Quote: @PapaScott said:
@ greediron said:
Pretty simple. We have 2 losses, so those are obvious. Especially since the defense played pretty well in both of them. And it has been pointed out elsewhere that there are other games where he either had a slow start or didn't play that well.
I've pointed out the Lions game in this thread, recapped the game and the play by play. So to Pin the lose on Case for the Lions game I think is wrong and not fair. As far as the Steelers game, I said it back then and still contend that the Vikings did not expect to win that game, Especially with the Condition of Sam, if I recall correctly it was a very late decision that Sam would not play, as I said in thread talking and breaking down the lions game I wasn't going to take the time to rewatch the steelers game to see how Case played. I think in light of the uncertainty of who was starting and on the road facing the steelers it was a given we were not going to win that game. As far as the other games, the bottom line is we won, to complain that we did not start fast really doesn't matter, what matters is what happens in the fourth quarter and the final score. I would like to look at the games he "did not play that well"
Well look again at the Detroit game. We score 7 points at home. So, as far as I can tell, he didn't play well. You might not want to pin it all on him with the other fumbles and such, but he didn't play well enough to win that game.
Browns, he didn't play well for a significant part of that game. Baltimore as well. So stop moving the goal posts. You asked what more we wanted from him. I said as a fan, we all want perfection. But what can we reasonably expect? Well, I expect less WTF throws. I expect less reliance on luck. I expect more consistency. Or maybe those are all hope rather than expectation.
I like Case. He has been a great signing for this team. He has helped us to a 7-2 record. But the big question is can we expect to continue to win if he keeps playing like he currently is. I certainly hope so.
Quote: @Mike Olson said:
Case has guided the offense to 34, 23 and 24 in home games outside of Detroit.
Is there anything saying that Case CAN'T be a starter in this league other than past history? I am starting to wonder if the guy could actually be a starter. I'd bet other teams that may need a QB are starting to keep a tab on him as well.
If you watch him play and make his throws, it's pretty decisive and very effective. I don't see any hesitation out of him at all. The floater/INT in Washington was a) a bad decision, b) the type of play a QB makes when he believes in his WRs, c) one of those split second plays that as soon as the ball leaves your fingertips, you wished you had it back. Unfortunately because there are a lot of high round picks around the league, Case probably won't be brought into another team as a starter. He would be brought in to compete, and if I were Case it wouldn't be on a team who has too much invested in his competition. He needs a level playing field to compete, because he isn't a superstar athlete, but he is very effective as we have witnessed.
The first Sb won by the Vikings was in their home stadium with a backup QB - is what will be written and will be the obscure fact in Vikings history.
Quote: @PapaScott said:
@ silverjoel said:
@ PapaScott said:
@ greediron said:
@ PapaScott said:
@ greediron said:
One fumble was on Case, correct?
What more do I want? More than 7 points at home. Yes, two of the fumbles were not on him. But 7 points at home. Defense played lights out and we only score 7.
What do I expect? Consistency. But not sure I actually expect that. He is a great backup. Lots of energy, plays well enough to win most games. But avoiding the WTF plays would be a good start.
Just re reading this. When you says plays well enough to win most games. So are their games he has not played well enough to win?
????
Obviously.
It's not obvious to me, so that's why I asked. This may come across as snarky (text not conversation), but I'm really not trying to be.
You proposed the question of what more does Keenum need to do. There are plenty of valid points several have brought up that question Keenum (both stats and eye-test). You are dismissing all of them as it's pretty clear your mind is already made up. Why ask the question if you don't want to hear or actually discuss the answers?
I've made a effort to address everything. What am I missing? dismissing?
The only thing I have seen as a response to my question is "perfection" a Superbowl A comeback, with a deficit in the 4th quarter. Win against a better defense. My mind is made up about what?
I asked the question because I truly want to know.
what have I not discussed? or not want to hear? I think this will be it for me in this thread.
There have been plenty of things pointed out: floating passes, the "WTF" throws and poor games. Keenum didn't play well against the Lions, it's not that surprising as QBs have poor games, but instead of just accepting that it was a poor game you're looking at other reasons for his poor performance (poor maybe a little harsh, more like meh). I showed the passer rating stats that show he has been a bit below average when compared to other QBs facing the same team for most of the games. Instead of being like "interesting" or "I see where you're coming from even if I don't agree" it's "that doesn't really show QB performance because of stuff."
I don't think anyone is really looking for perfection. It doesn't really matter what anyone thinks though, it's going to play itself out over the next 4 weeks.
What do I want from Case this week?
A Vikings victory.
BOOM
Quote: @silverjoel said:
@ PapaScott said:
@ silverjoel said:
@ PapaScott said:
@ greediron said:
@ PapaScott said:
@ greediron said:
One fumble was on Case, correct?
What more do I want? More than 7 points at home. Yes, two of the fumbles were not on him. But 7 points at home. Defense played lights out and we only score 7.
What do I expect? Consistency. But not sure I actually expect that. He is a great backup. Lots of energy, plays well enough to win most games. But avoiding the WTF plays would be a good start.
