Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ holmanjp said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AllBS said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
To add some context, I think there is a misunderstanding of what Teddy is worth. His negotiation is going to go one of two ways.
1. The team locks into a shorter term deal to mitigate the teams risk with additional guaranteed money being the trade off for the player. This is the method the Eagles took with Bradford in his 2016 extension.
2. The team offers the player market rate money and term but does not offer a significant signing bonus and reduces guarantees. Usually the player gets competitive roster bonuses with strong language. This method gives the team an easy way out of the deal with the player not being penalized for their injury or poor season. This is the method the Bengals have taken with Andy Dalton to much success.
So what does this mean for Bridgewater? Well, considering the Vikings have historically tried to pay players upfront to avoid kicking anything down the road option #2 has been their pro forma. From Bridgewater's side this makes sense to take money up-front with the opportunity earn market rate and a potential renegotiation down the road. Money wise it would look something like this:
Deal: 5 years $90M with $25M in guaranteed money ($2.5M signing bonus). All roster bonuses due 3 days prior to each new league year. Bridgewaters 2020 salary is 50% guaranteed at the payout of the $6M roster bonus and another 50% guaranteed at the beginning of camp.
2018 - Salary: $12.0M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0M / Cap Hit: $12.5M / Dead Cap: $25M / Cap Savings: ($12.5M)
2019 - Salary: $10.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $4.0M / Cap Hit: $15.0M / Dead Cap: $12.5M / Cap Savings: $2.5M
2020 - Salary: $12M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $6.0M / Cap Hit: $18.5M / Dead Cap: $1.5M / Cap Savings: $17M
2021 - Salary: $19.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $20M / Dead Cap: $1.0M / Cap Savings: $19M
2022 - Salary: $23.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $24M / Dead Cap: $500K / Cap Savings: $23.5M
If you sort through all the contractual junk this is a 2 year deal worth $27.5M. After that you pay as you go with a likely restructure before the 2021 season.
I could get behind a contract like this. But will it be enough by year 3 to make it attractive enough to Teddy's camp to consider. I could see them wanting 20 million at year 3 assuming he's healthy and performing. Basically saying 2 years of injury free starting QB play earns him that.
with the salaries escalating as fast as they are... I have my doubts that this will be enough, but Geoff would know better than any of us what is likely and what is pie in the sky so I would guess this is right.
I really doubt it would be attractive for Bridgewater, too - no offense to Geoff but it looks like a "prove yourself to us" contract. Bridgewater is a young guy full of confidence who thinks he came back from an injury as part of some destiny or god's plan or such. And every QB in this league has watched Kirk Cousins "bet on himself" for two years and he is probably going to come away with a monster contract for it.
Also, it depends on the context. Is this deal offered to Bridgewater with Keenum also signed and the two expected to compete for the starting job? Or are we going to ride Keenum all the way this year but then offer Bridgewater the above deal and let Keenum walk? I can't imagine Bridgewater liking the first option and Keenum's presence would certainly make the offer unappealing. As for letting Keenum leave, that's very risky.
I think our best bet is to keep Bridgewater out of games if at all possible. Put Sloter in if we need mop-up late in a game. Leave Bridgewater completely un-demonstrated to other teams and let our coaches and doctors evaluate his health and development privately. Then other teams will hesitate to sign Bridgewater, and we can give him a short-term deal at lower cost.
if you sand bag Teddy he will be gone for sure. play him straight and he might be willing to play nice. other teams will see right through any attempts to hide his abilities and will be bringing him in for their own meetings and workouts if we let him get to FA. Hell is Sloter even active since Teddy came back?
You think other teams are going to be lined up to sign Ted if he doesn't play this year?
I get the fan favorite part of believing that. Same thing was said about letting Peterson hit the market.
I'm not up to speed on the tolling contract thing.
Would it not be in the Vikings best interest to go that route?
