Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
How does Hockenson blowing out his knee indite the front office? Would it be ok if he wasn't one of the highest paid TEs in the league? Just giving you are hard time to be honest, don't take that too seriously.
But I think the answer is somewhat in the middle between your take and Havoc's. There is something to be said about tearing it down to the ground. The risk in doing that is you are 100% reliant on your ability to draft and re-build culture. Ultimately it is easier said than done. On the flip side the "competitive rebuild" is tough since you're trying to ultimately turn things over through mediocrity. While that didn't show through on the field this past season, they actually have accomplished a "rebuild" without tearing it down. They just don't have a top 3-5 pick to show for it.
When you rebuild you ultimately achieve two things at one. 1: High draft pick(s) and 2: Financial freedom. From there you need to fill your premium positions QB, WR, OTs, EDGE, CB, and DT. The Vikings don't possess #1 but do have #2 at this point. They can opt to re-sign Kirk or move up for a QB. If they move up they can draft and EDGE or CB early in the 1st. Flip it around and they trade up for a QB, you can likely sign an EDGE rusher and DT if you so choose. Then come 2025 you have even more money available. My take is, this is the off-season it all begins to either go up or down for this FO/coaching staff. Its a different approach to roster rebuilding regardless of the Wilf's involvement/asks. But they aren't completely treading water either. Something is about to happen.
I understood the Hock trade at the time, but it was certainly questionable when the Lions got out of having to pay him top dollar and simply took advantage of an extremely deep TE draft crop that landed them LaPorta on a rookie deal. I still contend the Lions are playing chess while the Vikings are playing checkers and the results speak for themselves. But I was moreso just adding the Hock injury to our long list of issues heading into next season and who replaces that production until he returns.
But I do concur on the importance of this offseason. To me, it's the difference between competing within the division or being cellar dwellers the next couple years. Unfortunately my confidence in the front office navigating all this is shaky at best
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ Kentis said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Kentis said:
Oh come on Supra, you asked for it you got it…  B) & dude what’s w/ all the gay inuendo??
Well you tell me, you and Sticky getting, well....sticky with each other? Couldn't tell from this thread
There you go again, guess you can’t control your urges, keep spreading the fairy dust… to each their own.
Oh come on, your just "beating a dead horse" now, maybe more... :p
![[Image: e57bz5c4y29x.jpeg]](https://vikefans.com/vfforums/uploads/editor/pe/e57bz5c4y29x.jpeg)
Quote: @Kentis said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Kentis said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Kentis said:
Oh come on Supra, you asked for it you got it… B) & dude what’s w/ all the gay inuendo??
Well you tell me, you and Sticky getting, well....sticky with each other? Couldn't tell from this thread
There you go again, guess you can’t control your urges, keep spreading the fairy dust… to each their own.
Oh come on, your just "beating a dead horse" now, maybe more... :p
Yall need to find some new analogies before somebody calls PETA on us.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Havoc1649 said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend.
But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...
Just curious, what's your view of the draft two years ago when the Vikes traded back with both the Lions and Packers? How about the draft picks of Cine and Booth, and your overall feelings of Kwesi? I'm not sure anyone has heard your view points on these topics yet. B)
It's just pointing out the contrast between the two philosophies and we have two organizations within the same division who hit the reset buttons on new front offices at the same time, so you can make a valid comparison. If you are asking me today, which organization did things the wisest and which situation and resources I'd rather have...it would be the Bears all day long. I say this knowing Kwesi has all but been saddled with the competitive mandates of the Wilfs, so you can't blame him completely
Because blowing it up is the key to winning Super Bowls right? Remind me, when did the Chiefs and 49ers do that to have a championship team?
We went 13-4 year one. Our defense got better throughout this year and had Cousins not been injured, we were a SuperBowl contender. We beat the 49ers and were right there with the Chiefs - and this was before our defense improved.
The fact is we carried $46,000,000+ in dead cap this year - which is a rebuild of finances. Even with that, we had a good chance with a healthy Cousins.
