Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ minny65 said:
@ jargomcfargo said:
@ CFIAvike said:
People on here are googling “recovery time for an Achilles” and are quoting 12-18 months. When that’s the average time for fat lazy assholes like us who tear our Achilles stepping off the curb wrong.
The 12-18 month recovery time has nothing to do with fat or lazy. It is simply old data.
In the past, the treatment was surgery and then a period of resting before beginning rehab.
The new standard of care is to begin rehab shortly after surgery. This has led to shorter recovery times with better functional outcomes.
BTW, the narrative that Rodgers was going to be playing football in 4 months was a pipe dream.
Actually the articles I have read said recovery to get back to professional athlete status in 12 - 18 months with a likelihood of never getting back to the level. Our own Akers is a case study we can observe. He came back the fastest, I think like 6/7 months and ended up playing like poop. Then he is let go and ends up with us and gets injured again. He will go down as one of the many that never come back even 90%. Now some will say the position matters (RB vs a statue QB) which it might, but Kirk is still going to be affected by that injury no matter what. He is so deliberate in his throwing motion and that will change. Plus Kirk is 36 not 30...big difference in terms of recovery and also our teams investment.
Yeah, I read that article you posted. It was very nearly journalistic malpractice to not even mention that position plays a bit part in recovery time.
No, I don't think Cousins achilles will be healthy enough to play CB, RB or WR in September. It's why I'm not expecting Cam Akers to be ready. But I think it's more likely a pocket QB will be able to play QB by then.
Nor did the article consider the age of the player when the achilles tear happens. No perfect science as I stated just giving some other thoughts other than 100% recovery week 1 
Quote: @Zanary said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ CFIAvike said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ CFIAvike said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Zanary said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Who's to say Cousins even comes back as the same player, even with advancements in medicine? That's his plant achillies he blew out and any instability leads to less zip on throws and the body potentially compensating leading to other injuries. He's 36 and that's not the kind of injury you want for those very reasons. The injury and the age muddies the waters even more on wether we had any intention on bringing him back anyway. I wouldn't do anything outside of an incentive laden one year deal, with a team option for a second year. It's just such a huge roll of the dice to get into "guarantees" and big money deals (which you know he wants) when talking about a guy like Cousins and the circumstances surrounding that signing.
I'm not so certain that Russell Wilson wouldn't be the better bet on a short term deal
OK, a couple of things:
1. Kirk has been one of the most robust players in the league, especially at his position. I have to believe he's attacking his rehab (now with stem cells, apparently) the way he maintained his endurance. He's likely going to want more than a year, and as he's rated as the top or among the top free agents and was leading the NFL in TD passes when injured...he has some ammo on his side. That said, he hasn't pushed to reset the league max since his initial deal, and I don't see him pushing for Burrows/Herbert money now.
2. On that topic...Wilson DOES want serious money, his own office, his own training staff, his...well, it's all about him, him, him at this point, and he's shown less endurance than Cousins, while also arguably looking "cooked" as opposed to "having a career year" which was the case for Kirk up to the Achilles "pop"
First of all, the list of NFL QB's that have torn their Achilles in their 30's in the last 30 years is Marino, Rodgers, and Cousins. Don't act like there's a graveyard of careers for Quarterbacks in their 30's who couldn't recover from an achilles tear. Again I'm going to side with modern medicine, world class athletic training, and someone in top physical condition to bounce back.
Secondly, what on Earth leads you to believe that Cousins' play is ready to fall off a cliff. In fact, this year his play was ASCENDING until the injury...dude was on pace for 5000 yards and 40+ TDs. Shit, Joe Flacco rolled off the couch at 39 years old and made the Browns a playoff contender after their season was all but sunk.
Look, I'm not advocating for a 5 year deal here, but a 2-3 year deal that gives the team time to find a successor while legitimately being able to be a playoff contender is the smartest thing for the team. And do so at a market fair price. You can't possibly tell me that Cousins isn't a better QB than any of the 4 QBs remaining in the NFC last week. Without the injury I honestly believe we'd have been a playoff team and likely competing this weekend. Kirk Cousins is PLENTY good enough for us to win a chip....period. And contrary to the naysayers, nothing about any of his contracts have stopped us from putting a championship team together. Poor/mediocre drafting and other personnel whiffs have WAY more to do with the team's lack of success than Kirk Cousins or any of his contracts.
