Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
You can do this with just about every position. Check the WRs taken in the 1st round in the last 10 drafts....
2012 - Justin Blackmon, Michael Floyd, Kendall Wright, AJ Jenkins
2013 - Tavon Austin, Deandre Hopkins, Cordarrelle Patterson
2014 - Sammy Watkins, Mike Evans, OBJ, Brandon Cooks, Kelvin Benjamin
2015 - Amari Cooper, Kevin White, DeVante Parker, Nelson Agholor, Breshad Perriman, Phillip Dorsett
2016 - Corey Coleman, Will Fuller, Josh Doctson, Laquon Treadwell
2017 - Corey Davis, Mike Williams, John Ross
2018 - DJ Moore, Calvin Ridley
2019 - Marquise Brown, N'Keal Harry
2020 - Henry Ruggs, Jerry Jeudy, CeeDee Lamb, Jalen Reagor, JJ, Brandon Aiyuk
2021 - Ja'Mar Chase, Jaylen Waddle, DeVonta Smith, Kadarius Toney, Rashod Bateman
There are 40 names here. How many have given their team 1st round value? 7 maybe? 8?
DeAndre Hopkins, Cordarelle Patterson, Mike Evans, OBJ, Amari Cooper, DJ Moore, Calvin Ridley, Ceedee Lamb, Justin Jefferson, Jamar Chase, Jaylen Waddle, and Devonte Smith. So I count 12 with the jury is still out a couple of the young guys.
The safety list was 2 out of 23 1st rounders in the last ten years
No idea what you could be thinking here...
Fitz 2X All Pro, 2X Pro Bowl
James 2X All Pro, 2X Pro Bowl
Adams All Pro
Collins All Pro, 3X Pro Bowl, All Rookie
Harry All Pro, 6X Pro Bowl
Reid Pro Bowl, All Rookie
Clinton-Dix All Pro, Pro Bowl, All Rookie
Neal Pro Bowl
Joseph All Rookie
Bucannon All Rookie
Vaccaro All Rookie
Barron All Rookie
I'd say there were only 3 or 4 on that list that HAVEN'T been at least pretty solid. And very few busts. For example, Jimmie Ward has never been to a Pro Bowl, but he got his 5th year option and just signed a new $29M deal with the team who drafted him.
Now look at the WR list. At least 2/3 of that list weren't just disappointments but flat out busts.
Pro Bowls really don't mean squat anymore but that's a another conversation for another time. How many of those guys off that safery list are out of the league, on their second/third teams or received second contracts by the teams that drafted them? I mentioned Ward above along with Smith being the only two on the list receiving second contracts with their original teams. So ultimately what value did those players have to the teams that drafted them? Not much is the answer. Derwin James, good player but injured all the time. The Jets absolutely fleeced the Seahawls in the Jamal Adams trade. Is Dix even in the league anymore? Neal is playing nickel LB for the Cowgirls. Reid was pretty average before talking himself out of the league. Landon Collins is on his 3rd team as a backup in New England, and the list goes on. It's just not a premier position.
Should the argument also be made for WR then as well? Since the lower levels of football are dominated by 7-on-7 leagues there will likely be WR talent available every single year for the foreseeable future. So that would then not make it a premium position?
Any player that either assists or defends against the QB is a premium position. The whole idea is that its WR, CB, Pass Rushers, etc.. only is just short-sighted.
Would that not make every position outside of kicker a "premium" position then since every position either assists or defends against the QB? As far as wide receivers go, there were what, six, drafted in the first round in contrast to two safeties. There haden't been any safeties drafted in the first round the two drafts prior. If the safety position was such a premium position, how could that be? Every team plays two of them. So which position would the NFL consider to be the more valuable or premium position based on that? The answer is the wide receiver position is considered to be a premium position while safety is not
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
You can do this with just about every position. Check the WRs taken in the 1st round in the last 10 drafts....
