Quote: @FSUVike said:
I quoted multiple profiles of the kid. Have read a dozen Draft grades. Pointed out, fairly, that he doesn't look like Hunter clone just because the Vikings say he does. And I get dinged for it by that persistent portion of the Board that simply can't stand to hear a single negative thing about the team, unless they themselves brought it up.
I raised legitimate points. The counter was 'Well, Dre says he's Hunter so you're wrong.' If the response had been profiles that countered what I read, heard and saw on tape I'd react in a more respectful manner. I did my homework. When you disagree without showing any inkling of doing your own, and denigrate me in the process, you get exactly what you deserve.
Wetlander, I don't mean you specifically. But there is absolutely a part of this community that attacks anything contrary to their group think mentality that is frankly disappointing.
Here is a draft evaluation for D.J. Wonnum from The Athletic that doesn't agree with your take on him being stiff in the hips...
D.J. Wonnum
STRENGTHS: Natural length might be his best trait, extending into blockers to win the point of attack...wins with speed-to-power due to his heavy hands, creating knockback at contact... launches out of his stance with twitchy muscles...hip flexibility to spin off blocks and win tight spaces...sets up blockers to create an inside rush...closes on his target with relentless energy, expanding his range...stacks and controls the edge with ferocity...gap-sound to scrape down the line...two career blocked kicks on special teams... charismatic leader and became just the third sophomore in school history to become a permanent team captain.
WEAKNESSES: Struggles to efficiently dip, rip and flatten on the edge...gives blockers a big target as a pass rusher...hand fighter, but doesn’t consistently go anywhere once locked up, lacking effective counter measures...thinks too much mid-rush with unimaginative instincts...below average breakdown skills, allowing ball carriers to shake him...needs to be a better finisher in the open field...not the type of player you want consistently dropping and covering in space...missed eight games as a junior due to damaged ligaments in his left ankle (September 2018), requiring surgery...his best production came as a sophomore.
SUMMARY: A three-year starter at South Carolina, Wonnum played the Buck edge rusher position in head coach Will Muschamp’s 4-3 base scheme. A three-time team captain, he finished his career with 29.5 tackles for loss, which ranks No. 9 in school history. A long-framed rusher, Wonnum plays well on his feet with the urgency to attack contact or give chase on plays away from him. While he loves to mix things up, his pass rush lacks sophistication and he must become a better finisher in space. Overall, Wonnum relies more on his motor than instincts as a pass rusher, but he has a projectable frame and uses his hands to free himself, projecting as a backup pass rusher with starting upside.
GRADE: 4th-5th Round
They have a different opinion than other draft evals it seems. Also, as MaroonBells pointed out... McGinn had him ranked as a 4th-5th round pick. The spider charts that Barr posted show that him and Danielle Hunter are very comparable from a height, weight, and physical traits standpoint. Hunter has the edge, but they are similar enough you can see why the Vikings were interested. Matt Miller had him projected as a 5th round pick in his latest big board two weeks before the draft. I consider McGinn and Miller to be pretty reliable because they adjust their rankings based on what they are hearing from scouts and NFL teams.
As to your last point, I do think we can all succumb to group think here and get defensive with contrary opinions... look at Muti. I don't think he projected that well to an outside zone scheme, but many here wanted us to draft him despite not being the best fit and having an injury history that would make Greg Childs blush. The OG class overall sucked this year... the top OGs weren't better players than anyone we picked at 25, 31, or 58... and the OTs that projected to OG AND were fits were for our outside zone were limited. Barch was there at 105 and I think we should have grabbed him there instead of trading back. You'll get no arguments from me there... but after he was gone, I didn't feel that strongly about anyone and Hinton probably has as much of a chance as any of the guys drafted ahead of him from the late 4th on...
Bottom line for me... it wasn't a good year to need a guy along the interior OL. The class wasn't deep at all... and I think the Vikings feel pretty good about their interior options that are already on the roster. Right or wrong, that is the sense I got from how this draft went down. It'll be Samia, Reiff/Cleveland, Collins, Elf, and Brett Jones competing for those guard spots unless we bring back Kline cheap or sign another vet.
Quote:
But there is absolutely a part of this community that attacks anything contrary to their group think mentality that is frankly disappointing.
It does seem like a thread asking your opinion and grade on the draft doesn't want any thought that is contrary to their thought or a comment about the coaches know best. Of course they do!!
I have now officially changed my draft grade post above to "I agree with everyone's grade" 
Quote: @StickyBun said:
Ok, lol.....so I looked at some Nate Stanley video for the first time....ummmm......
