Quote: @FSUVike said:
Correct, Greed. Also, Hughes and Hill were getting plenty of time early. Rhodes, Waynes, Alexander, Barr and Kendricks were learning a new scheme that was part Man AND part zone with specific hand-off points in terms of responsibility.
And then you throw two Rookies into the mix. Yikes!
But Mike's idea was right.
You guys remember many years back when Rahgers, Manning, Brees and Brady were just dissecting Zone Coverages so teams finally started drafting bigger, more athletic CBs and playing a lot more Man?
With spread, pick plays, misdirection at the Line, etc., now scheming guys open against Man I noticed a TON of teams going with a lot more Zone looks, which really seemed to slow those high octane Offenses down the 2nd half of the season.
I think it affected the young guys like Goff and Mahomes the most as they're used to seeing guys beat man coverage and now all the sudden they're staring at a zone instead and don't have the fundamental understanding of where the natural holes are like the older QBs.
I expect Zimmer to go back to the hybrid look again but with greater success since he hopefully won't be relying on 2 Rookies to be involved in the learning curve.
I don't remember Hill getting much run early on, but I reference the PS game against Seattle in 17. There was much consternation because we looked confused in coverage and suddenly the league had passed Zimmer by (in the preseason no less). But he was working out the kinks in his route matching concepts.
That is also why I didn't have so much of a problem with Philly taking our D to the woodshed. Zimmer has a scheme based on routes and tendencies and what teams do out of certain looks. It really is the only way to keep up with the rules geared towards offense and the inability to play physical, especially across the middle (remember the possession receivers of yesteryear, big enough to handle the pounding of headhunting safeties). So when Philly went off script, rewrote their offense in the wild card weekend, our defense was at a serious disadvantage. We studied and built a play for one equation and they came out with a different one. And we shut them down on the first drive. But after they went up 14-7 on the pick 6, Pederson took some chances and found our flaw. Double moves weren't part of what we were planning on stopping. And with Rhodes out, Newman was exposed as an aging player who couldn't make up ground. So once the flaw was exposed, he went after it again and again.
So this past year, as you say, we went back to a lot more zone than Zimmer had ever done. We didn't buy any cover 2 dbs at the local convenience store, but without Rhodes physically locking down the #1, our hybrid coverage was not as solid. It almost looked like the tampa 2 in the concept of keeping everything in front and making the sure tackle and making the offense drive the field bits at a time. Chicago did this as well and killed Goff and the Rams because he couldn't stay patient.
What's the consensus on Rhode's struggles last season? Banged up, teams willing to go after him, change in rule emphasis making it harder for him to play physical, or some combination? I don't think that age is a factor yet, but he definitely did not look like the same player. If he can get back on track, then that would be a big gain for the defense.
Quote: @Tyr said:
What's the consensus on Rhode's struggles last season? Banged up, teams willing to go after him, change in rule emphasis making it harder for him to play physical, or some combination? I don't think that age is a factor yet, but he definitely did not look like the same player. If he can get back on track, then that would be a big gain for the defense.
All of that plus Zimmer changed the scheme in the offseason to incorporate more zone concepts, which he scrapped after the Rams game.
I wonder what Xavier's productivity was after that game.
Quote: @Tyr said:
What's the consensus on Rhode's struggles last season? Banged up, teams willing to go after him, change in rule emphasis making it harder for him to play physical, or some combination? I don't think that age is a factor yet, but he definitely did not look like the same player. If he can get back on track, then that would be a big gain for the defense.
Rhodes was definitely hobbled at times last year, which was probably the leading contributor. But I do think this whole idea X fell off a cliff is more media hype than actuality. He wasn't the all-pro he was in 2017 but he still was well above average in nearly every coverage snap and graded out as a top half CB1. CB is also typically a position you see a lot of performance variance year over year. If you want to go with PFF, his grades aren't as good. But you also have to consider that he gets the #1 receiving option each game and shadows that player around the field.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Tyr said:
What's the consensus on Rhode's struggles last season? Banged up, teams willing to go after him, change in rule emphasis making it harder for him to play physical, or some combination? I don't think that age is a factor yet, but he definitely did not look like the same player. If he can get back on track, then that would be a big gain for the defense.
