Quote: @PSBLAKE said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ PSBLAKE said:
Are teams seriously going to give Teddy Starter money if he does not play one snap this year? his knee is a huge question mark right now and the Sam Bradford mystery knee injury will make every team think twice about signing a guy to a Starter contract who has had as devastating a knee injury as Teddy.
I do get the hometown love an willingness to overpay for him from the Vikings and Zimmer but does anyone seriously think that in the offseason a team will throw 15+ million a year at Teddy? BTW I love Teddy and I want him to be the franchise QB but I am not sure he warrants a contract that big.
Mike Glennon calling in. He's on hold but wants to speak with you.
You don't think teams want to avoid that scenario. Glennon is the perfect example of why you make real sure the guy can play and is healthy before you give him money. But hey I could be wrong.
You are definitely logical: teams should look at Glennon, and Osweiler, Matt Schaub, Scott Mitchell, and all the other under-proven QBs that got starter money but proved to be backups (if that), and learn their lesson. But Osweiler crashing didn't prevent another team from signing Glennon, and it goes back and back to the Broncos trading for the Jets' Matt Robinson - maybe it goes back further, that's the first one in my old memory.
The whole problem is our old buddy, Brett Favre: 0-4 with 1 INT as a backup for the Falcons, but the Packers got him, and...as we all know too damn well, the rest is history.
I think teams just convince themselves that they have a Favre that just needs a bit of polishing. They also over-value seeing guys complete some passes at the NFL level, especially if they have been bit by the problem of selecting and developing a rookie QB. Hue Jackson was going to send the 33rd pick in next year's draft - allegedly the greatest QB draft since 1983 or something - for a former 5th-rounder best known for having a hot girlfriend/wife!
BTW I don't really think Glennon should be the poster boy for these failures; he's talented and played well enough in Tampa but landed in a mess in Chicago. Most of all, the coach wanted to go the veteran backup route (Glennon) and ownership wanted to draft a QB (Trubisky), so he was doomed from the start.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:I have a feeling you're going to be floored by the amount of money Teddy gets, especially if he's able to show that he's past the knee. That's why it's important—not just for the Vikings, but for Teddy, too—to get him into a game this season.
Hmm, are those things - important for Vikings / important for Teddy - the same? If Bridgewater gets into some games and shows his knee doesn't hinder him, it helps his contract leverage with the Vikings and other teams. So maybe what's best for the Vikings (who get to evaluate him in practice, unlike every other team) is to keep him on the bench the rest of this season, hope other teams are afraid to sign him, and offer him a lower-cost deal to "stick around and try to prove yourself". It may sound cold, but the goal of this franchise isn't necessarily or only to help Teddy achieve his dreams (and a big contract), it is to win.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
To add some context, I think there is a misunderstanding of what Teddy is worth. His negotiation is going to go one of two ways.
1. The team locks into a shorter term deal to mitigate the teams risk with additional guaranteed money being the trade off for the player. This is the method the Eagles took with Bradford in his 2016 extension.
2. The team offers the player market rate money and term but does not offer a significant signing bonus and reduces guarantees. Usually the player gets competitive roster bonuses with strong language. This method gives the team an easy way out of the deal with the player not being penalized for their injury or poor season. This is the method the Bengals have taken with Andy Dalton to much success.
So what does this mean for Bridgewater? Well, considering the Vikings have historically tried to pay players upfront to avoid kicking anything down the road option #2 has been their pro forma. From Bridgewater's side this makes sense to take money up-front with the opportunity earn market rate and a potential renegotiation down the road. Money wise it would look something like this:
Deal: 5 years $90M with $25M in guaranteed money ($2.5M signing bonus). All roster bonuses due 3 days prior to each new league year. Bridgewaters 2020 salary is 50% guaranteed at the payout of the $6M roster bonus and another 50% guaranteed at the beginning of camp.