I liked it. He gets slammed for being immobile but he's got more fluidity than Cousins (ain't saying much). I think he might be a little bit of an underrated athlete. Just a little bit. His arm is very good. That throw at Minnesota where he was flushed out of the pocket, threw across his body and launched a bullet while moving for the long TD was NICE. Only the second 3-time captain in Iowa football history. I see upside. I just ready something that said the kid is strong mentally and has a NFL demeanor. Am I the only one?
i have watched alot of Nate Stanley and i like the pick as well. Last year he dealt with a ton of drops as he lost his main 3 receivers from 2018.
His ball placement is good though.
Throwing to better talent could give him a boost.
He has the pro tools, smarts, and competitive as hell. Might be interesting.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
look at Muti. I don't think he projected that well to an outside zone scheme, but many here wanted us to draft him despite not being the best fit and having an injury history that would make Greg Childs blush.
Thanks - maybe it's just me, but any reference to the multi-year illusion that was Greg Childs makes me LOL.
And you're so right about Muti. He only played 19 games, any other player with so little experience would have red flags even without the injury history, and he didn't fit our scheme. But fans overvalue the superstrong offensive linemen who get a lot of pancake blocks in their highlight reel.
Quote: @"BarrNone55" said:
Imma just gonna leave this here:
Danielle Hunter (top) vs DJ Wonnum (bottom)
YUGE differences in the bench & 40 times, tho. Also, Hunter was 20 yo at the combine, & Wonnum 22.
@ 22 yo. ...I bet Hunter's numbers would have been off the charts at the combine.
Hunter:
Combine Grade (beta) B
Overall Rating: 83Max 100 | Size Rating: | 44/100 | | Speed Score: | 94/100 | | Agility Score: | (N/A)/100 | | Quickness Score: | (N/A)/100 | | Strength Score: | 79/100
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Wonnum:
Combine Grade (beta) C
Overall Rating: 64Max 100 | Size Rating: | 48/100 | | Speed Score: | 78/100 | | Agility Score: | 54/100 | | Quickness Score: | 64/100 | | Strength Score: | 47/100 |
Of course, Hunter was drafted in the 3rd round, and Wonnum in the 4th....but let's hope Wonnum can 'strength/speed up' to Hunter's 20 yo level, soon.
Is there anything easier to fix than strength as measured by bench press numbers?
96th percentile vs 86th in the 40 is huge? No.
Quote: @savannahskol said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
Imma just gonna leave this here:
Danielle Hunter (top) vs DJ Wonnum (bottom)
YUGE differences in the bench & 40 times, tho. Also, Hunter was 20 yo at the combine, & Wonnum 22.
@ 22 yo. ...I bet Hunter's numbers would have been off the charts at the combine.
Hunter:
Combine Grade (beta) B
Overall Rating: 83Max 100 | Size Rating: | 44/100 | | Speed Score: | 94/100 | | Agility Score: | (N/A)/100 | | Quickness Score: | (N/A)/100 | | Strength Score: | 79/100
|
Wonnum:
Combine Grade (beta) C
Overall Rating: 64Max 100 | Size Rating: | 48/100 | | Speed Score: | 78/100 | | Agility Score: | 54/100 | | Quickness Score: | 64/100 | | Strength Score: | 47/100 |
Of course, Hunter was drafted in the 3rd round, and Wonnum in the 4th....but let's hope Wonnum can 'strength/speed up' to Hunter's 20 yo level, soon.
Here are their raw scores (not converted to a percentile):
D.J. Wonnum
6'5 / 258 lbs
34 1/8 inch arms / 10 1/2 inch hands
40: 4.73 secs
Bench: 20 reps
Vertical: 34.5 inches
Broad jump: 10' 3"
3-cone: 7.25 secs
20 yd SS: 4.44 secs
Danielle Hunter
6'5 / 252 lbs34 1/4 inch arms / 10 1/2 inch hands
40: 4.57 secs
Bench: 25 reps
Vertical: 36.5 inches (Pro Day)
Broad Jump: 10' 10" (Pro Day)
3-cone: 6.95 secs (Pro Day)
20 yd SS: 4.47 secs (Pro Day)
Your combine scores are a little skewed... Danielle only did the 40 and bench at the combine while Wonnum did them all. The rest of Hunter's testing scores were from his Pro Day. His were numbers were a bit better than Wonnum, except in the 20 yd shuttle.
Regardless... my point still stands that they are similar enough athletically that you can see why the Vikings were interested.
