple years. I realize the offensive line has been lacking. I've never seen so many excuses for one player before. It seems it's never his fault.
4 years of history tell me he will finish about .500 year in and year out and produce decent statistics. But he can't win the superbowl because winning isn't a QB stat.
The decision to bring him here decimated what was a pretty fair defense and got the GM and coach fired. Contractually they may need to keep him one more year. But extending him long term seems risky given past history. I hope it works out but I'm disappointed in the results for the past few years and don't blame it all on coaching. 

How did Kirk's arrival make Waynes and Hughes become flag magnets and injury prone, Gladney an abusive head case, Breeland a waste of carbon/oxygen, Hunter injured, etc...?

You're kinda determined to blame some odd things on the QB.

[Guest]

@JimmyinSD said:

@purplefaithful said:
I suspect when they extend KC, his $ will be less than Brady, Mahomes, Allen or Rogers...

But he deserves to be in the next tier. 

Brady has been playing for under 29 million...I wish we could get Kirk to see the benefit of that for him.

I'm sure Cousins and every player wished they were married to a supermodel worth $400 million. Alas just Brady, so the comparison is brutal.  Easy to take way less when your wife pulls  tens of millions more in annual salary than you. 

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@Knucklehead said:

@MaroonBells said:

@purplefaithful said:

Yeah, let's take a FAN poll before making a decision. LOL.

When it comes right down to it, and you weigh the ups and downs of all the options, a long-term extension with void years is probably the best. It allows us to add a few pieces to the defense and compete for a title in '22 and '23. Trade a player for a '23 pick, trade down in '22 for a '23 pick. Do whatever you have to do to maneuver into a high pick in '23. Draft the QB then. If you miss, you still have Cousins. If you hit, Cousins can be traded or voided. 

But if the plan is to draft the QBOTF in the 23 draft, doesn't it make sense to trade KC for picks which will allow you the ammo to move into the top 10 to draft that QB?

Yes, if you don't want or plan to be competitive in '22. It sounds like the team, from ownership to the coaching staff, thinks they can be. I agree. But we'll find out soon enough what they REALLY think. Personally, I think our best chance to win a championship in the next five years is with Kirk Cousins at the helm. 

But to hedge that bet, it would be a good idea to target '23 as the year to draft the QBOTF. But it doesn't necessarily require a Cousins trade to do that. They can trade Hunter or Harry or Kendricks or Bradbury or Thielen or Dalvin. Some are worth a lot; some are worth a little, but any of them would bring additional ammo. You can also trade #12 down for a '23 pick. You can also trade the '22 2nd rounder for a '23 1st. You can also trade future picks once we get to '23. All of these would be preferable to trading the starting QB, leaving Cook, JJ and company to slag through a couple seasons with a bridge QB and/or a rookie.

Because the truth remains that you don't know what you're going to get when you take a QB in the draft, even in the 1st round. Great if he's Herbert or Allen, but the odds say it's far more likely he's Tua, Love, Jones, Haskins, Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen, Wentz, Goff, Mariota, Winston, etc....

I'm convinced the Vikings would never trade their top 10 QB who's never hurt for what's behind door number 3. That's a good way to get yourself fired. But what they MIGHT do is keep Cousins, extend him, add void years, THEN draft what's behind the door. That way, if you hit, you trade Cousins for picks then. If you don't, you still have a top 10 QB who's never hurt. 

I think the biggest difference between the opinions on the board about what to do divide among those who think this is a talented roster and let's find out what a new coach, new schemes and a couple of new starters can do...and those who think we're "far away" and should rebuild. I don't understand the 2nd group, but I know there are those who think that. 

Yes, I am in the second group, and I really don't think we are that difficult to understand. It is not like Kirk has not raised concern that can be questioned and doubted.    I wanted Zimmer gone 3 seasons ago and it took a large number of posters to support only after this season was underway.  I do not think our best chance to win a Championship is by extending Cousins or having him as our starting QB the next 5 years at all and strongly support more of a rebuild mode.  Group 1 (you) and Group 2 (me) have Championship as our goal, but we have differing opinions on how to accomplish that.  

But if that does not happen, I will support Cousins.

[Guest]

@MarkSP18 said:
Teams that Cousins has been the starter for have made the playoffs 2 times in 7 years and never consecutively.  But there are always excuses.

The offensive line, the defense, the coaching, the scheme, etc.

At the end of the day, the playoff appearances is on his resume forever.

It would be asinine for the current regime to invest multiple additional years in this dude that for one reason or another, doesn't get his team to the playoffs.

I think that with the current draft and the lack of free agents that they should let him play it out.

They can absorb the 45M cap hit or ask him to add one void year to move some dead money to 2023.

If he is able to get his team to the playoffs, then they can talk extension in 2023.

If not, then they'll have tons of cap space and can figure it out.

The last two men who invested a ton of cap space and multiple years in this QB got fired.