If the front office is smart with the money, we can be competitive for a title this year if Cousins is back to himself. The defense is improving. The offense will be little different and has been effective for years. I can’t imagine another year with the same offensive system (that has already won a title) is going to hurt.
Respectfully, doing it the Bears way sounds great now, but they have to hit on nearly every pick to turn it around. That was starting with a team that had already taken 2 top 10 QB’s (pick 10 & 2) in the past couple of years prior to the new leadership. Now they’ll likely go top 10 QB again and pray he’s the answer to a Super Bowl before they are fired. Picks are always awesome and so so smart until they don’t pan out.
I’ll take competitive every year and I have little time for a coach or GM not focused on the same thing. If they are good woth the picks they already have, there should never be a need for such a plan.
The Chiefs hit on Mahomes, and the 49ers haven't had to because Mr Irrelevant has masked their total failure in Trey Lance. Both of those teams have been extremely fortunate and it's not close to the situation the Vikings have been in the last few years, which has been mediocrity and fiddle fucking around on short term deals with Cousins because although they would have liked to move in a different direction, they haven't had any better options. I don't care about 13-4 with a record number of single score victories and losing at home to the Giants on wild card weekend. The reality is our record over the last four seasons is 35-32 with the one playoff appearance losing to the Giants. Thats the definition of mediocrity, so don't tell me what we've been doing has been working while the other teams in the division have all torn it down and rebuilt their rosters with smart trades and smart drafting. I still contend we might have been better off to rebuild this thing when the new front office took over two years ago instead of treading water going nowhere, but oh no....not the Wilfs. Now here we sit with the other teams in the division lapping us, no long term answer at quarterback, and a roster that needs upgrades along both lines, zero running game, the highest paid TE in the league who will miss half of next season on IR and perhaps missing our best player on defense (Hunter). This front office needs to pull their heads out of their asses and make some real moves this offseason and I don't mean Lewis Cine type moves either.
How does Hockenson blowing out his knee indite the front office? Would it be ok if he wasn't one of the highest paid TEs in the league? Just giving you are hard time to be honest, don't take that too seriously.
But I think the answer is somewhat in the middle between your take and Havoc's. There is something to be said about tearing it down to the ground. The risk in doing that is you are 100% reliant on your ability to draft and re-build culture. Ultimately it is easier said than done. On the flip side the "competitive rebuild" is tough since you're trying to ultimately turn things over through mediocrity. While that didn't show through on the field this past season, they actually have accomplished a "rebuild" without tearing it down. They just don't have a top 3-5 pick to show for it.
When you rebuild you ultimately achieve two things at one. 1: High draft pick(s) and 2: Financial freedom. From there you need to fill your premium positions QB, WR, OTs, EDGE, CB, and DT. The Vikings don't possess #1 but do have #2 at this point. They can opt to re-sign Kirk or move up for a QB. If they move up they can draft and EDGE or CB early in the 1st. Flip it around and they trade up for a QB, you can likely sign an EDGE rusher and DT if you so choose. Then come 2025 you have even more money available. My take is, this is the off-season it all begins to either go up or down for this FO/coaching staff. Its a different approach to roster rebuilding regardless of the Wilf's involvement/asks. But they aren't completely treading water either. Something is about to happen.
Agreed,
Many here have been saying for a long time now that this is the most important off-season in recent memory. All just a couple weeks away now.
Buckle-up, not for the faint of heart...
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Kentis said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Kentis said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Kentis said:
Oh come on Supra, you asked for it you got it… B) & dude what’s w/ all the gay inuendo??
Well you tell me, you and Sticky getting, well....sticky with each other? Couldn't tell from this thread
There you go again, guess you can’t control your urges, keep spreading the fairy dust… to each their own.
Oh come on, your just "beating a dead horse" now, maybe more... :p
Yall need to find some new analogies before somebody calls PETA on us.
![[Image: 54rw6evp16xv.jpeg]](https://vikefans.com/vfforums/uploads/editor/l7/54rw6evp16xv.jpeg)
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Havoc1649 said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend.