2012 - Justin Blackmon, Michael Floyd, Kendall Wright, AJ Jenkins
2013 - Tavon Austin, Deandre Hopkins, Cordarrelle Patterson
2014 - Sammy Watkins, Mike Evans, OBJ, Brandon Cooks, Kelvin Benjamin
2015 - Amari Cooper, Kevin White, DeVante Parker, Nelson Agholor, Breshad Perriman, Phillip Dorsett
2016 - Corey Coleman, Will Fuller, Josh Doctson, Laquon Treadwell
2017 - Corey Davis, Mike Williams, John Ross
2018 - DJ Moore, Calvin Ridley
2019 - Marquise Brown, N'Keal Harry
2020 - Henry Ruggs, Jerry Jeudy, CeeDee Lamb, Jalen Reagor, JJ, Brandon Aiyuk
2021 - Ja'Mar Chase, Jaylen Waddle, DeVonta Smith, Kadarius Toney, Rashod Bateman
There are 40 names here. How many have given their team 1st round value? 7 maybe? 8?
DeAndre Hopkins, Cordarelle Patterson, Mike Evans, OBJ, Amari Cooper, DJ Moore, Calvin Ridley, Ceedee Lamb, Justin Jefferson, Jamar Chase, Jaylen Waddle, and Devonte Smith. So I count 12 with the jury is still out a couple of the young guys.
The safety list was 2 out of 23 1st rounders in the last ten years
No idea what you could be thinking here...
Fitz 2X All Pro, 2X Pro Bowl
James 2X All Pro, 2X Pro Bowl
Adams All Pro
Collins All Pro, 3X Pro Bowl, All Rookie
Harry All Pro, 6X Pro Bowl
Reid Pro Bowl, All Rookie
Clinton-Dix All Pro, Pro Bowl, All Rookie
Neal Pro Bowl
Joseph All Rookie
Bucannon All Rookie
Vaccaro All Rookie
Barron All Rookie
I'd say there were only 3 or 4 on that list that HAVEN'T been at least pretty solid. And very few busts. For example, Jimmie Ward has never been to a Pro Bowl, but he got his 5th year option and just signed a new $29M deal with the team who drafted him.
Now look at the WR list. At least 2/3 of that list weren't just disappointments but flat out busts.
Pro Bowls really don't mean squat anymore but that's a another conversation for another time. How many of those guys off that safery list are out of the league, on their second/third teams or received second contracts by the teams that drafted them? I mentioned Ward above along with Smith being the only two on the list receiving second contracts with their original teams. So ultimately what value did those players have to the teams that drafted them? Not much is the answer. Derwin James, good player but injured all the time. The Jets absolutely fleeced the Seahawls in the Jamal Adams trade. Is Dix even in the league anymore? Neal is playing nickel LB for the Cowgirls. Reid was pretty average before talking himself out of the league. Landon Collins is on his 3rd team as a backup in New England, and the list goes on. It's just not a premier position.
Should the argument also be made for WR then as well? Since the lower levels of football are dominated by 7-on-7 leagues there will likely be WR talent available every single year for the foreseeable future. So that would then not make it a premium position?
Any player that either assists or defends against the QB is a premium position. The whole idea is that its WR, CB, Pass Rushers, etc.. only is just short-sighted.
Would that not make every position outside of kicker a "premium" position then since every position either assists or defends against the QB? As far as wide receivers go, there were what, six, drafted in the first round in contrast to two safeties. There haden't been any safeties drafted in the first round the two drafts prior. If the safety position was such a premium position, how could that be? Every team plays two of them. So which position would the NFL consider to be the more valuable or premium position based on that? The answer is the wide receiver position is considered to be a premium position while safety is not
First off, you need 2x as many WRs as safeties on your team. The 53 will have 2-3 safeties and 5-6 WRs. So you should automatically double WRs just by position requirement and roster construction alone.
Then, you factor in that WR is a flashy position. You see athletes gravitate toward that position. You also see teams draft them to energize their fanbase. Butts in seats make the world go round in the NFL.
Lastly, I guess I'm not following what you're mad about? Is it that we drafted a safety or is it that we didn't draft who you thought we should? We'll soon find out if what we drafted was worth a damn. I have no idea and frankly none of us do yet. Let these players get onto the field. I bet even by the preseason we'll start to see if who we drafted has potential.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
You can do this with just about every position. Check the WRs taken in the 1st round in the last 10 drafts....