Obviously athletic traits aren't the be all end all or Datone Jones and Jayln Holmes would have had the same productive careers as Malik Jackson (all had very similar athletic traits and size).
However, Wonnum was voted a team captain as a sophomore and his coaches have him the Comeback Player of the Year Award and he was also a recipient of their Strength and Conditioning Award in 2019. I think that speaks to his character and work ethic... Something that Hunter also had and I think played a big part in why he went from a raw rusher to an All-Pro in a short time in the NFL.
I don't think that Wonnum will become an All-Pro like Hunter (that would be an unrealistic expectations), but I think he could develop into a productive starter.
In a vacuum if you look at draft weekend, they get a solid A. They got value on the draft board and filled their positions of need. It's about all you could ask for. They also started building on next years draft as well. As of today they are projected to receive 3rd & 6th round comp picks for Waynes/Alexander and added a 4 via the Diggs trade along with an additional 4th and 5th from this past weekend. That gives them 12 picks (1,2,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,6,6,7) entering next year. The better news is that they can still use some of these picks in camp to fill in additional depth if needed. My guess is that was part of their game plan.
But I think you need to look at how they got to where they did since teams with multiple 1st round selections typically grade better than their peers in draft grades. a few thoughts:
- Diggs trade: In hindsight my feeling is that the Vikings should have held out for an actual 3rd round pick in this years class instead of taking the comparable value of a 3rd. The 4th next year is still in the fold, but the late rounders this year didn't give the Vikings enough ammo to move up in the 3rd to add a DT. I also think you need to tack on Diggs dead money ($9M) onto Jefferson's salary since he's an apples to apples replacement. Still like the value of the pick, but it devalues it slightly.
- CB choices/Harris tag: This scenario still has to play out, but until the Vikings have Harris on a long-term extension it was the incorrect the choice to tag him. Why? The money would have better been spent on retaining Mac Alexander or signing a cheaper safety options and improving the team elsewhere. Gladney is a nice additional and brings physicality that is sorely missed. But with Mac on the roster would a CB room of Mac/Hughes/Dantzler more appetizing with a player like Blacklock at DT or McKinney/Winfield Jr. at safety?
- Trent Williams trade: Not going to lie, Trent is a heck of a player when healthy. Arguably the best zone blocking LT in the game. Its not appetizing to back up the brinks truck for a player demanding a trade, but for a 4th and 5th round selection this year it would have allowed for much more flexibility in the 2nd/3rd rounds. Once again I think the D-line probably suffered from this.
I am not arguing the decisions the Vikings made but think if you look back at the off-season this draft class is closer to a 'B' than an 'A'. The Vikings filled the needs they created admirably. But were the needs they chose to fill the correct ones? That is the bigger question that is worth answering.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
In a vacuum if you look at draft weekend, they get a solid A. They got value on the draft board and filled their positions of need. It's about all you could ask for. They also started building on next years draft as well. As of today they are projected to receive 3rd & 6th round comp picks for Waynes/Alexander and added a 4 via the Diggs trade along with an additional 4th and 5th from this past weekend. That gives them 12 picks (1,2,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,6,6,7) entering next year. The better news is that they can still use some of these picks in camp to fill in additional depth if needed. My guess is that was part of their game plan.
But I think you need to look at how they got to where they did since teams with multiple 1st round selections typically grade better than their peers in draft grades. a few thoughts:
- Diggs trade: In hindsight my feeling is that the Vikings should have held out for an actual 3rd round pick in this years class instead of taking the comparable value of a 3rd. The 4th next year is still in the fold, but the late rounders this year didn't give the Vikings enough ammo to move up in the 3rd to add a DT. I also think you need to tack on Diggs dead money ($9M) onto Jefferson's salary since he's an apples to apples replacement. Still like the value of the pick, but it devalues it slightly.
- CB choices/Harris tag: This scenario still has to play out, but until the Vikings have Harris on a long-term extension it was the incorrect the choice to tag him. Why? The money would have better been spent on retaining Mac Alexander or signing a cheaper safety options and improving the team elsewhere. Gladney is a nice additional and brings physicality that is sorely missed. But with Mac on the roster would a CB room of Mac/Hughes/Dantzler more appetizing with a player like Blacklock at DT or McKinney/Winfield Jr. at safety?
- Trent Williams trade: Not going to lie, Trent is a heck of a player when healthy. Arguably the best zone blocking LT in the game. Its not appetizing to back up the brinks truck for a player demanding a trade, but for a 4th and 5th round selection this year it would have allowed for much more flexibility in the 2nd/3rd rounds. Once again I think the D-line probably suffered from this.