2018 - Salary: $12.0M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0M / Cap Hit: $12.5M / Dead Cap: $25M / Cap Savings: ($12.5M)
2019 - Salary: $10.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $4.0M / Cap Hit: $15.0M / Dead Cap: $12.5M / Cap Savings: $2.5M
2020 - Salary: $12M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $6.0M / Cap Hit: $18.5M / Dead Cap: $1.5M / Cap Savings: $17M
2021 - Salary: $19.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $20M / Dead Cap: $1.0M / Cap Savings: $19M
2022 - Salary: $23.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $24M / Dead Cap: $500K / Cap Savings: $23.5M
If you sort through all the contractual junk this is a 2 year deal worth $27.5M. After that you pay as you go with a likely restructure before the 2021 season.
I could get behind a contract like this. But will it be enough by year 3 to make it attractive enough to Teddy's camp to consider. I could see them wanting 20 million at year 3 assuming he's healthy and performing. Basically saying 2 years of injury free starting QB play earns him that.
Quote: @AllBS said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
To add some context, I think there is a misunderstanding of what Teddy is worth. His negotiation is going to go one of two ways.
1. The team locks into a shorter term deal to mitigate the teams risk with additional guaranteed money being the trade off for the player. This is the method the Eagles took with Bradford in his 2016 extension.
2. The team offers the player market rate money and term but does not offer a significant signing bonus and reduces guarantees. Usually the player gets competitive roster bonuses with strong language. This method gives the team an easy way out of the deal with the player not being penalized for their injury or poor season. This is the method the Bengals have taken with Andy Dalton to much success.
So what does this mean for Bridgewater? Well, considering the Vikings have historically tried to pay players upfront to avoid kicking anything down the road option #2 has been their pro forma. From Bridgewater's side this makes sense to take money up-front with the opportunity earn market rate and a potential renegotiation down the road. Money wise it would look something like this:
Deal: 5 years $90M with $25M in guaranteed money ($2.5M signing bonus). All roster bonuses due 3 days prior to each new league year. Bridgewaters 2020 salary is 50% guaranteed at the payout of the $6M roster bonus and another 50% guaranteed at the beginning of camp.
2018 - Salary: $12.0M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0M / Cap Hit: $12.5M / Dead Cap: $25M / Cap Savings: ($12.5M)
2019 - Salary: $10.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $4.0M / Cap Hit: $15.0M / Dead Cap: $12.5M / Cap Savings: $2.5M
2020 - Salary: $12M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $6.0M / Cap Hit: $18.5M / Dead Cap: $1.5M / Cap Savings: $17M
2021 - Salary: $19.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $20M / Dead Cap: $1.0M / Cap Savings: $19M
2022 - Salary: $23.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $24M / Dead Cap: $500K / Cap Savings: $23.5M
If you sort through all the contractual junk this is a 2 year deal worth $27.5M. After that you pay as you go with a likely restructure before the 2021 season.
I could get behind a contract like this. But will it be enough by year 3 to make it attractive enough to Teddy's camp to consider. I could see them wanting 20 million at year 3 assuming he's healthy and performing. Basically saying 2 years of injury free starting QB play earns him that.
with the salaries escalating as fast as they are... I have my doubts that this will be enough, but Geoff would know better than any of us what is likely and what is pie in the sky so I would guess this is right.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
Hmm, are those things - important for Vikings / important for Teddy - the same? If Bridgewater gets into some games and shows his knee doesn't hinder him, it helps his contract leverage with the Vikings and other teams. So maybe what's best for the Vikings (who get to evaluate him in practice, unlike every other team) is to keep him on the bench the rest of this season, hope other teams are afraid to sign him, and offer him a lower-cost deal to "stick around and try to prove yourself". It may sound cold, but the goal of this franchise isn't necessarily or only to help Teddy achieve his dreams (and a big contract), it is to win.
I don't mention Teddy's point of view out of some sort of warm and fuzzy empathy. I mention it to help characterize his side of the negotiation. If I'm the Vikings, I would rather shell out $20M per for a QB who has shown me that he's past his injury than, say, $15M for a QB who hasn't. I think the injury question's impact on Teddy's contract will be seen more in its term rather than its amount. That's why it's important for all involved to get Teddy some playing time this year. Look, if Teddy is as terrible as some folks around here have been saying, then Case has nothing to worry about.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ AllBS said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
To add some context, I think there is a misunderstanding of what Teddy is worth. His negotiation is going to go one of two ways.