Rhodes was definitely hobbled at times last year, which was probably the leading contributor. But I do think this whole idea X fell off a cliff is more media hype than actuality. He wasn't the all-pro he was in 2017 but he still was well above average in nearly every coverage snap and graded out as a top half CB1. CB is also typically a position you see a lot of performance variance year over year. If you want to go with PFF, his grades aren't as good. But you also have to consider that he gets the #1 receiving option each game and shadows that player around the field.
He shut down about 5 top WRs in a row in 2017.
The rules change definitely hurt him as he plays very physical. And with that, the scheme had to change. But he still was pretty good last year, just not as physically imposing as 2017.
Quote: @greediron said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Tyr said:
What's the consensus on Rhode's struggles last season? Banged up, teams willing to go after him, change in rule emphasis making it harder for him to play physical, or some combination? I don't think that age is a factor yet, but he definitely did not look like the same player. If he can get back on track, then that would be a big gain for the defense.
Rhodes was definitely hobbled at times last year, which was probably the leading contributor. But I do think this whole idea X fell off a cliff is more media hype than actuality. He wasn't the all-pro he was in 2017 but he still was well above average in nearly every coverage snap and graded out as a top half CB1. CB is also typically a position you see a lot of performance variance year over year. If you want to go with PFF, his grades aren't as good. But you also have to consider that he gets the #1 receiving option each game and shadows that player around the field.
He shut down about 5 top WRs in a row in 2017.
The rules change definitely hurt him as he plays very physical. And with that, the scheme had to change. But he still was pretty good last year, just not as physically imposing as 2017.
IIRC Rhodes was drawing more than normal PI and holding calls early in the year.. IMO the rule changes disallowing most all contact after 5 yards really hurt his physical style of guiding receivers off routes, I dont know how well he is adjusting but the later half of the year he was dealing with hamstring issues so its really hard to say one way or the other...although he doesnt look near as good in a zone scheme so that may have had some to do with his issues early on as well.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Tyr said:
What's the consensus on Rhode's struggles last season? Banged up, teams willing to go after him, change in rule emphasis making it harder for him to play physical, or some combination? I don't think that age is a factor yet, but he definitely did not look like the same player. If he can get back on track, then that would be a big gain for the defense.
Rhodes was definitely hobbled at times last year, which was probably the leading contributor. But I do think this whole idea X fell off a cliff is more media hype than actuality. He wasn't the all-pro he was in 2017 but he still was well above average in nearly every coverage snap and graded out as a top half CB1. CB is also typically a position you see a lot of performance variance year over year. If you want to go with PFF, his grades aren't as good. But you also have to consider that he gets the #1 receiving option each game and shadows that player around the field.
He shut down about 5 top WRs in a row in 2017.
The rules change definitely hurt him as he plays very physical. And with that, the scheme had to change. But he still was pretty good last year, just not as physically imposing as 2017.
IIRC Rhodes was drawing more than normal PI and holding calls early in the year.. IMO the rule changes disallowing most all contact after 5 yards really hurt his physical style of guiding receivers off routes, I dont know how well he is adjusting but the later half of the year he was dealing with hamstring issues so its really hard to say one way or the other...although he doesnt look near as good in a zone scheme so that may have had some to do with his issues early on as well. I'd tend to disagree on the penalties. In 2017 he struggled with illegal contact as well. It was a point of emphasis in 2018 but it didn't really take away from his season minus the Rams game. The scheme didn't really impact him at all either since they let him play straight up shadow man with a built in protection for crossers.
I guess I get the point that people want more out of him after they saw what he was capable of in 2017. But there are very few corners who can play the role he does in the Vikings defense. Maybe 5 or 6 others across the league.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Tyr said:
What's the consensus on Rhode's struggles last season? Banged up, teams willing to go after him, change in rule emphasis making it harder for him to play physical, or some combination? I don't think that age is a factor yet, but he definitely did not look like the same player. If he can get back on track, then that would be a big gain for the defense.