Why do you think there are a list of teams hoping he hits the FA market? Why do you think he sits atop multiple lists as potentially the top free agent available? And the funniest thing is, he WANTS to play here...he'd rather NOT uproot his family. Yet there is a segment of fans who can't wait to see him run out of town. INSANE
First of all, the Vikings have been wanting to move off the Cousins contract for a couple years now. There's zero disputing that, it's been widely reported, and it's the reason he wasn't signed to an extension prior to this season and why the team decided to let him play the season out. Now he's another year older and coming off a major non contact injury. You can believe in modern medicine all you want, but signing him carries some risk to it on a couple different levels. I like Kirk, but you have to be a realist regarding the situation and not tie ourselves into another large contracts where he and his agent dictate terms. If some other team wants to play ball with him and roll the dice on that kind of deal....good luck to them. At some point the Vikings HAVE TO turn the page at quarterback
The only people that I've seen really talking about his contract are the "fans" that never shut up about his contract. He's been well below top QB money for some time, now, so all the harping about it is officially dunceville. The fact that some people who've cried about Kirk's money will even mention Wilson in the same post is...well, it's a special, gold-plated level of ignorant.
I get it, there's a collective of armchair GMs that are fapping themselves blind over the thought of a young stud QB on a rookie contract. However, I'm here to triple-dog-dare anyone to step into JJ's face and tell him that they think he should risk his productivity, and the team's productivity, because they REALLY want their mock draft to be right for once, and they're willing to move off of a productive, record-setting, proven QB that's known and genuinely treasured by his team to...be right.
Yes, I'm all for drafting the heir apparent...but we KNOW that Kirk, with JJ, Addison, Hock, etc can produce against anyone, including the favored NFCC team this weekend. No college boi has proven that at the NFL level.
So what's your solution then? We bend over for Kirk and his agent like we always do, give him 65 million guaranteed on a two year deal, and what happens if he isn't the same player or gets hurt the first month of the season as his body adjusts to a completely different offseason trying to come back from the achillies (all real possibilities)?
What happens is we won't hear a God damn thing from mouths like you outside of "man, tough luck" when this is a predictable risk currently.
Quote: @minny65 said:
@ jargomcfargo said:
@ CFIAvike said:
People on here are googling “recovery time for an Achilles” and are quoting 12-18 months. When that’s the average time for fat lazy assholes like us who tear our Achilles stepping off the curb wrong.
The 12-18 month recovery time has nothing to do with fat or lazy. It is simply old data.
In the past, the treatment was surgery and then a period of resting before beginning rehab.
The new standard of care is to begin rehab shortly after surgery. This has led to shorter recovery times with better functional outcomes.
BTW, the narrative that Rodgers was going to be playing football in 4 months was a pipe dream.
Actually the articles I have read said recovery to get back to professional athlete status in 12 - 18 months with a likelihood of never getting back to the level. Our own Akers is a case study we can observe. He came back the fastest, I think like 6/7 months and ended up playing like poop. Then he is let go and ends up with us and gets injured again. He will go down as one of the many that never come back even 90%. Now some will say the position matters (RB vs a statue QB) which it might, but Kirk is still going to be affected by that injury no matter what. He is so deliberate in his throwing motion and that will change. Plus Kirk is 36 not 30...big difference in terms of recovery and also our teams investment.
I don't know what article you are referring to. But you certainly are not wrong. It's far more complex than simply setting a time of recovery. Scientific studies show a mean time of what they call, return to play, for professional athletes at just under a year. For the NFL there has been a return to play rate of about 70-80 percent. Maximal functional outcomes usually take about 2 years. The age of the patient, as you mention, is significant.
College football players have better recovery rates than NFL players.
Simply based on the medical, if I were the physician asked by the Wilf's, should I invest 60 million in kirk? I would say it would be very risky!
Having said that, I am a family practitioner and not an orthopedic specialist. And I don't have any knowledge of the specific injury or treatment he received. I won't be surprised if they go a different direction.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ minny65 said:
@ jargomcfargo said:
@ CFIAvike said:
People on here are googling “recovery time for an Achilles” and are quoting 12-18 months. When that’s the average time for fat lazy assholes like us who tear our Achilles stepping off the curb wrong.
The 12-18 month recovery time has nothing to do with fat or lazy. It is simply old data.