But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...
Just curious, what's your view of the draft two years ago when the Vikes traded back with both the Lions and Packers? How about the draft picks of Cine and Booth, and your overall feelings of Kwesi? I'm not sure anyone has heard your view points on these topics yet. B)
It's just pointing out the contrast between the two philosophies and we have two organizations within the same division who hit the reset buttons on new front offices at the same time, so you can make a valid comparison. If you are asking me today, which organization did things the wisest and which situation and resources I'd rather have...it would be the Bears all day long. I say this knowing Kwesi has all but been saddled with the competitive mandates of the Wilfs, so you can't blame him completely
Because blowing it up is the key to winning Super Bowls right? Remind me, when did the Chiefs and 49ers do that to have a championship team?
We went 13-4 year one. Our defense got better throughout this year and had Cousins not been injured, we were a SuperBowl contender. We beat the 49ers and were right there with the Chiefs - and this was before our defense improved.
The fact is we carried $46,000,000+ in dead cap this year - which is a rebuild of finances. Even with that, we had a good chance with a healthy Cousins.
If the front office is smart with the money, we can be competitive for a title this year if Cousins is back to himself. The defense is improving. The offense will be little different and has been effective for years. I can’t imagine another year with the same offensive system (that has already won a title) is going to hurt.
Respectfully, doing it the Bears way sounds great now, but they have to hit on nearly every pick to turn it around. That was starting with a team that had already taken 2 top 10 QB’s (pick 10 & 2) in the past couple of years prior to the new leadership. Now they’ll likely go top 10 QB again and pray he’s the answer to a Super Bowl before they are fired. Picks are always awesome and so so smart until they don’t pan out.
I’ll take competitive every year and I have little time for a coach or GM not focused on the same thing. If they are good woth the picks they already have, there should never be a need for such a plan.
The Chiefs hit on Mahomes, and the 49ers haven't had to because Mr Irrelevant has masked their total failure in Trey Lance. Both of those teams have been extremely fortunate and it's not close to the situation the Vikings have been in the last few years, which has been mediocrity and fiddle fucking around on short term deals with Cousins because although they would have liked to move in a different direction, they haven't had any better options. I don't care about 13-4 with a record number of single score victories and losing at home to the Giants on wild card weekend. The reality is our record over the last four seasons is 35-32 with the one playoff appearance losing to the Giants. Thats the definition of mediocrity, so don't tell me what we've been doing has been working while the other teams in the division have all torn it down and rebuilt their rosters with smart trades and smart drafting. I still contend we might have been better off to rebuild this thing when the new front office took over two years ago instead of treading water going nowhere, but oh no....not the Wilfs. Now here we sit with the other teams in the division lapping us, no long term answer at quarterback, and a roster that needs upgrades along both lines, zero running game, the highest paid TE in the league who will miss half of next season on IR and perhaps missing our best player on defense (Hunter). This front office needs to pull their heads out of their asses and make some real moves this offseason and I don't mean Lewis Cine type moves either.
How does Hockenson blowing out his knee indite the front office? Would it be ok if he wasn't one of the highest paid TEs in the league? Just giving you are hard time to be honest, don't take that too seriously.
But I think the answer is somewhat in the middle between your take and Havoc's. There is something to be said about tearing it down to the ground. The risk in doing that is you are 100% reliant on your ability to draft and re-build culture. Ultimately it is easier said than done. On the flip side the "competitive rebuild" is tough since you're trying to ultimately turn things over through mediocrity. While that didn't show through on the field this past season, they actually have accomplished a "rebuild" without tearing it down. They just don't have a top 3-5 pick to show for it.
When you rebuild you ultimately achieve two things at one. 1: High draft pick(s) and 2: Financial freedom. From there you need to fill your premium positions QB, WR, OTs, EDGE, CB, and DT. The Vikings don't possess #1 but do have #2 at this point. They can opt to re-sign Kirk or move up for a QB. If they move up they can draft and EDGE or CB early in the 1st. Flip it around and they trade up for a QB, you can likely sign an EDGE rusher and DT if you so choose. Then come 2025 you have even more money available. My take is, this is the off-season it all begins to either go up or down for this FO/coaching staff. It’s a different approach to roster rebuilding regardless of the Wilf's involvement/asks. But they aren't completely treading water either. Something is about to happen.