If they can toll him, they absolutely should. It seems like the Vikings have quit talking about tolling, so I don't know if they are just keeping quiet or they decided Bridgewater and the NFLPA would drag them into court over it. I think they are going to see if they NEED to play him this year, and maybe toll him if he never sees the field.
I think there are fans who can't imagine the Vikings doing anything which might not be loving and nurturing for Teddy, but they have to be smart. I'm not saying that you keep Bridgewater off the field if Keenum gets hurt or falls apart, but we don't need to craft opportunities for him to showcase his abilities, either.
if you want to keep him ... yes you consider how he will react to something like tolling him. WTF difference does a few million mean to us anyway... its not our money. play nice and respectful and hopefully you get that in return. no matter what if they try and toll him it will get challenged by the nflpa, why even go down that road?
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ holmanjp said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AllBS said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
To add some context, I think there is a misunderstanding of what Teddy is worth. His negotiation is going to go one of two ways.
1. The team locks into a shorter term deal to mitigate the teams risk with additional guaranteed money being the trade off for the player. This is the method the Eagles took with Bradford in his 2016 extension.
2. The team offers the player market rate money and term but does not offer a significant signing bonus and reduces guarantees. Usually the player gets competitive roster bonuses with strong language. This method gives the team an easy way out of the deal with the player not being penalized for their injury or poor season. This is the method the Bengals have taken with Andy Dalton to much success.
So what does this mean for Bridgewater? Well, considering the Vikings have historically tried to pay players upfront to avoid kicking anything down the road option #2 has been their pro forma. From Bridgewater's side this makes sense to take money up-front with the opportunity earn market rate and a potential renegotiation down the road. Money wise it would look something like this:
Deal: 5 years $90M with $25M in guaranteed money ($2.5M signing bonus). All roster bonuses due 3 days prior to each new league year. Bridgewaters 2020 salary is 50% guaranteed at the payout of the $6M roster bonus and another 50% guaranteed at the beginning of camp.
2018 - Salary: $12.0M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0M / Cap Hit: $12.5M / Dead Cap: $25M / Cap Savings: ($12.5M)
2019 - Salary: $10.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $4.0M / Cap Hit: $15.0M / Dead Cap: $12.5M / Cap Savings: $2.5M
2020 - Salary: $12M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $6.0M / Cap Hit: $18.5M / Dead Cap: $1.5M / Cap Savings: $17M
2021 - Salary: $19.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $20M / Dead Cap: $1.0M / Cap Savings: $19M
2022 - Salary: $23.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $24M / Dead Cap: $500K / Cap Savings: $23.5M
If you sort through all the contractual junk this is a 2 year deal worth $27.5M. After that you pay as you go with a likely restructure before the 2021 season.
I could get behind a contract like this. But will it be enough by year 3 to make it attractive enough to Teddy's camp to consider. I could see them wanting 20 million at year 3 assuming he's healthy and performing. Basically saying 2 years of injury free starting QB play earns him that.
with the salaries escalating as fast as they are... I have my doubts that this will be enough, but Geoff would know better than any of us what is likely and what is pie in the sky so I would guess this is right.
I really doubt it would be attractive for Bridgewater, too - no offense to Geoff but it looks like a "prove yourself to us" contract. Bridgewater is a young guy full of confidence who thinks he came back from an injury as part of some destiny or god's plan or such. And every QB in this league has watched Kirk Cousins "bet on himself" for two years and he is probably going to come away with a monster contract for it.
Also, it depends on the context. Is this deal offered to Bridgewater with Keenum also signed and the two expected to compete for the starting job? Or are we going to ride Keenum all the way this year but then offer Bridgewater the above deal and let Keenum walk? I can't imagine Bridgewater liking the first option and Keenum's presence would certainly make the offer unappealing. As for letting Keenum leave, that's very risky.