1. The team locks into a shorter term deal to mitigate the teams risk with additional guaranteed money being the trade off for the player. This is the method the Eagles took with Bradford in his 2016 extension.
2. The team offers the player market rate money and term but does not offer a significant signing bonus and reduces guarantees. Usually the player gets competitive roster bonuses with strong language. This method gives the team an easy way out of the deal with the player not being penalized for their injury or poor season. This is the method the Bengals have taken with Andy Dalton to much success.
So what does this mean for Bridgewater? Well, considering the Vikings have historically tried to pay players upfront to avoid kicking anything down the road option #2 has been their pro forma. From Bridgewater's side this makes sense to take money up-front with the opportunity earn market rate and a potential renegotiation down the road. Money wise it would look something like this:
Deal: 5 years $90M with $25M in guaranteed money ($2.5M signing bonus). All roster bonuses due 3 days prior to each new league year. Bridgewaters 2020 salary is 50% guaranteed at the payout of the $6M roster bonus and another 50% guaranteed at the beginning of camp.
2018 - Salary: $12.0M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0M / Cap Hit: $12.5M / Dead Cap: $25M / Cap Savings: ($12.5M)
2019 - Salary: $10.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $4.0M / Cap Hit: $15.0M / Dead Cap: $12.5M / Cap Savings: $2.5M
2020 - Salary: $12M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $6.0M / Cap Hit: $18.5M / Dead Cap: $1.5M / Cap Savings: $17M
2021 - Salary: $19.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $20M / Dead Cap: $1.0M / Cap Savings: $19M
2022 - Salary: $23.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $24M / Dead Cap: $500K / Cap Savings: $23.5M
If you sort through all the contractual junk this is a 2 year deal worth $27.5M. After that you pay as you go with a likely restructure before the 2021 season.
I could get behind a contract like this. But will it be enough by year 3 to make it attractive enough to Teddy's camp to consider. I could see them wanting 20 million at year 3 assuming he's healthy and performing. Basically saying 2 years of injury free starting QB play earns him that.
with the salaries escalating as fast as they are... I have my doubts that this will be enough, but Geoff would know better than any of us what is likely and what is pie in the sky so I would guess this is right.
I really doubt it would be attractive for Bridgewater, too - no offense to Geoff but it looks like a "prove yourself to us" contract. Bridgewater is a young guy full of confidence who thinks he came back from an injury as part of some destiny or god's plan or such. And every QB in this league has watched Kirk Cousins "bet on himself" for two years and he is probably going to come away with a monster contract for it.
Also, it depends on the context. Is this deal offered to Bridgewater with Keenum also signed and the two expected to compete for the starting job? Or are we going to ride Keenum all the way this year but then offer Bridgewater the above deal and let Keenum walk? I can't imagine Bridgewater liking the first option and Keenum's presence would certainly make the offer unappealing. As for letting Keenum leave, that's very risky.
I think our best bet is to keep Bridgewater out of games if at all possible. Put Sloter in if we need mop-up late in a game. Leave Bridgewater completely un-demonstrated to other teams and let our coaches and doctors evaluate his health and development privately. Then other teams will hesitate to sign Bridgewater, and we can give him a short-term deal at lower cost.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AllBS said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
To add some context, I think there is a misunderstanding of what Teddy is worth. His negotiation is going to go one of two ways.
1. The team locks into a shorter term deal to mitigate the teams risk with additional guaranteed money being the trade off for the player. This is the method the Eagles took with Bradford in his 2016 extension.
2. The team offers the player market rate money and term but does not offer a significant signing bonus and reduces guarantees. Usually the player gets competitive roster bonuses with strong language. This method gives the team an easy way out of the deal with the player not being penalized for their injury or poor season. This is the method the Bengals have taken with Andy Dalton to much success.