In the past, the treatment was surgery and then a period of resting before beginning rehab.
The new standard of care is to begin rehab shortly after surgery. This has led to shorter recovery times with better functional outcomes.
BTW, the narrative that Rodgers was going to be playing football in 4 months was a pipe dream.
Actually the articles I have read said recovery to get back to professional athlete status in 12 - 18 months with a likelihood of never getting back to the level. Our own Akers is a case study we can observe. He came back the fastest, I think like 6/7 months and ended up playing like poop. Then he is let go and ends up with us and gets injured again. He will go down as one of the many that never come back even 90%. Now some will say the position matters (RB vs a statue QB) which it might, but Kirk is still going to be affected by that injury no matter what. He is so deliberate in his throwing motion and that will change. Plus Kirk is 36 not 30...big difference in terms of recovery and also our teams investment.
Yeah, I read that article you posted. It was very nearly journalistic malpractice to not even mention that position plays a bit part in recovery time.
No, I don't think Cousins achilles will be healthy enough to play CB, RB or WR in September. It's why I'm not expecting Cam Akers to be ready. But I think it's more likely a pocket QB will be able to play QB by then.
See how much power you can generate on a throw without your plant foot to drive off of. This notion that his play may not be affected from this injury is either naive or simply dillusional. It was the act of dropping back that led to this popping in the first place, there is plenty of pressure put on that tendon from a pocket passer, especially one that seems to find himself trying to stay upright as defender are trying to rip him down quite often. If he isn't full strength full explosion it will most certainly have a negative affect on his abilities to make the throws required from a pocket passer, probably more so than a guy that has escapabillity skills as Kirk doesn't have the luxury of running around and flipping the ball over out of position defenders that comes from scrambling.
Quote: @Mattyman said:
Nix plays in a gadget offense that's designed to mask his weaknesses (ala throwing to anyone other than his first read). Bo Nix has Marcus Mariota written all over him.
He's similar to Mariota physically , but mentally Nix is way ahead of him.
Nix has better mechanics and fundamentals than MM.
Nix set the NCAA record for pass completion percentage @ 77.4%
And the "Gadget Offense" take doesn't fit .
https://duckswire.usatoday.com/2022/04/0...n-offense/
He’s not mentally ahead of anyone. He set the completion percentage record because Oregon didn’t ask him to do anything but throw screens, run some RPO (with one read), or check down if his first deep read wasn’t open.
He absolutely will not be able to handle the complexity of KOCs offense or any NFL offense for that matter.
see: Marcus Mariota
Let me clear something up out of the gate: the concept of letting Cousins walk and then signing a mid-tier guy like the numerous ones mentioned is essentially a non-starter. Their contract even at $15 million will eat up a lot more cap space then signing Kirk back. This is because we eat the full $28+ million dead cap on Kirk in this scenario. If Kirk is signed back, his cap number even working in the dead cap is way less.
Your only real choices are Kirk or a rookie.
Now that we understand that, it makes it simpler.
Here’s what I would do:
Sign Kirk for 2 years. His cap number will be around $35 million, probably a little less. Remember, since he will be replaced by a rookie on a rookie deal, they can his cap hits out again because that rookie contract is so much less.
To clarify - Kirk Cousins already took a significantly smaller contract for the team in order to win. He was paid like 12 or 14th or something out of the QB’s in the league and he’s better than the majority paid more. He 100% has been a team player and literaly did exactly what Brady did towards the end of his career to help win. Even when everyone was up in arms about his big contract, it ended up being market rate and in the 5-10 range. The feaking out over his contract since he has been here has not been rational.
If you read what he has said, he wants to be back as long as the focus is winning. The guy wants a trophy, it’s why he’s taken less recently and will this time. Just understand, that is still expensive!!!
Ok, let’s talk about moving forward:
Sign Cousins 2 years - around $30 million avg
Sign Hunter for 3 or 4 years around $20 million average
Get JJ’s new contract done, or let him play on his current deal and franchise him if needed when it is done. There is nothing forcing them to do a deal now. Considering where everything is at, I would personally have him play on his current deal with the bit over $14 million cap hit and take your time doing it right. JJ should be a Viking until he’s old.
Draft: If you think there’s a magic QB give up the farm. I don’t think anyone will take it, but whatever. There isn’t a “top 3” QB’s in this draft. There are 6 potential longterm starters that stick out. some will fail, others will rise. Find the one that will rise the highest and get it done.
