Quote: @FSUVike said:
Last time i looked, which was two weeks ago, both Adam and Diggs are ranked in the Top 5 for Contested Catches.
If Bradford played the whole season I can guarantee you neither Receiver would be in the Top 10.
Both get wide spanking open and then have t make a contested catch because Case doesn't have the arm talent to hit them on a rope to all parts of the field.
This is something that has to be considered. Keenum enables the OC to call certain plays because of his innate mobility and pocket presence. And his arm strength prevents the OC from calling certain plays as well.
Shurmer makes it work. Can whomever replaces him also do that? Or will Pat's successor want someone with a livelier arm?
So we used to have people complain on this board that we didn't have WRers that would go and fight for the ball. Now we have two in the top 5 for contested catches and its the QB's fault?
Sigh. Its just all gets a little goofy because you can spin stats however your agenda fits. Regardless. This is a perfect example. If you look at the other WRers on that list for top 10, you'll find some damn good QBs throwing them the ball. (eye roll)
Here's the bottom line, and I say this admitting that Bradford has better arm talent: the Vikings won 13 games. How many more would they have won with Bradford? Or how many less? He's not mobile and that would have cost Sam in some games. Potentially, could have contributed to more losses than wins because 13 games won is a shitload.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ silverjoel said:
wow, look at Sams accuracy in the 21-30 range, that is amazing. Yeah, he was good in that range. There are issues with him though. He had by far the most overall passing attempts, but the fewest attempts over 21 yards. Also, quite a few of those passes are garbage time attempts. There's no question he's capable of those throws, but he is very reluctant and has been his entire career.
Quote: @silverjoel said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ silverjoel said:
wow, look at Sams accuracy in the 21-30 range, that is amazing. Yeah, he was good in that range. There are issues with him though. He had by far the most overall passing attempts, but the fewest attempts over 21 yards. Also, quite a few of those passes are garbage time attempts. There's no question he's capable of those throws, but he is very reluctant and has been his entire career.
yes, but he didnt show that hesitancy in the Saints game. This system was built for Sam and it showed.
And one thing we all can agree on
This O line makes everybody look better !
Including Shumer
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ silverjoel said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ silverjoel said:
wow, look at Sams accuracy in the 21-30 range, that is amazing. Yeah, he was good in that range. There are issues with him though. He had by far the most overall passing attempts, but the fewest attempts over 21 yards. Also, quite a few of those passes are garbage time attempts. There's no question he's capable of those throws, but he is very reluctant and has been his entire career.
yes, but he didnt show that hesitancy in the Saints game. This system was built for Sam and it showed. Not true. That first quarter (maybe a little more) it was like 5 yards an attempt (if my memory serves me right he was like 5 or 6 out of 8 for 40 yards). I'm not sure if it was the coaches or Bradford himself, but after that it was like he realized he could throw the ball down field (there were LBs covering WRs for the love of...) and actually did.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
Last time i looked, which was two weeks ago, both Adam and Diggs are ranked in the Top 5 for Contested Catches.
If Bradford played the whole season I can guarantee you neither Receiver would be in the Top 10.
Both get wide spanking open and then have t make a contested catch because Case doesn't have the arm talent to hit them on a rope to all parts of the field.
This is something that has to be considered. Keenum enables the OC to call certain plays because of his innate mobility and pocket presence. And his arm strength prevents the OC from calling certain plays as well.
Shurmer makes it work. Can whomever replaces him also do that? Or will Pat's successor want someone with a livelier arm?
So we used to have people complain on this board that we didn't have WRers that would go and fight for the ball. Now we have two in the top 5 for contested catches and its the QB's fault?
Sigh. Its just all gets a little goofy because you can spin stats however your agenda fits. Regardless. This is a perfect example. If you look at the other WRers on that list for top 10, you'll find some damn good QBs throwing them the ball. (eye roll)
Here's the bottom line, and I say this admitting that Bradford has better arm talent: the Vikings won 13 games. How many more would they have won with Bradford? Or how many less? He's not mobile and that would have cost Sam in some games. Potentially, could have contributed to more losses than wins because 13 games won is a shitload.