So what does this mean for Bridgewater? Well, considering the Vikings have historically tried to pay players upfront to avoid kicking anything down the road option #2 has been their pro forma. From Bridgewater's side this makes sense to take money up-front with the opportunity earn market rate and a potential renegotiation down the road. Money wise it would look something like this:
Deal: 5 years $90M with $25M in guaranteed money ($2.5M signing bonus). All roster bonuses due 3 days prior to each new league year. Bridgewaters 2020 salary is 50% guaranteed at the payout of the $6M roster bonus and another 50% guaranteed at the beginning of camp.
2018 - Salary: $12.0M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0M / Cap Hit: $12.5M / Dead Cap: $25M / Cap Savings: ($12.5M)
2019 - Salary: $10.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $4.0M / Cap Hit: $15.0M / Dead Cap: $12.5M / Cap Savings: $2.5M
2020 - Salary: $12M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $6.0M / Cap Hit: $18.5M / Dead Cap: $1.5M / Cap Savings: $17M
2021 - Salary: $19.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $20M / Dead Cap: $1.0M / Cap Savings: $19M
2022 - Salary: $23.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $24M / Dead Cap: $500K / Cap Savings: $23.5M
If you sort through all the contractual junk this is a 2 year deal worth $27.5M. After that you pay as you go with a likely restructure before the 2021 season.
I could get behind a contract like this. But will it be enough by year 3 to make it attractive enough to Teddy's camp to consider. I could see them wanting 20 million at year 3 assuming he's healthy and performing. Basically saying 2 years of injury free starting QB play earns him that.
with the salaries escalating as fast as they are... I have my doubts that this will be enough, but Geoff would know better than any of us what is likely and what is pie in the sky so I would guess this is right.
I really doubt it would be attractive for Bridgewater, too - no offense to Geoff but it looks like a "prove yourself to us" contract. Bridgewater is a young guy full of confidence who thinks he came back from an injury as part of some destiny or god's plan or such. And every QB in this league has watched Kirk Cousins "bet on himself" for two years and he is probably going to come away with a monster contract for it.
Also, it depends on the context. Is this deal offered to Bridgewater with Keenum also signed and the two expected to compete for the starting job? Or are we going to ride Keenum all the way this year but then offer Bridgewater the above deal and let Keenum walk? I can't imagine Bridgewater liking the first option and Keenum's presence would certainly make the offer unappealing. As for letting Keenum leave, that's very risky.
I think our best bet is to keep Bridgewater out of games if at all possible. Put Sloter in if we need mop-up late in a game. Leave Bridgewater completely un-demonstrated to other teams and let our coaches and doctors evaluate his health and development privately. Then other teams will hesitate to sign Bridgewater, and we can give him a short-term deal at lower cost.
if you sand bag Teddy he will be gone for sure. play him straight and he might be willing to play nice. other teams will see right through any attempts to hide his abilities and will be bringing him in for their own meetings and workouts if we let him get to FA. Hell is Sloter even active since Teddy came back?
edit: to answer my own question... No, Sloter has been inactive. IMO that should also speak to how ready Teddy is if Zim and Shurm arent even worried about carrying a back up plan to Teddy.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AllBS said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
To add some context, I think there is a misunderstanding of what Teddy is worth. His negotiation is going to go one of two ways.
1. The team locks into a shorter term deal to mitigate the teams risk with additional guaranteed money being the trade off for the player. This is the method the Eagles took with Bradford in his 2016 extension.
2. The team offers the player market rate money and term but does not offer a significant signing bonus and reduces guarantees. Usually the player gets competitive roster bonuses with strong language. This method gives the team an easy way out of the deal with the player not being penalized for their injury or poor season. This is the method the Bengals have taken with Andy Dalton to much success.
So what does this mean for Bridgewater? Well, considering the Vikings have historically tried to pay players upfront to avoid kicking anything down the road option #2 has been their pro forma. From Bridgewater's side this makes sense to take money up-front with the opportunity earn market rate and a potential renegotiation down the road. Money wise it would look something like this:
Deal: 5 years $90M with $25M in guaranteed money ($2.5M signing bonus). All roster bonuses due 3 days prior to each new league year. Bridgewaters 2020 salary is 50% guaranteed at the payout of the $6M roster bonus and another 50% guaranteed at the beginning of camp.