I would do extensive due diligence on Nix, JJ and Penix and select one with my first pick. Based on my research thus far, I suspect I’d go Nix as he’s stupidly underrated due to false perceptions and lack of understanding of the Ducks offense. This also includes the (first read only nonsense) - if a person bothers to actually watch the tape, you’ll quickly learn this is an absurd claim not based in reality. I scouted Herbert heavily and wanted him badly. Nix is just as good of a prospect based on my evaluation of each.
Nix is the closest QB in this draft to Mahomes. It doesn’t mean he will be, just that when you watch him play at the college level, they are ridiculously similar. Both have great arm talent and excellent scrambling/running capability. Their ability to create is obvious on tape.
JJ would be next for me then Penix. I really like Penix and his talent is top 20, but the injury history cannot be ignored.
There’s your QB of the future. You’ve used 1 pick for him. Ideally you actually add a pick trading down and still getting him.
Done and Done. Every spot on offense is already set save for guard. I’d like to see Risner back, but he’s going to cost a bit more now.
Then focus on defense and we can be a really competitive football team next year.
Quote: @jargomcfargo said:
@ minny65 said:
@ jargomcfargo said:
@ CFIAvike said:
People on here are googling “recovery time for an Achilles” and are quoting 12-18 months. When that’s the average time for fat lazy assholes like us who tear our Achilles stepping off the curb wrong.
The 12-18 month recovery time has nothing to do with fat or lazy. It is simply old data.
In the past, the treatment was surgery and then a period of resting before beginning rehab.
The new standard of care is to begin rehab shortly after surgery. This has led to shorter recovery times with better functional outcomes.
BTW, the narrative that Rodgers was going to be playing football in 4 months was a pipe dream.
Actually the articles I have read said recovery to get back to professional athlete status in 12 - 18 months with a likelihood of never getting back to the level. Our own Akers is a case study we can observe. He came back the fastest, I think like 6/7 months and ended up playing like poop. Then he is let go and ends up with us and gets injured again. He will go down as one of the many that never come back even 90%. Now some will say the position matters (RB vs a statue QB) which it might, but Kirk is still going to be affected by that injury no matter what. He is so deliberate in his throwing motion and that will change. Plus Kirk is 36 not 30...big difference in terms of recovery and also our teams investment.
I don't know what article you are referring to. But you certainly are not wrong. It's far more complex than simply setting a time of recovery. Scientific studies show a mean time of what they call, return to play, for professional athletes at just under a year. For the NFL there has been a return to play rate of about 70-80 percent. Maximal functional outcomes usually take about 2 years. The age of the patient, as you mention, is significant.
College football players have better recovery rates than NFL players.
Simply based on the medical, if I were the physician asked by the Wilf's, should I invest 60 million in kirk? I would say it would be very risky!
Having said that, I am a family practitioner and not an orthopedic specialist. And I don't have any knowledge of the specific injury or treatment he received. I won't be surprised if they go a different direction.
That sounds like medical malpractice because it's not what I want to hear
Can't see Kirk agreeing to any of these 20-30 mil/yr deals that are being kicked around. But off the injury I don't see how he doesn't go to free agency, gaining more time to prove he's healthy.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ minny65 said:
@ jargomcfargo said:
@ CFIAvike said:
People on here are googling “recovery time for an Achilles” and are quoting 12-18 months. When that’s the average time for fat lazy assholes like us who tear our Achilles stepping off the curb wrong.
The 12-18 month recovery time has nothing to do with fat or lazy. It is simply old data.
In the past, the treatment was surgery and then a period of resting before beginning rehab.
The new standard of care is to begin rehab shortly after surgery. This has led to shorter recovery times with better functional outcomes.
BTW, the narrative that Rodgers was going to be playing football in 4 months was a pipe dream.
Actually the articles I have read said recovery to get back to professional athlete status in 12 - 18 months with a likelihood of never getting back to the level. Our own Akers is a case study we can observe. He came back the fastest, I think like 6/7 months and ended up playing like poop. Then he is let go and ends up with us and gets injured again. He will go down as one of the many that never come back even 90%. Now some will say the position matters (RB vs a statue QB) which it might, but Kirk is still going to be affected by that injury no matter what. He is so deliberate in his throwing motion and that will change. Plus Kirk is 36 not 30...big difference in terms of recovery and also our teams investment.