Just re reading this. When you says plays well enough to win most games. So are their games he has not played well enough to win?
????
Obviously.
It's not obvious to me, so that's why I asked. This may come across as snarky (text not conversation), but I'm really not trying to be.
You proposed the question of what more does Keenum need to do. There are plenty of valid points several have brought up that question Keenum (both stats and eye-test). You are dismissing all of them as it's pretty clear your mind is already made up. Why ask the question if you don't want to hear or actually discuss the answers?
I've made a effort to address everything. What am I missing? dismissing?
The only thing I have seen as a response to my question is "perfection" a Superbowl A comeback, with a deficit in the 4th quarter. Win against a better defense. My mind is made up about what?
I asked the question because I truly want to know.
what have I not discussed? or not want to hear? I think this will be it for me in this thread.
There have been plenty of things pointed out: floating passes, the "WTF" throws and poor games. Keenum didn't play well against the Lions, it's not that surprising as QBs have poor games, but instead of just accepting that it was a poor game you're looking at other reasons for his poor performance (poor maybe a little harsh, more like meh). I showed the passer rating stats that show he has been a bit below average when compared to other QBs facing the same team for most of the games. Instead of being like "interesting" or "I see where you're coming from even if I don't agree" it's "that doesn't really show QB performance because of stuff."
I don't think anyone is really looking for perfection. It doesn't really matter what anyone thinks though, it's going to play itself out over the next 4 weeks.
I went and looked at the game (lions) do you disagree with my recap? I don't except that he had a poor game HE DID NOT HAVE A POOR PERFORMANCE. As far as the QBR rating I don't exactly know what goes into all the numbers, but I'm assuming it factors in attempts and completions. so if a qb makes a throw and the WR drops it, defender interferes, falls down or other reason and the ball is not caught is that on the QB? is that factored in? So do you see why I don't think the QBR is an end all? ( I just went to look up staffords qbr rating for the game, interestingly Keenum is ranked #3 in abr ratings for the year)I took the time to go back and watch the Lions game watch the plays, the situation. Look for examples of him having poor plays. You can't look at a box score and say "this" happened for example score was 14-7 from the box score you would think that the Lions scored 2 TD's but they didn't they scored one with a 2pt conversion. so we can sit here and put up stats, ratings etc... but it doens't tell the whole story. Ask Zimmer what he thinks of rankings.
Keenum has a tendency to make high throws I saw plenty of examples in the Lions game, I didn't mention them because on the very next play he makes a great throw and was picking up 1st downs.
I think we could take Case's name out of the question. What do you want from a QB if you take those answers and plug it into The last 8 games you will see that most if not all of your answers are being met.
That stuff happens to all QBs. If you went looking at each play, you could make excuses for everyone of them. Not saying it doesn't affect the score, but given a few exceptions, scoring a mere 7 points at home qualifies as "not playing well enough to win".
Not sure what else there is to say. I haven't seen my answers being met. If you have, that is your take. Mine has been detailed. Too many hide the women and children type of throws. Too many missed throws.
Quote: @PapaScott said:
@ silverjoel said:
@ PapaScott said:
@ silverjoel said:
@ PapaScott said:
@ greediron said:
@ PapaScott said:
@ greediron said:
One fumble was on Case, correct?
What more do I want? More than 7 points at home. Yes, two of the fumbles were not on him. But 7 points at home. Defense played lights out and we only score 7.
What do I expect? Consistency. But not sure I actually expect that. He is a great backup. Lots of energy, plays well enough to win most games. But avoiding the WTF plays would be a good start.
Just re reading this. When you says plays well enough to win most games. So are their games he has not played well enough to win?
????
Obviously.
It's not obvious to me, so that's why I asked. This may come across as snarky (text not conversation), but I'm really not trying to be.
You proposed the question of what more does Keenum need to do. There are plenty of valid points several have brought up that question Keenum (both stats and eye-test). You are dismissing all of them as it's pretty clear your mind is already made up. Why ask the question if you don't want to hear or actually discuss the answers?
I've made a effort to address everything. What am I missing? dismissing?
The only thing I have seen as a response to my question is "perfection" a Superbowl A comeback, with a deficit in the 4th quarter. Win against a better defense. My mind is made up about what?
I asked the question because I truly want to know.
what have I not discussed? or not want to hear? I think this will be it for me in this thread.
There have been plenty of things pointed out: floating passes, the "WTF" throws and poor games. Keenum didn't play well against the Lions, it's not that surprising as QBs have poor games, but instead of just accepting that it was a poor game you're looking at other reasons for his poor performance (poor maybe a little harsh, more like meh). I showed the passer rating stats that show he has been a bit below average when compared to other QBs facing the same team for most of the games. Instead of being like "interesting" or "I see where you're coming from even if I don't agree" it's "that doesn't really show QB performance because of stuff."
I don't think anyone is really looking for perfection. It doesn't really matter what anyone thinks though, it's going to play itself out over the next 4 weeks.