2012 - Justin Blackmon, Michael Floyd, Kendall Wright, AJ Jenkins
2013 - Tavon Austin, Deandre Hopkins, Cordarrelle Patterson
2014 - Sammy Watkins, Mike Evans, OBJ, Brandon Cooks, Kelvin Benjamin
2015 - Amari Cooper, Kevin White, DeVante Parker, Nelson Agholor, Breshad Perriman, Phillip Dorsett
2016 - Corey Coleman, Will Fuller, Josh Doctson, Laquon Treadwell
2017 - Corey Davis, Mike Williams, John Ross
2018 - DJ Moore, Calvin Ridley
2019 - Marquise Brown, N'Keal Harry
2020 - Henry Ruggs, Jerry Jeudy, CeeDee Lamb, Jalen Reagor, JJ, Brandon Aiyuk
2021 - Ja'Mar Chase, Jaylen Waddle, DeVonta Smith, Kadarius Toney, Rashod Bateman
There are 40 names here. How many have given their team 1st round value? 7 maybe? 8?
DeAndre Hopkins, Cordarelle Patterson, Mike Evans, OBJ, Amari Cooper, DJ Moore, Calvin Ridley, Ceedee Lamb, Justin Jefferson, Jamar Chase, Jaylen Waddle, and Devonte Smith. So I count 12 with the jury is still out a couple of the young guys.
The safety list was 2 out of 23 1st rounders in the last ten years
No idea what you could be thinking here...
Fitz 2X All Pro, 2X Pro Bowl
James 2X All Pro, 2X Pro Bowl
Adams All Pro
Collins All Pro, 3X Pro Bowl, All Rookie
Harry All Pro, 6X Pro Bowl
Reid Pro Bowl, All Rookie
Clinton-Dix All Pro, Pro Bowl, All Rookie
Neal Pro Bowl
Joseph All Rookie
Bucannon All Rookie
Vaccaro All Rookie
Barron All Rookie
I'd say there were only 3 or 4 on that list that HAVEN'T been at least pretty solid. And very few busts. For example, Jimmie Ward has never been to a Pro Bowl, but he got his 5th year option and just signed a new $29M deal with the team who drafted him.
Now look at the WR list. At least 2/3 of that list weren't just disappointments but flat out busts.
Pro Bowls really don't mean squat anymore but that's a another conversation for another time. How many of those guys off that safery list are out of the league, on their second/third teams or received second contracts by the teams that drafted them? I mentioned Ward above along with Smith being the only two on the list receiving second contracts with their original teams. So ultimately what value did those players have to the teams that drafted them? Not much is the answer. Derwin James, good player but injured all the time. The Jets absolutely fleeced the Seahawls in the Jamal Adams trade. Is Dix even in the league anymore? Neal is playing nickel LB for the Cowgirls. Reid was pretty average before talking himself out of the league. Landon Collins is on his 3rd team as a backup in New England, and the list goes on. It's just not a premier position.
Should the argument also be made for WR then as well? Since the lower levels of football are dominated by 7-on-7 leagues there will likely be WR talent available every single year for the foreseeable future. So that would then not make it a premium position?
Any player that either assists or defends against the QB is a premium position. The whole idea is that its WR, CB, Pass Rushers, etc.. only is just short-sighted.
Would that not make every position outside of kicker a "premium" position then since every position either assists or defends against the QB? As far as wide receivers go, there were what, six, drafted in the first round in contrast to two safeties. There haden't been any safeties drafted in the first round the two drafts prior. If the safety position was such a premium position, how could that be? Every team plays two of them. So which position would the NFL consider to be the more valuable or premium position based on that? The answer is the wide receiver position is considered to be a premium position while safety is not
I'm challenging you on - what defines a premium position. Is it your own interpretation or draft/contractual evidence on how teams have been investing in the position? If its the latter I think there is plenty of data out there to suggest teams value the position. Maybe not as much as WR, but its closer than general perception.