So Geoff, are you saying that they will pick a qb in round one for sure if Kirk isn’t back?
Quote: @smleh said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Havoc1649 said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend.
But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...
Just curious, what's your view of the draft two years ago when the Vikes traded back with both the Lions and Packers? How about the draft picks of Cine and Booth, and your overall feelings of Kwesi? I'm not sure anyone has heard your view points on these topics yet. B)
It's just pointing out the contrast between the two philosophies and we have two organizations within the same division who hit the reset buttons on new front offices at the same time, so you can make a valid comparison. If you are asking me today, which organization did things the wisest and which situation and resources I'd rather have...it would be the Bears all day long. I say this knowing Kwesi has all but been saddled with the competitive mandates of the Wilfs, so you can't blame him completely
Because blowing it up is the key to winning Super Bowls right? Remind me, when did the Chiefs and 49ers do that to have a championship team?
We went 13-4 year one. Our defense got better throughout this year and had Cousins not been injured, we were a SuperBowl contender. We beat the 49ers and were right there with the Chiefs - and this was before our defense improved.
The fact is we carried $46,000,000+ in dead cap this year - which is a rebuild of finances. Even with that, we had a good chance with a healthy Cousins.
If the front office is smart with the money, we can be competitive for a title this year if Cousins is back to himself. The defense is improving. The offense will be little different and has been effective for years. I can’t imagine another year with the same offensive system (that has already won a title) is going to hurt.
Respectfully, doing it the Bears way sounds great now, but they have to hit on nearly every pick to turn it around. That was starting with a team that had already taken 2 top 10 QB’s (pick 10 & 2) in the past couple of years prior to the new leadership. Now they’ll likely go top 10 QB again and pray he’s the answer to a Super Bowl before they are fired. Picks are always awesome and so so smart until they don’t pan out.
I’ll take competitive every year and I have little time for a coach or GM not focused on the same thing. If they are good woth the picks they already have, there should never be a need for such a plan.
The Chiefs hit on Mahomes, and the 49ers haven't had to because Mr Irrelevant has masked their total failure in Trey Lance. Both of those teams have been extremely fortunate and it's not close to the situation the Vikings have been in the last few years, which has been mediocrity and fiddle fucking around on short term deals with Cousins because although they would have liked to move in a different direction, they haven't had any better options. I don't care about 13-4 with a record number of single score victories and losing at home to the Giants on wild card weekend. The reality is our record over the last four seasons is 35-32 with the one playoff appearance losing to the Giants. Thats the definition of mediocrity, so don't tell me what we've been doing has been working while the other teams in the division have all torn it down and rebuilt their rosters with smart trades and smart drafting. I still contend we might have been better off to rebuild this thing when the new front office took over two years ago instead of treading water going nowhere, but oh no....not the Wilfs. Now here we sit with the other teams in the division lapping us, no long term answer at quarterback, and a roster that needs upgrades along both lines, zero running game, the highest paid TE in the league who will miss half of next season on IR and perhaps missing our best player on defense (Hunter). This front office needs to pull their heads out of their asses and make some real moves this offseason and I don't mean Lewis Cine type moves either.
How does Hockenson blowing out his knee indite the front office? Would it be ok if he wasn't one of the highest paid TEs in the league? Just giving you are hard time to be honest, don't take that too seriously.
But I think the answer is somewhat in the middle between your take and Havoc's. There is something to be said about tearing it down to the ground. The risk in doing that is you are 100% reliant on your ability to draft and re-build culture. Ultimately it is easier said than done. On the flip side the "competitive rebuild" is tough since you're trying to ultimately turn things over through mediocrity. While that didn't show through on the field this past season, they actually have accomplished a "rebuild" without tearing it down. They just don't have a top 3-5 pick to show for it.