2018 - Salary: $12.0M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0M / Cap Hit: $12.5M / Dead Cap: $25M / Cap Savings: ($12.5M)
2019 - Salary: $10.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $4.0M / Cap Hit: $15.0M / Dead Cap: $12.5M / Cap Savings: $2.5M
2020 - Salary: $12M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $6.0M / Cap Hit: $18.5M / Dead Cap: $1.5M / Cap Savings: $17M
2021 - Salary: $19.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $20M / Dead Cap: $1.0M / Cap Savings: $19M
2022 - Salary: $23.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $24M / Dead Cap: $500K / Cap Savings: $23.5M
If you sort through all the contractual junk this is a 2 year deal worth $27.5M. After that you pay as you go with a likely restructure before the 2021 season.
I could get behind a contract like this. But will it be enough by year 3 to make it attractive enough to Teddy's camp to consider. I could see them wanting 20 million at year 3 assuming he's healthy and performing. Basically saying 2 years of injury free starting QB play earns him that.
with the salaries escalating as fast as they are... I have my doubts that this will be enough, but Geoff would know better than any of us what is likely and what is pie in the sky so I would guess this is right.
I really doubt it would be attractive for Bridgewater, too - no offense to Geoff but it looks like a "prove yourself to us" contract. Bridgewater is a young guy full of confidence who thinks he came back from an injury as part of some destiny or god's plan or such. And every QB in this league has watched Kirk Cousins "bet on himself" for two years and he is probably going to come away with a monster contract for it.
Also, it depends on the context. Is this deal offered to Bridgewater with Keenum also signed and the two expected to compete for the starting job? Or are we going to ride Keenum all the way this year but then offer Bridgewater the above deal and let Keenum walk? I can't imagine Bridgewater liking the first option and Keenum's presence would certainly make the offer unappealing. As for letting Keenum leave, that's very risky.
I think our best bet is to keep Bridgewater out of games if at all possible. Put Sloter in if we need mop-up late in a game. Leave Bridgewater completely un-demonstrated to other teams and let our coaches and doctors evaluate his health and development privately. Then other teams will hesitate to sign Bridgewater, and we can give him a short-term deal at lower cost.
if you sand bag Teddy he will be gone for sure. play him straight and he might be willing to play nice. other teams will see right through any attempts to hide his abilities and will be bringing him in for their own meetings and workouts if we let him get to FA. Hell is Sloter even active since Teddy came back?
You think other teams are going to be lined up to sign Ted if he doesn't play this year?
I get the fan favorite part of believing that. Same thing was said about letting Peterson hit the market.
I'm not up to speed on the tolling contract thing.
Would it not be in the Vikings best interest to go that route?
Quote: @holmanjp said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AllBS said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
To add some context, I think there is a misunderstanding of what Teddy is worth. His negotiation is going to go one of two ways.
1. The team locks into a shorter term deal to mitigate the teams risk with additional guaranteed money being the trade off for the player. This is the method the Eagles took with Bradford in his 2016 extension.
2. The team offers the player market rate money and term but does not offer a significant signing bonus and reduces guarantees. Usually the player gets competitive roster bonuses with strong language. This method gives the team an easy way out of the deal with the player not being penalized for their injury or poor season. This is the method the Bengals have taken with Andy Dalton to much success.
So what does this mean for Bridgewater? Well, considering the Vikings have historically tried to pay players upfront to avoid kicking anything down the road option #2 has been their pro forma. From Bridgewater's side this makes sense to take money up-front with the opportunity earn market rate and a potential renegotiation down the road. Money wise it would look something like this:
Deal: 5 years $90M with $25M in guaranteed money ($2.5M signing bonus). All roster bonuses due 3 days prior to each new league year. Bridgewaters 2020 salary is 50% guaranteed at the payout of the $6M roster bonus and another 50% guaranteed at the beginning of camp.