I think our best bet is to keep Bridgewater out of games if at all possible. Put Sloter in if we need mop-up late in a game. Leave Bridgewater completely un-demonstrated to other teams and let our coaches and doctors evaluate his health and development privately. Then other teams will hesitate to sign Bridgewater, and we can give him a short-term deal at lower cost.
if you sand bag Teddy he will be gone for sure. play him straight and he might be willing to play nice. other teams will see right through any attempts to hide his abilities and will be bringing him in for their own meetings and workouts if we let him get to FA. Hell is Sloter even active since Teddy came back?
You think other teams are going to be lined up to sign Ted if he doesn't play this year?
I get the fan favorite part of believing that. Same thing was said about letting Peterson hit the market.
I'm not up to speed on the tolling contract thing.
Would it not be in the Vikings best interest to go that route?
If they can toll him, they absolutely should. It seems like the Vikings have quit talking about tolling, so I don't know if they are just keeping quiet or they decided Bridgewater and the NFLPA would drag them into court over it. I think they are going to see if they NEED to play him this year, and maybe toll him if he never sees the field.
I think there are fans who can't imagine the Vikings doing anything which might not be loving and nurturing for Teddy, but they have to be smart. I'm not saying that you keep Bridgewater off the field if Keenum gets hurt or falls apart, but we don't need to craft opportunities for him to showcase his abilities, either.
There is subjective language in the leagues by-laws that infers you could not toll Teddy's contact if he could physically perform at the first instance of being able to be taken off the PUP list. In that case since Teddy was able to be removed from the list immediately his contract would not toll. The CBA suggests otherwise, which means the Vikings could still make its argument. But I believe its somewhat unlikely his contract would toll at this point.
As for you second point, getting Bridgewater on the field also helps you decide what to do with Case Keenum after this season. Keenum will obviously get a raise from his current deal, but how high would you feel comfortable going? Bridgewater's ability likely has an indirect impact on the answer to that question.
Sign ARod,Cousins or Brees. This team is ready to win now!! And trade all your picks to get Mayfield
Geoff you have any thoughts on Bradford?
Could he look for a deal with prove it incentives.
Sign with another team ?
Or just retire?
Quote: @Norse said:
Geoff you have any thoughts on Bradford?
Could he look for a deal with prove it incentives.
Sign with another team ?
Or just retire?
Sadly, all of those are on the table. The thoughts that his current knee issue will force him to retire is probably exaggerated. But for a 30 year old who has made roughly $114M in his career thus far, life after football at least has to be a consideration. But NFL players are wired a little differently so thinking logically doesn't always work.
The only way I see Sam returning to MN is if something unexpected happens and Bridgewater finds his way to free agency and is going to command a contract the Vikings aren't comfortable with. At that point I could see them giving Bradford a short-term deal with incentives while also bringing Keenum back. Otherwise more likely I could see him getting a shot in Arizona or Denver since they're trying to win now and will be on the lookout for QB upgrades.
I would rather see Teddy move on and have a mediocre career some place else and we get a QB in FA that will win NOW and draft the next Tom Brady. As a business man I would not want to invest all that money in Teddy for 2 reasons A) he is nothing great, has potential but that was almost 2 years ago and B) that injury would scare the crap out of me to pay a lot of money long term.
I would pass.
With Bradford and Teddy gone, we would have money to sign up a lot if not all the big names long term and sign a big name QB
Quote: @Sir Viking Bob VWO said:
I would rather see Teddy move on and have a mediocre career some place else and we get a QB in FA that will win NOW and draft the next Tom Brady. As a business man I would not want to invest all that money in Teddy for 2 reasons A) he is nothing great, has potential but that was almost 2 years ago and B) that injury would scare the crap out of me to pay a lot of money long term.
I would pass.
With Bradford and Teddy gone, we would have money to sign up a lot if not all the big names long term and sign a big name QB
nope, Teddy knows this offense. I dont want another learning curve year while a FA gets up to speed next year. hell Brees might only have another year or two left in him. Cousins is what Cousins is... he is a nice QB but not one I would back the brinks truck up for like somebody will. and the draft is such a crap shoot, why risk the immediate future on the draft.