When you rebuild you ultimately achieve two things at one. 1: High draft pick(s) and 2: Financial freedom. From there you need to fill your premium positions QB, WR, OTs, EDGE, CB, and DT. The Vikings don't possess #1 but do have #2 at this point. They can opt to re-sign Kirk or move up for a QB. If they move up they can draft and EDGE or CB early in the 1st. Flip it around and they trade up for a QB, you can likely sign an EDGE rusher and DT if you so choose. Then come 2025 you have even more money available. My take is, this is the off-season it all begins to either go up or down for this FO/coaching staff. It’s a different approach to roster rebuilding regardless of the Wilf's involvement/asks. But they aren't completely treading water either. Something is about to happen.
So Geoff, are you saying that they will pick a qb in round one for sure if Kirk isn’t back?
I don’t think there’s any way that anyone could say that
with certainty. Unless they’re feeling
very desperate and will sell out hard to get one, you are at the mercy of the teams
in front of you and there’s a lot of QB needy teams in front of us. A lot of Mocks are suggesting the top 3 QBs
go 1,2,3, so not even available for trade.
I think the real question would be “Are the NFL teams not as settled on
those top 3 QBs?” and “How much are the Vikings willing to reach to ensure they
end up with a QB.
If there’s no Kirk and no qb in round one, good luck with that. The Sam Darnold Nick Mullens show will be so exciting.
Quote: @smleh said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Havoc1649 said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend.
But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...
Just curious, what's your view of the draft two years ago when the Vikes traded back with both the Lions and Packers? How about the draft picks of Cine and Booth, and your overall feelings of Kwesi? I'm not sure anyone has heard your view points on these topics yet. B)
It's just pointing out the contrast between the two philosophies and we have two organizations within the same division who hit the reset buttons on new front offices at the same time, so you can make a valid comparison. If you are asking me today, which organization did things the wisest and which situation and resources I'd rather have...it would be the Bears all day long. I say this knowing Kwesi has all but been saddled with the competitive mandates of the Wilfs, so you can't blame him completely
Because blowing it up is the key to winning Super Bowls right? Remind me, when did the Chiefs and 49ers do that to have a championship team?
We went 13-4 year one. Our defense got better throughout this year and had Cousins not been injured, we were a SuperBowl contender. We beat the 49ers and were right there with the Chiefs - and this was before our defense improved.
The fact is we carried $46,000,000+ in dead cap this year - which is a rebuild of finances. Even with that, we had a good chance with a healthy Cousins.
If the front office is smart with the money, we can be competitive for a title this year if Cousins is back to himself. The defense is improving. The offense will be little different and has been effective for years. I can’t imagine another year with the same offensive system (that has already won a title) is going to hurt.
Respectfully, doing it the Bears way sounds great now, but they have to hit on nearly every pick to turn it around. That was starting with a team that had already taken 2 top 10 QB’s (pick 10 & 2) in the past couple of years prior to the new leadership. Now they’ll likely go top 10 QB again and pray he’s the answer to a Super Bowl before they are fired. Picks are always awesome and so so smart until they don’t pan out.
I’ll take competitive every year and I have little time for a coach or GM not focused on the same thing. If they are good woth the picks they already have, there should never be a need for such a plan.
The Chiefs hit on Mahomes, and the 49ers haven't had to because Mr Irrelevant has masked their total failure in Trey Lance. Both of those teams have been extremely fortunate and it's not close to the situation the Vikings have been in the last few years, which has been mediocrity and fiddle fucking around on short term deals with Cousins because although they would have liked to move in a different direction, they haven't had any better options. I don't care about 13-4 with a record number of single score victories and losing at home to the Giants on wild card weekend. The reality is our record over the last four seasons is 35-32 with the one playoff appearance losing to the Giants. Thats the definition of mediocrity, so don't tell me what we've been doing has been working while the other teams in the division have all torn it down and rebuilt their rosters with smart trades and smart drafting. I still contend we might have been better off to rebuild this thing when the new front office took over two years ago instead of treading water going nowhere, but oh no....not the Wilfs. Now here we sit with the other teams in the division lapping us, no long term answer at quarterback, and a roster that needs upgrades along both lines, zero running game, the highest paid TE in the league who will miss half of next season on IR and perhaps missing our best player on defense (Hunter). This front office needs to pull their heads out of their asses and make some real moves this offseason and I don't mean Lewis Cine type moves either.