2018 - Salary: $12.0M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0M / Cap Hit: $12.5M / Dead Cap: $25M / Cap Savings: ($12.5M)
2019 - Salary: $10.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $4.0M / Cap Hit: $15.0M / Dead Cap: $12.5M / Cap Savings: $2.5M
2020 - Salary: $12M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $6.0M / Cap Hit: $18.5M / Dead Cap: $1.5M / Cap Savings: $17M
2021 - Salary: $19.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $20M / Dead Cap: $1.0M / Cap Savings: $19M
2022 - Salary: $23.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $24M / Dead Cap: $500K / Cap Savings: $23.5M
If you sort through all the contractual junk this is a 2 year deal worth $27.5M. After that you pay as you go with a likely restructure before the 2021 season.
I could get behind a contract like this. But will it be enough by year 3 to make it attractive enough to Teddy's camp to consider. I could see them wanting 20 million at year 3 assuming he's healthy and performing. Basically saying 2 years of injury free starting QB play earns him that.
with the salaries escalating as fast as they are... I have my doubts that this will be enough, but Geoff would know better than any of us what is likely and what is pie in the sky so I would guess this is right.
I really doubt it would be attractive for Bridgewater, too - no offense to Geoff but it looks like a "prove yourself to us" contract. Bridgewater is a young guy full of confidence who thinks he came back from an injury as part of some destiny or god's plan or such. And every QB in this league has watched Kirk Cousins "bet on himself" for two years and he is probably going to come away with a monster contract for it.
Also, it depends on the context. Is this deal offered to Bridgewater with Keenum also signed and the two expected to compete for the starting job? Or are we going to ride Keenum all the way this year but then offer Bridgewater the above deal and let Keenum walk? I can't imagine Bridgewater liking the first option and Keenum's presence would certainly make the offer unappealing. As for letting Keenum leave, that's very risky.
I think our best bet is to keep Bridgewater out of games if at all possible. Put Sloter in if we need mop-up late in a game. Leave Bridgewater completely un-demonstrated to other teams and let our coaches and doctors evaluate his health and development privately. Then other teams will hesitate to sign Bridgewater, and we can give him a short-term deal at lower cost.
if you sand bag Teddy he will be gone for sure. play him straight and he might be willing to play nice. other teams will see right through any attempts to hide his abilities and will be bringing him in for their own meetings and workouts if we let him get to FA. Hell is Sloter even active since Teddy came back?
You think other teams are going to be lined up to sign Ted if he doesn't play this year?
I get the fan favorite part of believing that. Same thing was said about letting Peterson hit the market.
I'm not up to speed on the tolling contract thing.
Would it not be in the Vikings best interest to go that route?
yes I think if he can move without limitation and passes the physical that teams will throw good money his way... am I saying 25 million per year... no, but likey more than what fans think he is going to stay here for. with or without him playing this year.
as far as the tolling option... maybe worth a try, but after that cheap year you will likely have a guy that just wants out as the relationship will be horribly soured due to the NFLPA dragging it into court and shit will get thrown into the public and it will get messy.
IMO if they want to keep Teddy, be straight with him. getting cute or playing legal games is only going to piss him and his agent off.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AllBS said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
To add some context, I think there is a misunderstanding of what Teddy is worth. His negotiation is going to go one of two ways.
1. The team locks into a shorter term deal to mitigate the teams risk with additional guaranteed money being the trade off for the player. This is the method the Eagles took with Bradford in his 2016 extension.
2. The team offers the player market rate money and term but does not offer a significant signing bonus and reduces guarantees. Usually the player gets competitive roster bonuses with strong language. This method gives the team an easy way out of the deal with the player not being penalized for their injury or poor season. This is the method the Bengals have taken with Andy Dalton to much success.
So what does this mean for Bridgewater? Well, considering the Vikings have historically tried to pay players upfront to avoid kicking anything down the road option #2 has been their pro forma. From Bridgewater's side this makes sense to take money up-front with the opportunity earn market rate and a potential renegotiation down the road. Money wise it would look something like this:
Deal: 5 years $90M with $25M in guaranteed money ($2.5M signing bonus). All roster bonuses due 3 days prior to each new league year. Bridgewaters 2020 salary is 50% guaranteed at the payout of the $6M roster bonus and another 50% guaranteed at the beginning of camp.