Yeah, I read that article you posted. It was very nearly journalistic malpractice to not even mention that position plays a bit part in recovery time.
No, I don't think Cousins achilles will be healthy enough to play CB, RB or WR in September. It's why I'm not expecting Cam Akers to be ready. But I think it's more likely a pocket QB will be able to play QB by then.
See how much power you can generate on a throw without your plant foot to drive off of. This notion that his play may not be affected from this injury is either naive or simply dillusional. It was the act of dropping back that led to this popping in the first place, there is plenty of pressure put on that tendon from a pocket passer, especially one that seems to find himself trying to stay upright as defender are trying to rip him down quite often. If he isn't full strength full explosion it will most certainly have a negative affect on his abilities to make the throws required from a pocket passer, probably more so than a guy that has escapabillity skills as Kirk doesn't have the luxury of running around and flipping the ball over out of position defenders that comes from scrambling.
No one is saying he's not going to be affected by the injury. Of course he is. I don't care if you're talking about an NFL QB or a pro chess boxer, your performance is going to be affected by an achilles injury until it's fully healed and you've regained full confidence in it.
I'm just saying that timeframe is going to be different for a pocket QB than it is for a RB, CB, WR, etc. And that statement should be obvious and not in the least controversial, but here we are.
You talk about plant foot. Do you have any idea how much more stress is placed onto the plant foot of a RB, CB and WR? Think about that for a bit.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ minny65 said:
@ jargomcfargo said:
@ CFIAvike said:
People on here are googling “recovery time for an Achilles” and are quoting 12-18 months. When that’s the average time for fat lazy assholes like us who tear our Achilles stepping off the curb wrong.
The 12-18 month recovery time has nothing to do with fat or lazy. It is simply old data.
In the past, the treatment was surgery and then a period of resting before beginning rehab.
The new standard of care is to begin rehab shortly after surgery. This has led to shorter recovery times with better functional outcomes.
BTW, the narrative that Rodgers was going to be playing football in 4 months was a pipe dream.
Actually the articles I have read said recovery to get back to professional athlete status in 12 - 18 months with a likelihood of never getting back to the level. Our own Akers is a case study we can observe. He came back the fastest, I think like 6/7 months and ended up playing like poop. Then he is let go and ends up with us and gets injured again. He will go down as one of the many that never come back even 90%. Now some will say the position matters (RB vs a statue QB) which it might, but Kirk is still going to be affected by that injury no matter what. He is so deliberate in his throwing motion and that will change. Plus Kirk is 36 not 30...big difference in terms of recovery and also our teams investment.
Yeah, I read that article you posted. It was very nearly journalistic malpractice to not even mention that position plays a bit part in recovery time.
No, I don't think Cousins achilles will be healthy enough to play CB, RB or WR in September. It's why I'm not expecting Cam Akers to be ready. But I think it's more likely a pocket QB will be able to play QB by then.
See how much power you can generate on a throw without your plant foot to drive off of. This notion that his play may not be affected from this injury is either naive or simply dillusional. It was the act of dropping back that led to this popping in the first place, there is plenty of pressure put on that tendon from a pocket passer, especially one that seems to find himself trying to stay upright as defender are trying to rip him down quite often. If he isn't full strength full explosion it will most certainly have a negative affect on his abilities to make the throws required from a pocket passer, probably more so than a guy that has escapabillity skills as Kirk doesn't have the luxury of running around and flipping the ball over out of position defenders that comes from scrambling.
No one is saying he's not going to be affected by the injury. Of course he is. I don't care if you're talking about an NFL QB or a pro chess boxer, your performance is going to be affected by an achilles injury until it's fully healed and you've regained full confidence in it.
I'm just saying that timeframe is going to be different for a pocket QB than it is for a RB, CB, WR, etc. And that statement should be obvious and not in the least controversial, but here we are.
You talk about plant foot. Do you have any idea how much more stress is placed onto the plant foot of a RB, CB and WR? Think about that for a bit.
How many 36 year old RB, Wrs or DBs are out there recovering from popped Achilles? If Kirk thinks he is worth market money per the PK article... then bye. There is just to much risk vs the reward that he won't come back close to what we saw last year, which still left aspects of the position to be desired, at a cost that made other improvements financially impossible.
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