I wouldn't disagree with the point that both Diggs/Thielen's contested catch numbers are inflated by Keenum at QB. There have been numerous times each have made catches that were under thrown or left inside instead of putting the ball on the sideline. Not to say the same wouldn't be true for another QB, but its been an ongoing issue this season. The most pressing issue is the under throws. Case has been bailed out with PI calls, but eventually a good DB is going to take one of those away.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
Last time i looked, which was two weeks ago, both Adam and Diggs are ranked in the Top 5 for Contested Catches.
If Bradford played the whole season I can guarantee you neither Receiver would be in the Top 10.
Both get wide spanking open and then have t make a contested catch because Case doesn't have the arm talent to hit them on a rope to all parts of the field.
This is something that has to be considered. Keenum enables the OC to call certain plays because of his innate mobility and pocket presence. And his arm strength prevents the OC from calling certain plays as well.
Shurmer makes it work. Can whomever replaces him also do that? Or will Pat's successor want someone with a livelier arm?
So we used to have people complain on this board that we didn't have WRers that would go and fight for the ball. Now we have two in the top 5 for contested catches and its the QB's fault?
You want wide receivers who can win contested balls. You want a QB who doesn't throw them. I'm not sure why you sound so incredulous. Even Mike Zimmer said that Case has a horseshoe. What do you think that means? Would he say that about Sam or Teddy? Of course not. The notion that Keenum is a QB with below average arm talent being aided by a tremendous supporting cast is not an opinion restricted to a few people on this board. I would say it's actually the majority opinion.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
Last time i looked, which was two weeks ago, both Adam and Diggs are ranked in the Top 5 for Contested Catches.
If Bradford played the whole season I can guarantee you neither Receiver would be in the Top 10.
Both get wide spanking open and then have t make a contested catch because Case doesn't have the arm talent to hit them on a rope to all parts of the field.
This is something that has to be considered. Keenum enables the OC to call certain plays because of his innate mobility and pocket presence. And his arm strength prevents the OC from calling certain plays as well.
Shurmer makes it work. Can whomever replaces him also do that? Or will Pat's successor want someone with a livelier arm?
So we used to have people complain on this board that we didn't have WRers that would go and fight for the ball. Now we have two in the top 5 for contested catches and its the QB's fault?
You want wide receivers who can win contested balls. You want a QB who doesn't throw them. I'm not sure why you sound so incredulous. Even Mike Zimmer said that Case has a horseshoe. What do you think that means? Would he say that about Sam or Teddy? Of course not. The notion that Keenum is a QB with below average arm talent being aided by a tremendous supporting cast is not an opinion restricted to a few people on this board. I would say it's actually the majority opinion.
Its because its not a fair measuring stick. Go ahead, pull up the top 10 WRers in contested catches. Is anyone bitching about those QBs? Nope. And we know you aren't a Keenum fan, MB.
Like I said, I'm not trying to blow any smoke up anyone's rear end on Keenum. He was a journeyman before he got here. But he's having an amazing year, one in which there doesn't need to be any asterisks or 'horseshoes'. His arm is very average. And I love me some Zimmer, but the ol' ball coach doesn't know offense. All of these 'almost' INTs that Keenum HASN'T thrown means what exactly? Teddy had plenty of those. Its part of the game.
Here's what I'm starting to think and I say this liking Teddy: careful what you wish for. Because he might be the guy in 2018 and he might stink. And we'll be looking back at the gift horse in the mouth they let get away. I don't know what the right answer is, I really don't. Which QB to hitch your wagon to? But all this low level back biting on Keenum and the season he is having is pure goofiness.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
Last time i looked, which was two weeks ago, both Adam and Diggs are ranked in the Top 5 for Contested Catches.
If Bradford played the whole season I can guarantee you neither Receiver would be in the Top 10.
Both get wide spanking open and then have t make a contested catch because Case doesn't have the arm talent to hit them on a rope to all parts of the field.
This is something that has to be considered. Keenum enables the OC to call certain plays because of his innate mobility and pocket presence. And his arm strength prevents the OC from calling certain plays as well.
Shurmer makes it work. Can whomever replaces him also do that? Or will Pat's successor want someone with a livelier arm?
So we used to have people complain on this board that we didn't have WRers that would go and fight for the ball. Now we have two in the top 5 for contested catches and its the QB's fault?