In free agency how many deal >$10M AAV were given out to UFA safeties and WRs? 5 each. In recent years teams have also moved up the average draft spot of a safety by over 2 full rounds. Point in hand is that the NFL is valuing safeties A LOT more than they have in the past. Why? Because they're leveraging them more as flexible secondary pieces and now the 2-high shell safeties of the past. In most systems at this point they're an extension of the CB which is clearly a premium position league wide.
I think the closes similarity is how the OG/C market has evolved. Traditionally OTs were the "premium" O-line position. Overtime that has become inclusive of guards. That is playing out between CB and S now.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
You can do this with just about every position. Check the WRs taken in the 1st round in the last 10 drafts....
2012 - Justin Blackmon, Michael Floyd, Kendall Wright, AJ Jenkins
2013 - Tavon Austin, Deandre Hopkins, Cordarrelle Patterson
2014 - Sammy Watkins, Mike Evans, OBJ, Brandon Cooks, Kelvin Benjamin
2015 - Amari Cooper, Kevin White, DeVante Parker, Nelson Agholor, Breshad Perriman, Phillip Dorsett
2016 - Corey Coleman, Will Fuller, Josh Doctson, Laquon Treadwell
2017 - Corey Davis, Mike Williams, John Ross
2018 - DJ Moore, Calvin Ridley
2019 - Marquise Brown, N'Keal Harry
2020 - Henry Ruggs, Jerry Jeudy, CeeDee Lamb, Jalen Reagor, JJ, Brandon Aiyuk
2021 - Ja'Mar Chase, Jaylen Waddle, DeVonta Smith, Kadarius Toney, Rashod Bateman
There are 40 names here. How many have given their team 1st round value? 7 maybe? 8?
DeAndre Hopkins, Cordarelle Patterson, Mike Evans, OBJ, Amari Cooper, DJ Moore, Calvin Ridley, Ceedee Lamb, Justin Jefferson, Jamar Chase, Jaylen Waddle, and Devonte Smith. So I count 12 with the jury is still out a couple of the young guys.
The safety list was 2 out of 23 1st rounders in the last ten years
No idea what you could be thinking here...
Fitz 2X All Pro, 2X Pro Bowl
James 2X All Pro, 2X Pro Bowl
Adams All Pro
Collins All Pro, 3X Pro Bowl, All Rookie
Harry All Pro, 6X Pro Bowl
Reid Pro Bowl, All Rookie
Clinton-Dix All Pro, Pro Bowl, All Rookie
Neal Pro Bowl
Joseph All Rookie
Bucannon All Rookie
Vaccaro All Rookie
Barron All Rookie
I'd say there were only 3 or 4 on that list that HAVEN'T been at least pretty solid. And very few busts. For example, Jimmie Ward has never been to a Pro Bowl, but he got his 5th year option and just signed a new $29M deal with the team who drafted him.
Now look at the WR list. At least 2/3 of that list weren't just disappointments but flat out busts.
Pro Bowls really don't mean squat anymore but that's a another conversation for another time. How many of those guys off that safery list are out of the league, on their second/third teams or received second contracts by the teams that drafted them? I mentioned Ward above along with Smith being the only two on the list receiving second contracts with their original teams. So ultimately what value did those players have to the teams that drafted them? Not much is the answer. Derwin James, good player but injured all the time. The Jets absolutely fleeced the Seahawls in the Jamal Adams trade. Is Dix even in the league anymore? Neal is playing nickel LB for the Cowgirls. Reid was pretty average before talking himself out of the league. Landon Collins is on his 3rd team as a backup in New England, and the list goes on. It's just not a premier position.
Should the argument also be made for WR then as well? Since the lower levels of football are dominated by 7-on-7 leagues there will likely be WR talent available every single year for the foreseeable future. So that would then not make it a premium position?
Any player that either assists or defends against the QB is a premium position. The whole idea is that its WR, CB, Pass Rushers, etc.. only is just short-sighted.