But many Vikings fans want to continue to invest in this QB and expect that the team is going to improve the pass rush, corners, run defense, and interior offensive line pass blocking this year in free agency and the draft.

Good luck with all of that.

I am hoping and praying that this team can just get into the freaking playoffs in 2022.

Some considerations:

When an o-line is typically in the bottom quarter of the league rankings, that's no longer an excuse, it's a reason.  A play can't develop if the defense lives in the backfield, something functional fans understand and others strangely find unimportant.  This is beyond baffling.

Some of the Cousins Hate Mafia like to point to the Bengals' bad line as an excuse to hate out on Cousins, yet it took a mis-called "fumble" for them to beat us...and that line ultimately cost Cincy the big game.

Similarly, when the defense is rated in the same region as the Leslie Frazier era...and our coach is a "defensive guru" who has gotten to do a LOT of defensive player shopping/coaching during his tenure...that team isn't going to the postseason.  That's a helluva reason.  If you require clarification, re-watch the end of the loss to Detroit, or go back a season to Kamara running for 6 TDs through Zimmer's defense.

REASONS.

The team gets itself to the playoffs, not one dude.  That said:

The infamous cap hit came from him allowing him to restructure some of his money away from 2020, to help the team then.  That barely gets mentioned, because haters are...well, themselves.

Do they ever wonder why we could never seem to keep OCs, or accurate kickers...or build a consistent OL around our QBs?  Keenum lucked out, but his history before and after 2017 shows that season to be a one-off.  Philly kinda nailed that down.

Regarding our consistently productive, consistently under center, dork of a QB?

He's not perfect, and he's actually a mystery to me in some ways.  In Washington, he was on a team with known bipolar ownership and was treated like crap because they'd been all-in on RGIII.  With Minnesota, the OL has been rated as junk all 4 years, the defense has declined, and the head coach has been increasingly proven to be both obsolete and a petulant little jerk.  I don't actually know what he'll look like with an offensively-effective coaching staff, real support from same, and more allowances to do things like "audible" and have input on plays, etc.

The entire team, and the new staff, are basically auditioning this season.  I'd prefer, for cap reasons, for them to find an extension that gives both financial relief and continuity that would be a breath of fresh air after the recent mess.

[Guest]

@bigbone62 said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@purplefaithful said:
I suspect when they extend KC, his $ will be less than Brady, Mahomes, Allen or Rogers...

But he deserves to be in the next tier. 

Brady has been playing for under 29 million...I wish we could get Kirk to see the benefit of that for him.

I'm sure Cousins and every player wished they were married to a supermodel worth $400 million. Alas just Brady, so the comparison is brutal.  Easy to take way less when your wife pulls  tens of millions more in annual salary than you. 

kirk has made 160 million in his career.... does it really fucking matter at that point?  if this is about the money for kirk at this point... I think that would make the decision even that much easier to move on from him.

[Guest]

@JimmyinSD said:

@Riphawkins said:

@bigbone62 said:
From 2015 which was Cousins first year as the full time starter to 2020, Stafford's last year in Detroit here are their numbers. Pretty obvious why the comparison. Obvious if you are going off of real things and not clichés ole football coaches use that is. Numbers that are bolded are categories they bested the other QB in. 

Stafford
Games: 88
W-L: 39-48-1
Comp %:65.6
Passing Yards: 23,395
Rushing Yards: 713
Total Yards: 24,108
QB Rating: 96.2
Passing TDs: 151
Rushing TDs: 3
Total TDs: 154
INT’s: 59
Fumbles Lost: 3
Total Turnovers:62
Turnover Differential: +92































Playoffs: 0-1

Cousins


Games: 95


W-L: 49-44-2


Comp %: 68


Passing Yards: 25,342


Rushing Yards: 665


Total Yards: 26,007


QB Rating: 100.5


Passing TD’s: 172


Rushing TD’S: 16


Total TD’s 188


INT’s: 65


Fumbles Lost: 5


Total Turnovers: 70


Turnover Differential: +118


Playoffs: 1-2

Looks like Cousins is better, and I’m not being a smart ass.

Watched a couple of Rams games this year and Stafford didn’t look great, but that throw near the end of the game in Tampa Bay was a thing of beauty. 
Cousins can make that throw.

Kirk can make about any throw the play book requires,  but if he's pressured,  will he?  And if the play breaks down,  which so often happens in the NFL,  can/will Kirk make that throw/play is where the top QBs separate themselves from Kirk IMO  its not what he can do with time,  its what he hasn't shown to do when things don't go as planned,  thats why I dont like the idea of paying him like those top guys.

Yabbut, some of the QBs who can do exactly what you want can't do other things as well as Kirk can. Tebow, RGIII, Newton, Locker, Manziel, Mayfield...hell even Ponder could escape and make a play, but none of them had Cousins' arm talent. Specifically, his accuracy. 