You want wide receivers who can win contested balls. You want a QB who doesn't throw them. I'm not sure why you sound so incredulous. Even Mike Zimmer said that Case has a horseshoe. What do you think that means? Would he say that about Sam or Teddy? Of course not. The notion that Keenum is a QB with below average arm talent being aided by a tremendous supporting cast is not an opinion restricted to a few people on this board. I would say it's actually the majority opinion.
Its because its not a fair measuring stick. Go ahead, pull up the top 10 WRers in contested catches. Is anyone bitching about those QBs? Nope. And we know you aren't a Keenum fan, MB.
Like I said, I'm not trying to blow any smoke up anyone's rear end on Keenum. He was a journeyman before he got here. But he's having an amazing year, one in which there doesn't need to be any asterisks or 'horseshoes'. His arm is very average. And I love me some Zimmer, but the ol' ball coach doesn't know offense. All of these 'almost' INTs that Keenum HASN'T thrown means what exactly? Teddy had plenty of those. Its part of the game.
Here's what I'm starting to think and I say this liking Teddy: careful what you wish for. Because he might be the guy in 2018 and he might stink. And we'll be looking back at the gift horse in the mouth they let get away. I don't know what the right answer is, I really don't. Which QB to hitch your wagon to? But all this low level back biting on Keenum and the season he is having is pure goofiness. You know who else had a lot of "almost" INTs in his breakout year under Shurmur? Nick Foles. He actually holds the lowest INT rate in NFL history for that year.
Anyone of the three could suck next year, that's the point of looking at clues that can help determine future success. Most people seem to not care about the process, only the result, but in major sports, the process is more important. Results are going to vary no matter what, it's the randomness of sports, but if a player/coach sets up the best process, more sustained success will be achieved.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ FSUVike said:
Last time i looked, which was two weeks ago, both Adam and Diggs are ranked in the Top 5 for Contested Catches.
If Bradford played the whole season I can guarantee you neither Receiver would be in the Top 10.
Both get wide spanking open and then have t make a contested catch because Case doesn't have the arm talent to hit them on a rope to all parts of the field.
This is something that has to be considered. Keenum enables the OC to call certain plays because of his innate mobility and pocket presence. And his arm strength prevents the OC from calling certain plays as well.
Shurmer makes it work. Can whomever replaces him also do that? Or will Pat's successor want someone with a livelier arm?
So we used to have people complain on this board that we didn't have WRers that would go and fight for the ball. Now we have two in the top 5 for contested catches and its the QB's fault?
You want wide receivers who can win contested balls. You want a QB who doesn't throw them. I'm not sure why you sound so incredulous. Even Mike Zimmer said that Case has a horseshoe. What do you think that means? Would he say that about Sam or Teddy? Of course not. The notion that Keenum is a QB with below average arm talent being aided by a tremendous supporting cast is not an opinion restricted to a few people on this board. I would say it's actually the majority opinion.
Its because its not a fair measuring stick. Go ahead, pull up the top 10 WRers in contested catches. Is anyone bitching about those QBs? Nope. And we know you aren't a Keenum fan, MB.
Like I said, I'm not trying to blow any smoke up anyone's rear end on Keenum. He was a journeyman before he got here. But he's having an amazing year, one in which there doesn't need to be any asterisks or 'horseshoes'. His arm is very average. And I love me some Zimmer, but the ol' ball coach doesn't know offense. All of these 'almost' INTs that Keenum HASN'T thrown means what exactly? Teddy had plenty of those. Its part of the game.
Here's what I'm starting to think and I say this liking Teddy: careful what you wish for. Because he might be the guy in 2018 and he might stink. And we'll be looking back at the gift horse in the mouth they let get away. I don't know what the right answer is, I really don't. Which QB to hitch your wagon to? But all this low level back biting on Keenum and the season he is having is pure goofiness.
What's more likely? That Case is another rare Kurt Warner type? Or that he's a Ryan Fitzpatrick type?
History proves that for every Warner you get dozens of guys who look Franchise fir one season and never can duplicate that feat again.
If I'm betting on a guy to stay at that level in personally need to see an arm that can make all the throws and a brain that can process quickly and go through progressions fast. Those aren't Keenum"s strengths.
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