Would that not make every position outside of kicker a "premium" position then since every position either assists or defends against the QB? As far as wide receivers go, there were what, six, drafted in the first round in contrast to two safeties. There haden't been any safeties drafted in the first round the two drafts prior. If the safety position was such a premium position, how could that be? Every team plays two of them. So which position would the NFL consider to be the more valuable or premium position based on that? The answer is the wide receiver position is considered to be a premium position while safety is not
I'm challenging you on - what defines a premium position. Is it your own interpretation or draft/contractual evidence on how teams have been investing in the position? If its the latter I think there is plenty of data out there to suggest teams value the position. Maybe not as much as WR, but its closer than general perception.
In free agency how many deal >$10M AAV were given out to UFA safeties and WRs? 5 each. In recent years teams have also moved up the average draft spot of a safety by over 2 full rounds. Point in hand is that the NFL is valuing safeties A LOT more than they have in the past. Why? Because they're leveraging them more as flexible secondary pieces and now the 2-high shell safeties of the past. In most systems at this point they're an extension of the CB which is clearly a premium position league wide.
I think the closes similarity is how the OG/C market has evolved. Traditionally OTs were the "premium" O-line position. Overtime that has become inclusive of guards. That is playing out between CB and S now.
I would define a "premium position" as a position capable of game changing plays of which you CAN NOT get by with average talent. You can get by with average running back talent, safety talent, interior offensive line talent. You can not get by with average QB's, receivers, offensive tackles, edge rushers, etc.
The bottom line is I don't believe we got value in the trade down, we passed on a lot of good players in trading down to take a much lower graded player who plays a position where its been proven you can get by with average talent and a large majority DONT make it to second contracts with the teams that drafted them. Nobody wants to pay a safety big money and if they do they should probably re-evaluate their salary cap priorities.
@ supafreak84
I get what you're saying, but the Vikings reportedly had Cine pretty high on their board and viewed him as a comparable talent to Hamilton at S. We can disagree with that, but it does shed some light on why Kwesi and company passed on Hamilton at 12 and were happy to get the extra picks and Cine at 32.
I still think they undervalued the compensation to drop back and missed a big opportunity to acquire 2023 draft capital. But I'm fine with them picking Cine and going safety there.
I wanted Hamilton. No bones about it.
The argument for him was you want impact players in our secondary. If the Vikings think Cine is comparable then great, we’ll see.
When you take the balance and say we got a 2fer on Cine and Booth? Starts to get close in compensation for Hamilton. Plus it doubles our chance that 1 of them will be in that 8% that are impact players.
But if Hamilton becomes the next Ed Reed I’m going to be quite pissed.
Quote: @AGRforever said:
I wanted Hamilton. No bones about it.
The argument for him was you want impact players in our secondary. If the Vikings think Cine is comparable then great, we’ll see.
When you take the balance and say we got a 2fer on Cine and Booth? Starts to get close in compensation for Hamilton. Plus it doubles our chance that 1 of them will be in that 8% that are impact players.
But if Hamilton becomes the next Ed Reed I’m going to be quite pissed.
I'm a 1%, just saying.....not in talent or finances but in my mind so my ignorance is bliss 
Quote: @Wetlander said:
@supafreak84
I get what you're saying, but the Vikings reportedly had Cine pretty high on their board and viewed him as a comparable talent to Hamilton at S. We can disagree with that, but it does shed some light on why Kwesi and company passed on Hamilton at 12 and were happy to get the extra picks and Cine at 32.
I still think they undervalued the compensation to drop back and missed a big opportunity to acquire 2023 draft capital. But I'm fine with them picking Cine and going safety there.
I know its all a crapshoot but there was just nothing I liked about that trade down. From the compensation, to the players we passed on by trading down, to the team we traded with, to the player that team drafted, to the position we chose to address when our pick finally came around. I thought it was one of the shittier draft day trades I've ever seen as a whole. Cine might be a good player, but is he going to be a true difference maker and will we see a huge upgrade at the position from what Xavier Woods gave us last season? My argument is that he isn't and any upgrade he may give us to Woods will likely be minimal. Excellent chance percentage wise that he'll be playing for another team in 5 years if he's still in the league because that's what the percentages indicate. Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping the guy is successful but I just did not agree with the trade down and the position we chose to address. If I told everybody before the draft that we were bypassing Kyle Hamilton in a shitty trade all the way down the draft board with the Lions to pick any other safety with our first pick....everyone on here would lose their shit! I find it kind of comical now that everyone's throwing on their purple shades and trying to rationalize the shit show that occurred on draft day.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ supafreak84
I get what you're saying, but the Vikings reportedly had Cine pretty high on their board and viewed him as a comparable talent to Hamilton at S. We can disagree with that, but it does shed some light on why Kwesi and company passed on Hamilton at 12 and were happy to get the extra picks and Cine at 32.