2018 - Salary: $12.0M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0M / Cap Hit: $12.5M / Dead Cap: $25M / Cap Savings: ($12.5M)
2019 - Salary: $10.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $4.0M / Cap Hit: $15.0M / Dead Cap: $12.5M / Cap Savings: $2.5M
2020 - Salary: $12M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $6.0M / Cap Hit: $18.5M / Dead Cap: $1.5M / Cap Savings: $17M
2021 - Salary: $19.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $20M / Dead Cap: $1.0M / Cap Savings: $19M
2022 - Salary: $23.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $24M / Dead Cap: $500K / Cap Savings: $23.5M
If you sort through all the contractual junk this is a 2 year deal worth $27.5M. After that you pay as you go with a likely restructure before the 2021 season.
I could get behind a contract like this. But will it be enough by year 3 to make it attractive enough to Teddy's camp to consider. I could see them wanting 20 million at year 3 assuming he's healthy and performing. Basically saying 2 years of injury free starting QB play earns him that.
with the salaries escalating as fast as they are... I have my doubts that this will be enough, but Geoff would know better than any of us what is likely and what is pie in the sky so I would guess this is right.
I really doubt it would be attractive for Bridgewater, too - no offense to Geoff but it looks like a "prove yourself to us" contract. Bridgewater is a young guy full of confidence who thinks he came back from an injury as part of some destiny or god's plan or such. And every QB in this league has watched Kirk Cousins "bet on himself" for two years and he is probably going to come away with a monster contract for it.
Also, it depends on the context. Is this deal offered to Bridgewater with Keenum also signed and the two expected to compete for the starting job? Or are we going to ride Keenum all the way this year but then offer Bridgewater the above deal and let Keenum walk? I can't imagine Bridgewater liking the first option and Keenum's presence would certainly make the offer unappealing. As for letting Keenum leave, that's very risky.
I think our best bet is to keep Bridgewater out of games if at all possible. Put Sloter in if we need mop-up late in a game. Leave Bridgewater completely un-demonstrated to other teams and let our coaches and doctors evaluate his health and development privately. Then other teams will hesitate to sign Bridgewater, and we can give him a short-term deal at lower cost.
No way am I offended, this would be more on the conservative (team friendly) side of things. But I do think there are some positive qualities for the player in this deal as well. If anything, the signing bonus is what could be toyed around with. I slimmed it down and opted for year to year roster bonuses to avoid proration (pushing cap obligation to the back end of the deal), further protecting the team.
But take a look at year 1-3 of the deal. Total cash to Bridgwater would be ($34.5M salary + $2.5M signing + $10M roster bonuses) $47M. That averages $15.7M over the first three years of the deal. For comparison that puts him above Tyrod Taylors extension but right behind the likes of Dalton, Tannehill, and Smith. Qualitatively the deal structure is also better than Taylors, but comparable to Daltons, and worse than Tannehill and Smith.
Over the back 2 years of the deal total cash is $43M (all salary) which averages $21.5M per year. That puts him in-line with Manning, Rivers, Newton, Palmer, and Roethlisberger. But if we're going to be honest, there would likely be a restructure after year 3 since the guarantees will be up and the market will have reset in the meantime.
It all relates back to my previous post. Bridgewater and his reps need to decide how much risk they want to take. $47M over three years is good money, but slightly under market value. The alternative is to take a shorter term deal for market rate, say $19-20M. But you'd be forced to give up term and security (guaranteed money). So although you're being paid more initially, any setback would expose you to the chance of being cut and ending up with significantly less money in the long-run. You could also earn more if you perform at a starting level.
Quote: @holmanjp said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AllBS said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
To add some context, I think there is a misunderstanding of what Teddy is worth. His negotiation is going to go one of two ways.
1. The team locks into a shorter term deal to mitigate the teams risk with additional guaranteed money being the trade off for the player. This is the method the Eagles took with Bradford in his 2016 extension.