How does Hockenson blowing out his knee indite the front office? Would it be ok if he wasn't one of the highest paid TEs in the league? Just giving you are hard time to be honest, don't take that too seriously.
But I think the answer is somewhat in the middle between your take and Havoc's. There is something to be said about tearing it down to the ground. The risk in doing that is you are 100% reliant on your ability to draft and re-build culture. Ultimately it is easier said than done. On the flip side the "competitive rebuild" is tough since you're trying to ultimately turn things over through mediocrity. While that didn't show through on the field this past season, they actually have accomplished a "rebuild" without tearing it down. They just don't have a top 3-5 pick to show for it.
When you rebuild you ultimately achieve two things at one. 1: High draft pick(s) and 2: Financial freedom. From there you need to fill your premium positions QB, WR, OTs, EDGE, CB, and DT. The Vikings don't possess #1 but do have #2 at this point. They can opt to re-sign Kirk or move up for a QB. If they move up they can draft and EDGE or CB early in the 1st. Flip it around and they trade up for a QB, you can likely sign an EDGE rusher and DT if you so choose. Then come 2025 you have even more money available. My take is, this is the off-season it all begins to either go up or down for this FO/coaching staff. It’s a different approach to roster rebuilding regardless of the Wilf's involvement/asks. But they aren't completely treading water either. Something is about to happen.
So Geoff, are you saying that they will pick a qb in round one for sure if Kirk isn’t back?
I don't think they'd pick a QB just for the point of picking a QB. It would need to be someone they believe in. Obviously I think it would increase the odds. But there is a pathway where they run it back with a stop-gap QB or trade for someone not publicly available.
On luck: KC identified the guy they wanted, traded up for him, and turned out they were right. Of course, there is still some luck there. If they really knew what Mahomes was going to be, they would have traded all the way up to number 1. A little lucky.
Detroit? They charged the Rams a 1st rounder to take Goff. He was thought to be at best a bridge QB and at worst a salary cap hit. He has turned out to be a legit starting QB. They definitely hit on a bunch of draft picks. But if Goff had sucked, the Lions would still suck.
Chicago? They took Carolina's first round pick so Carolina could get Bryce Young. Nobody thought that would turn into the number 1 overall pick. That is pretty lucky. Maybe Caleb Williams becomes the next Mahomes. But if he becomes the next bust, Chicago will suck for years to come.
SF blew it with Lance and then totally lucked out with Purdy. Even Philly (Hurts in the 2d), Dallas (Prescott in the 4th), and Seattle (Wilson in the 3rd) got lucky. Of course, none of this compares to the luckiest pick of all time: Tom Brady in the 6th. So, yeah, luck is a factor in building a team.
Lots of people criticize the Vikings' competitive rebuild. But there is no guaranteed way to build a SB Champion. The Vikings have been everything from terrible to very good in their history. The one thing they have never been is SB Champs. The Browns sucked for years while trying to build a SB team. Then they traded a ton to Houston and signed a tainted Watson to a huge deal. Still no SB Ring. In Cleveland, the SB is still a hope and a dream. But the dreadful years they and their fans went through are totally real and were totally miserable. The Dolphins tore everything down to rebuild and now have a nice team. Houston traded away Hopkins and Watt and Watson. They were horrible. Now they have their franchise QB. Unfortunately, the Texans, Dolphins, and Browns built their SB teams during the Mahomes era. And they also have to deal with Burrow, Josh Allen, and now Justin Herbert with a real coach. Unlucky.
The SB dream is always out there. But there is no proven formula. So maybe it is best to enjoy the seasons we have. And you can't do that when your team really sucks.
|