I am not arguing the decisions the Vikings made but think if you look back at the off-season this draft class is closer to a 'B' than an 'A'. The Vikings filled the needs they created admirably. But were the needs they chose to fill the correct ones? That is the bigger question that is worth answering.
I think that's a very fair assessment, Geoff.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
In a vacuum if you look at draft weekend, they get a solid A. They got value on the draft board and filled their positions of need. It's about all you could ask for. They also started building on next years draft as well. As of today they are projected to receive 3rd & 6th round comp picks for Waynes/Alexander and added a 4 via the Diggs trade along with an additional 4th and 5th from this past weekend. That gives them 12 picks (1,2,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,6,6,7) entering next year. The better news is that they can still use some of these picks in camp to fill in additional depth if needed. My guess is that was part of their game plan.
But I think you need to look at how they got to where they did since teams with multiple 1st round selections typically grade better than their peers in draft grades. a few thoughts:
- Diggs trade: In hindsight my feeling is that the Vikings should have held out for an actual 3rd round pick in this years class instead of taking the comparable value of a 3rd. The 4th next year is still in the fold, but the late rounders this year didn't give the Vikings enough ammo to move up in the 3rd to add a DT. I also think you need to tack on Diggs dead money ($9M) onto Jefferson's salary since he's an apples to apples replacement. Still like the value of the pick, but it devalues it slightly.
- CB choices/Harris tag: This scenario still has to play out, but until the Vikings have Harris on a long-term extension it was the incorrect the choice to tag him. Why? The money would have better been spent on retaining Mac Alexander or signing a cheaper safety options and improving the team elsewhere. Gladney is a nice additional and brings physicality that is sorely missed. But with Mac on the roster would a CB room of Mac/Hughes/Dantzler more appetizing with a player like Blacklock at DT or McKinney/Winfield Jr. at safety?
- Trent Williams trade: Not going to lie, Trent is a heck of a player when healthy. Arguably the best zone blocking LT in the game. Its not appetizing to back up the brinks truck for a player demanding a trade, but for a 4th and 5th round selection this year it would have allowed for much more flexibility in the 2nd/3rd rounds. Once again I think the D-line probably suffered from this.
I am not arguing the decisions the Vikings made but think if you look back at the off-season this draft class is closer to a 'B' than an 'A'. The Vikings filled the needs they created admirably. But were the needs they chose to fill the correct ones? That is the bigger question that is worth answering.
I agree that Spielman made some decisions earlier in the off-season, which impacted the needs we had to fill. As for your points: - The Vikings were backed into a corner with the Diggs situation, so while the dead money is not ideal, coming out of the draft with Jefferson is a better than expected result. The mistake they made was not doubling up on WR later, which may be due to Kubiak not using many 3+ WR sets, but another receiver to compete with Sharpe & Johnson on the back end of the depth chart would have been smart. I consider Osborn as a returner only right now, which I'm not sure is fair or not.
- Holding out for a 3rd rounder this year would have been advantageous, though in hindsight no one knew that trading up would be so expensive because of the pandemic. Adding a DT in the 3rd would have really improved the draft and hopefully, it's at the top of our list of needs for 2021.
- It seemed like Alexander had no interest in coming back after he got injured in the Bears game, so while I would have liked to have kept him, it seemed like they already burned that bridge. I'm still not sure who is going to play in the slot, which is especially disappointing, since I felt that Alexander really came into his own as a slot corner last season.
- As for Harris, I felt they unexpectedly tagged him after losing both Alexander & Waynes. They needed stability in the secondary to cover for a young group of corners & keeping him became viable if we're not paying corners on their second contract. Obviously, the Vikings need to re-sign him. Otherwise, there were good safety options available in the 2nd and 3rd.
- I'm torn on the Trent Williams trade. I get the argument that trading day 3 picks for him, would have allowed us to use the 2nd rounders on DL or another need and Williams would have instantly solved LT for the next few years. The flipside to that is he will demand a huge cap hit, which would have meant parting with Reiff and/or Harris and having less cap flexibility down the road. With Cleveland, I was weary of taking him in the 1st, but he was a much better value to me in the 2nd after we had addressed WR and CB. He's certainly not a sure thing, but if he lives up to his O'Neil comparisons, then he gives us a cost-controlled option at LT for the next 4-years. It now depends on whether he develops into a good starter and what the Vikings do with $17 million per year in cap room that would have likely gone to Williams.
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