2. The team offers the player market rate money and term but does not offer a significant signing bonus and reduces guarantees. Usually the player gets competitive roster bonuses with strong language. This method gives the team an easy way out of the deal with the player not being penalized for their injury or poor season. This is the method the Bengals have taken with Andy Dalton to much success.
So what does this mean for Bridgewater? Well, considering the Vikings have historically tried to pay players upfront to avoid kicking anything down the road option #2 has been their pro forma. From Bridgewater's side this makes sense to take money up-front with the opportunity earn market rate and a potential renegotiation down the road. Money wise it would look something like this:
Deal: 5 years $90M with $25M in guaranteed money ($2.5M signing bonus). All roster bonuses due 3 days prior to each new league year. Bridgewaters 2020 salary is 50% guaranteed at the payout of the $6M roster bonus and another 50% guaranteed at the beginning of camp.
2018 - Salary: $12.0M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0M / Cap Hit: $12.5M / Dead Cap: $25M / Cap Savings: ($12.5M)
2019 - Salary: $10.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $4.0M / Cap Hit: $15.0M / Dead Cap: $12.5M / Cap Savings: $2.5M
2020 - Salary: $12M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $6.0M / Cap Hit: $18.5M / Dead Cap: $1.5M / Cap Savings: $17M
2021 - Salary: $19.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $20M / Dead Cap: $1.0M / Cap Savings: $19M
2022 - Salary: $23.5M / Prorated Bonus: $500K / Roster Bonus: $0 / Cap Hit: $24M / Dead Cap: $500K / Cap Savings: $23.5M
If you sort through all the contractual junk this is a 2 year deal worth $27.5M. After that you pay as you go with a likely restructure before the 2021 season.
I could get behind a contract like this. But will it be enough by year 3 to make it attractive enough to Teddy's camp to consider. I could see them wanting 20 million at year 3 assuming he's healthy and performing. Basically saying 2 years of injury free starting QB play earns him that.
with the salaries escalating as fast as they are... I have my doubts that this will be enough, but Geoff would know better than any of us what is likely and what is pie in the sky so I would guess this is right.
I really doubt it would be attractive for Bridgewater, too - no offense to Geoff but it looks like a "prove yourself to us" contract. Bridgewater is a young guy full of confidence who thinks he came back from an injury as part of some destiny or god's plan or such. And every QB in this league has watched Kirk Cousins "bet on himself" for two years and he is probably going to come away with a monster contract for it.
Also, it depends on the context. Is this deal offered to Bridgewater with Keenum also signed and the two expected to compete for the starting job? Or are we going to ride Keenum all the way this year but then offer Bridgewater the above deal and let Keenum walk? I can't imagine Bridgewater liking the first option and Keenum's presence would certainly make the offer unappealing. As for letting Keenum leave, that's very risky.
I think our best bet is to keep Bridgewater out of games if at all possible. Put Sloter in if we need mop-up late in a game. Leave Bridgewater completely un-demonstrated to other teams and let our coaches and doctors evaluate his health and development privately. Then other teams will hesitate to sign Bridgewater, and we can give him a short-term deal at lower cost.
if you sand bag Teddy he will be gone for sure. play him straight and he might be willing to play nice. other teams will see right through any attempts to hide his abilities and will be bringing him in for their own meetings and workouts if we let him get to FA. Hell is Sloter even active since Teddy came back?
You think other teams are going to be lined up to sign Ted if he doesn't play this year?
I get the fan favorite part of believing that. Same thing was said about letting Peterson hit the market.
I'm not up to speed on the tolling contract thing.
Would it not be in the Vikings best interest to go that route?
If they can toll him, they absolutely should. It seems like the Vikings have quit talking about tolling, so I don't know if they are just keeping quiet or they decided Bridgewater and the NFLPA would drag them into court over it. I think they are going to see if they NEED to play him this year, and maybe toll him if he never sees the field.
I think there are fans who can't imagine the Vikings doing anything which might not be loving and nurturing for Teddy, but they have to be smart. I'm not saying that you keep Bridgewater off the field if Keenum gets hurt or falls apart, but we don't need to craft opportunities for him to showcase his abilities, either.
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