I went and looked at the game (lions) do you disagree with my recap? I don't except that he had a poor game HE DID NOT HAVE A POOR PERFORMANCE. As far as the QBR rating I don't exactly know what goes into all the numbers, but I'm assuming it factors in attempts and completions. so if a qb makes a throw and the WR drops it, defender interferes, falls down or other reason and the ball is not caught is that on the QB? is that factored in? So do you see why I don't think the QBR is an end all? ( I just went to look up staffords qbr rating for the game, interestingly Keenum is ranked #3 in abr ratings for the year)I took the time to go back and watch the Lions game watch the plays, the situation. Look for examples of him having poor plays. You can't look at a box score and say "this" happened for example score was 14-7 from the box score you would think that the Lions scored 2 TD's but they didn't they scored one with a 2pt conversion. so we can sit here and put up stats, ratings etc... but it doens't tell the whole story. Ask Zimmer what he thinks of rankings.
Keenum has a tendency to make high throws I saw plenty of examples in the Lions game, I didn't mention them because on the very next play he makes a great throw and was picking up 1st downs.
I think we could take Case's name out of the question. What do you want from a QB if you take those answers and plug it into The last 8 games you will see that most if not all of your answers are being met. You're explaining away the bad and only care about the good that supports your belief. I could easily do the opposite. The Vikings have one of the lowest dropped passes in the NFL.
http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmlea...?range=NFL&rank=232&type=Receiving
I could easily say that the WRs are bailing Keenum out based on the tough catches and low drops. That's cherry picking. I could easily say that 9 of Keenum's TD passes are from 2.5 games with only 2 TD passes for the other 5 games. Again, cherry picking. I could also point out that Keenum has thrown an INT in 4 straight games. I COULD explain away the good and only point out the bad which would be there opposite of what you're doing. It's right in your reply, Keenum missed some throws, but those don't matter because he also made some throws.
I know passer rating isn't the end all be all, I've already stated that. You can look up the formula, it's widely available. Have you watched other teams play the Lions? How do their QBs fair? That's why I used it. It would be expected for a QB to generally have a good game against a bad defense. So, how Keenum fairs against certain teams in passer rating is the tangible support for my position.
I'm trying to view the entire body of work, not just what I want to see. Keenum has played very well in some games and poor in others. I don't think looking for simply more good games than poor games is unreasonable.
Quote: @greediron said:
That stuff happens to all QBs. If you went looking at each play, you could make excuses for everyone of them. Not saying it doesn't affect the score, but given a few exceptions, scoring a mere 7 points at home qualifies as "not playing well enough to win".
Not sure what else there is to say. I haven't seen my answers being met. If you have, that is your take. Mine has been detailed. Too many hide the women and children type of throws. Too many missed throws.
It would great to rewatch the game with you. What do you call it when a qb throws a ball to a WR and the Defender holds him making the WR unable to catch the ball. Is that an excuse? It's not me making stuff up, it's clear it's on video, the announcers are even talking about it. I"M not trying to make excuses for Case. I'm trying to point out that what is reasonable to expect from a QB is being met. we all want the vikings to win 7 times CHECK 2 loses SEE I TOLD YOU HE CANT GET IT DONE he had a poor game. It is simply not true. I'm not speaking to the steelers game I have not gone back to review it.
I"m off to watch some High School football State championship game...
Thanks for the discussion
Quote: @silverjoel said:Name calling. Nice. I already stated what I want to see from Keenum. I showed stats to backup my position and outlined what it would take to be more comfortable with him going into a playoff game. You name call.
I'll go out on limb here and say I bet you were hoping for Bradford to come back all season right up until he went to IR (there has only been one game since then). Anybody but Bridgewater, right?
Sliver I'm sorry the name calling hurt your feelings. I would be happy to remove if you like, just ask if you would like it removed.
I'm just happy we're winning...That's all I really care about.
I will admit that I think Sam has the best arm of the 3. But I also think he is the least likely to play again this year.
Quote: @PapaScott said:
@ greediron said:
That stuff happens to all QBs. If you went looking at each play, you could make excuses for everyone of them. Not saying it doesn't affect the score, but given a few exceptions, scoring a mere 7 points at home qualifies as "not playing well enough to win".
Not sure what else there is to say. I haven't seen my answers being met. If you have, that is your take. Mine has been detailed. Too many hide the women and children type of throws. Too many missed throws.
It would great to rewatch the game with you. What do you call it when a qb throws a ball to a WR and the Defender holds him making the WR unable to catch the ball. Is that an excuse? It's not me making stuff up, it's clear it's on video, the announcers are even talking about it. I"M not trying to make excuses for Case. I'm trying to point out that what is reasonable to expect from a QB is being met. we all want the vikings to win 7 times CHECK 2 loses SEE I TOLD YOU HE CANT GET IT DONE he had a poor game. It is simply not true. I'm not speaking to the steelers game I have not gone back to review it.
I"m off to watch some High School football State championship game...
Thanks for the discussion
And I disagree. But he is doing enough to win most right now. I just don't think it is sustainable.
|