I still think they undervalued the compensation to drop back and missed a big opportunity to acquire 2023 draft capital. But I'm fine with them picking Cine and going safety there.
I know its all a crapshoot but there was just nothing I liked about that trade down. From the compensation, to the players we passed on by trading down, to the team we traded with, to the player that team drafted, to the position we chose to address when our pick finally came around. I thought it was one of the shittier draft day trades I've ever seen as a whole. Cine might be a good player, but is he going to be a true difference maker and will we see a huge upgrade at the position from what Xavier Woods gave us last season? My argument is that he isn't and any upgrade he may give us to Woods will likely be minimal. Excellent chance percentage wise that he'll be playing for another team in 5 years if he's still in the league because that's what the percentages indicate. Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping the guy is successful but I just did not agree with the trade down and the position we chose to address. If I told everybody before the draft that we were bypassing Kyle Hamilton in a shitty trade all the way down the draft board with the Lions to pick any other safety with our first pick....everyone on here would lose their shit! I find it kind of comical now that everyone's throwing on their purple shades and trying to rationalize the shit show that occurred on draft day.
I find it kind of comical now that everyone's throwing on their purple shades and trying to rationalize the shit show that occurred on draft day.
That's not the reason...Nobody liked the trade, but you can only piss and moan about something for so long, then move on. Most of us already know we have absolutely no control of the draft selections and just hope the new players pan out.
There's no do overs in the NFL draft...
Quote: @ArizonaViking said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ supafreak84
I get what you're saying, but the Vikings reportedly had Cine pretty high on their board and viewed him as a comparable talent to Hamilton at S. We can disagree with that, but it does shed some light on why Kwesi and company passed on Hamilton at 12 and were happy to get the extra picks and Cine at 32.
I still think they undervalued the compensation to drop back and missed a big opportunity to acquire 2023 draft capital. But I'm fine with them picking Cine and going safety there.
I know its all a crapshoot but there was just nothing I liked about that trade down. From the compensation, to the players we passed on by trading down, to the team we traded with, to the player that team drafted, to the position we chose to address when our pick finally came around. I thought it was one of the shittier draft day trades I've ever seen as a whole. Cine might be a good player, but is he going to be a true difference maker and will we see a huge upgrade at the position from what Xavier Woods gave us last season? My argument is that he isn't and any upgrade he may give us to Woods will likely be minimal. Excellent chance percentage wise that he'll be playing for another team in 5 years if he's still in the league because that's what the percentages indicate. Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping the guy is successful but I just did not agree with the trade down and the position we chose to address. If I told everybody before the draft that we were bypassing Kyle Hamilton in a shitty trade all the way down the draft board with the Lions to pick any other safety with our first pick....everyone on here would lose their shit! I find it kind of comical now that everyone's throwing on their purple shades and trying to rationalize the shit show that occurred on draft day.
I find it kind of comical now that everyone's throwing on their purple shades and trying to rationalize the shit show that occurred on draft day.
That's not the reason...Nobody liked the trade, but you can only piss and moan about something for so long, then move on. Most of us already know we have absolutely no control of the draft selections and just hope the new players pan out.
There's no do overs in the NFL draft...
Well that's obvious, but we are still well within the realm of pissing and moaning about trades/picks with the draft only happening a week ago and what else are we going to talk about, Johnny Depps defimation trial or inflation!? And on the topic of shitting the bed, our new GM has certainly set himself up for additional criticism should this blow up in his face by facilitating trades with division rivals and the players those teams selected. You want to talk about some huge rolls of the dice, if this doesn't work out and it does for our division rivals...Kwesi should be absolutely hammered by the fanbase and press.
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