Rhodes was definitely hobbled at times last year, which was probably the leading contributor. But I do think this whole idea X fell off a cliff is more media hype than actuality. He wasn't the all-pro he was in 2017 but he still was well above average in nearly every coverage snap and graded out as a top half CB1. CB is also typically a position you see a lot of performance variance year over year. If you want to go with PFF, his grades aren't as good. But you also have to consider that he gets the #1 receiving option each game and shadows that player around the field.
He shut down about 5 top WRs in a row in 2017.
The rules change definitely hurt him as he plays very physical. And with that, the scheme had to change. But he still was pretty good last year, just not as physically imposing as 2017.
IIRC Rhodes was drawing more than normal PI and holding calls early in the year.. IMO the rule changes disallowing most all contact after 5 yards really hurt his physical style of guiding receivers off routes, I dont know how well he is adjusting but the later half of the year he was dealing with hamstring issues so its really hard to say one way or the other...although he doesnt look near as good in a zone scheme so that may have had some to do with his issues early on as well. I'd tend to disagree on the penalties. In 2017 he struggled with illegal contact as well. It was a point of emphasis in 2018 but it didn't really take away from his season minus the Rams game. The scheme didn't really impact him at all either since they let him play straight up shadow man with a built in protection for crossers.
I guess I get the point that people want more out of him after they saw what he was capable of in 2017. But there are very few corners who can play the role he does in the Vikings defense. Maybe 5 or 6 others across the league.
is there any charting of penalties by a player on a game by game basis?
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ Tyr said:
What's the consensus on Rhode's struggles last season? Banged up, teams willing to go after him, change in rule emphasis making it harder for him to play physical, or some combination? I don't think that age is a factor yet, but he definitely did not look like the same player. If he can get back on track, then that would be a big gain for the defense.
Rhodes was definitely hobbled at times last year, which was probably the leading contributor. But I do think this whole idea X fell off a cliff is more media hype than actuality. He wasn't the all-pro he was in 2017 but he still was well above average in nearly every coverage snap and graded out as a top half CB1. CB is also typically a position you see a lot of performance variance year over year. If you want to go with PFF, his grades aren't as good. But you also have to consider that he gets the #1 receiving option each game and shadows that player around the field.
He shut down about 5 top WRs in a row in 2017.
The rules change definitely hurt him as he plays very physical. And with that, the scheme had to change. But he still was pretty good last year, just not as physically imposing as 2017.
IIRC Rhodes was drawing more than normal PI and holding calls early in the year.. IMO the rule changes disallowing most all contact after 5 yards really hurt his physical style of guiding receivers off routes, I dont know how well he is adjusting but the later half of the year he was dealing with hamstring issues so its really hard to say one way or the other...although he doesnt look near as good in a zone scheme so that may have had some to do with his issues early on as well. I'd tend to disagree on the penalties. In 2017 he struggled with illegal contact as well. It was a point of emphasis in 2018 but it didn't really take away from his season minus the Rams game. The scheme didn't really impact him at all either since they let him play straight up shadow man with a built in protection for crossers.
I guess I get the point that people want more out of him after they saw what he was capable of in 2017. But there are very few corners who can play the role he does in the Vikings defense. Maybe 5 or 6 others across the league.
is there any charting of penalties by a player on a game by game basis?
Just look up his stats on pro football ref.
Just my opinion on Barr, I'm happy to have him signed and he is still only 26....but he needs to get back to making impact plays for this defense. I know he was a little banged up last season but teams really targeted him in matchups and he got exposed a little bit in coverage. I worry about that continuing to be a problem with the upper echelon teams in our conference like the Rams, Saints, and Bears.
I'm not so sure we wouldn't have been better off letting him walk in free agency, putting that money into the offensive line and drafting Devin Bush in the 1st round, who gives you all the blitzing impact Barr does but is much better as a matchup coverage linebacker.
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