Teddy was showing some very good signs of improvement and there is no reason to think that he isnt still on that trajectory. Hell, Case could clean up his flaws and maybe turn into something more, Gannon wasnt shit until much later in his career.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Norse said:
Geoff you have any thoughts on Bradford?
Could he look for a deal with prove it incentives.
Sign with another team ?
Or just retire?
Sadly, all of those are on the table. The thoughts that his current knee issue will force him to retire is probably exaggerated. But for a 30 year old who has made roughly $114M in his career thus far, life after football at least has to be a consideration. But NFL players are wired a little differently so thinking logically doesn't always work.
The only way I see Sam returning to MN is if something unexpected happens and Bridgewater finds his way to free agency and is going to command a contract the Vikings aren't comfortable with. At that point I could see them giving Bradford a short-term deal with incentives while also bringing Keenum back. Otherwise more likely I could see him getting a shot in Arizona or Denver since they're trying to win now and will be on the lookout for QB upgrades. @"Geoff Nichols", have you heard anything out of the organization in regards to Sloter? Are the Vikings impressed by him? Is there any chance he could play next year (not meaning as a starter necessarily), or is he still a year or two away from possibly seeing the field?
Quote: @Sir Viking Bob VWO said:
I would rather see Teddy move on and have a mediocre career some place else and we get a QB in FA that will win NOW and draft the next Tom Brady. As a business man I would not want to invest all that money in Teddy for 2 reasons A) he is nothing great, has potential but that was almost 2 years ago and B) that injury would scare the crap out of me to pay a lot of money long term.
I would pass.
With Bradford and Teddy gone, we would have money to sign up a lot if not all the big names long term and sign a big name QB
I'm with you Bob.
You never know about the knees.
How long before the other one goes?
I'm not saying get rid of him completely, just leery about long term contract.
I would love to see some kind of descent for both party's prove it deal. Heavily intensive based to make
Ted a boat load if he is truly able to finish a whole season.
I don't know the legality of it.
3 mill base
90%/95% of the snaps. = 10 Mil
65% completion or whatever top 10 average is = 3 mill
7 yards per attempt or what ever top 10 average is = 3 mill
yada yada yada
If you want to make top 10 $ you better be able to produce top 10 numbers
This is not exactly how it would be, but something along those lines.
Then something that would allow Viking an easy out if they want/need, or continue with an already agreed upon
yearly salary's after the first year.
Quote: @holmanjp said:
@ Sir Viking Bob VWO said:
I would rather see Teddy move on and have a mediocre career some place else and we get a QB in FA that will win NOW and draft the next Tom Brady. As a business man I would not want to invest all that money in Teddy for 2 reasons A) he is nothing great, has potential but that was almost 2 years ago and B) that injury would scare the crap out of me to pay a lot of money long term.
I would pass.
With Bradford and Teddy gone, we would have money to sign up a lot if not all the big names long term and sign a big name QB
I'm with you Bob.
You never know about the knees.
How long before the other one goes?
I'm not saying get rid of him completely, just leery about long term contract.
I would love to see some kind of descent for both party's prove it deal. Heavily intensive based to make
Ted a boat load if he is truly able to finish a whole season.
I don't know the legality of it.
3 mill base
90%/95% of the snaps. = 10 Mil
65% completion or whatever top 10 average is = 3 mill
7 yards per attempt or what ever top 10 average is = 3 mill
yada yada yada
If you want to make top 10 $ you better be able to produce top 10 numbers
This is not exactly how it would be, but something along those lines.
Then something that would allow Viking an easy out if they want/need, or continue with an already agreed upon
yearly salary's after the first year.
where were you on extending Sam? his knees were very much as questionable as Teddys will be going forward.
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