Cousins isn't a perfect QB. But he does so many things incredibly well. And he's the kind of QB you can win a Super Bowl with if he has weapons, moderate protection, league average defense and a coach who doesn't butt-punt every close game he's in. 

If you're waiting for a mobile, elusive QB who can also do what Kirk does, you're going to be waiting a very very long time. I will say, however, the NFL seems to be getting a little better at identifying who those QBs are--probably analytics. So maybe we'll get lucky. 

[Guest]

@JimmyinSD said:

@bigbone62 said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@purplefaithful said:
I suspect when they extend KC, his $ will be less than Brady, Mahomes, Allen or Rogers...

But he deserves to be in the next tier. 

Brady has been playing for under 29 million...I wish we could get Kirk to see the benefit of that for him.

I'm sure Cousins and every player wished they were married to a supermodel worth $400 million. Alas just Brady, so the comparison is brutal.  Easy to take way less when your wife pulls  tens of millions more in annual salary than you. 

kirk has made 160 million in his career.... does it really fucking matter at that point?  if this is about the money for kirk at this point... I think that would make the decision even that much easier to move on from him.

And there it is, the painfully transparent jealous fan whining about "how much is enough" post. He's paid exactly what the market has dictated he be paid. If you arent getting paid what your profession dictates, you may want to take a look at the guy representing you at pay bump time.

If you are getting paid what you're worth. I sure hope you don't have know it alls who've never done your job obsessing about you online. Simply because you're better off financially and can do something they never could. 

Simply because you or I will never sniff that amount of money doesn't mean he, or any athlete doesnt deserve every penny they make.  Because NCAAF and NFL chew these guys up and spit them out to make insane profits. 

You have absolutely no clue what these guys give up. Family,  physical and mental health, substance abuse issues among much more. All a direct result of playing a game for your entertainment. I'm sure if you could "play the game for free" you would. Until you've actually played and realize it's not the fantasyland version Joe Sixpack thinks it is.

[Guest]

@Zanary said:

@jargomcfargo said:
I get it. He was brought in to be the missing piece. After 4 years, call me skeptical. I realize the defense has been bad the last couple years. I realize the offensive line has been lacking. I've never seen so many excuses for one player before. It seems it's never his fault.
4 years of history tell me he will finish about .500 year in and year out and produce decent statistics. But he can't win the superbowl because winning isn't a QB stat.
The decision to bring him here decimated what was a pretty fair defense and got the GM and coach fired. Contractually they may need to keep him one more year. But extending him long term seems risky given past history. I hope it works out but I'm disappointed in the results for the past few years and don't blame it all on coaching. 

How did Kirk's arrival make Waynes and Hughes become flag magnets and injury prone, Gladney an abusive head case, Breeland a waste of carbon/oxygen, Hunter injured, etc...?

You're kinda determined to blame some odd things on the QB.

So I assume you are suggesting Kirk's contract had no impact on the team, it was all bad luck? Then why was Zimmer fired? 
I'm not going to pick one sentence out of a paragraph you wrote, and respond with some tangential hyperbolic drivel because I disagree with you.
Good try but your argument is unconvincing.
I am hopeful that Cousins works out but feel it is risky. I remain skeptical.

[Guest]

@bigbone62 said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@bigbone62 said:

@JimmyinSD said:

@purplefaithful said:
I suspect when they extend KC, his $ will be less than Brady, Mahomes, Allen or Rogers...

But he deserves to be in the next tier. 

Brady has been playing for under 29 million...I wish we could get Kirk to see the benefit of that for him.

I'm sure Cousins and every player wished they were married to a supermodel worth $400 million. Alas just Brady, so the comparison is brutal.  Easy to take way less when your wife pulls  tens of millions more in annual salary than you. 

kirk has made 160 million in his career.... does it really fucking matter at that point?  if this is about the money for kirk at this point... I think that would make the decision even that much easier to move on from him.

And there it is, the painfully transparent jealous fan whining about "how much is enough" post. He's paid exactly what the market has dictated he be paid. If you arent getting paid what your profession dictates, you may want to take a look at the guy representing you at pay bump time.

If you are getting paid what you're worth. I sure hope you don't have know it alls who've never done your job obsessing about you online. Simply because you're better off financially and can do something they never could. 

Simply because you or I will never sniff that amount of money doesn't mean he, or any athlete doesnt deserve every penny they make.  Because NCAAF and NFL chew these guys up and spit them out to make insane profits. 

You have absolutely no clue what these guys give up. Family,  physical and mental health, substance abuse issues among much more. All a direct result of playing a game for your entertainment. I'm sure if you could "play the game for free" you would. Until you've actually played and realize it's not the fantasyland version Joe Sixpack thinks it is.

I said as much last week. Nothing screams tone deaf more than the 'how much money is enough' stuff from fans. Nonsensical.