Quote: @medaille said:
I think a lot of my strategy at QB would be based on what
happens to Flores. I think if Flores is
back next year, I would be much more in win now mode for the short time we have
Flores than I would if he gets poached and we have to deal with having a different,
probably lesser coordinator. I think with
a lesser coordinator, we’re probably back to talking about needing to add more
talent on that side of the roster in order to maintain competitiveness and we’ll
have further to go in our rebuild.
Fair point and one I agree with. Flores has been a blessing for this team. I’m much more confident in our defense going forward than without him.
I still say that this offseason is the time to either go all-in (IE re-sign Kirk, draft best DL available in first round) or move on from Kirk and draft QB. Trying to do both simultaneously only makes both paths harder.
I think Flores might have found that he’s a better coord than HC. That law suit is still fresh in owner’s/GM’s minds.
Quote: @pattersaur said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ pattersaur said:
Saying the media went to Dobbs' head or whatever is unfounded conjecture. I'm sure he's putting in the work and learning the offense and trying like heck to play better. It sucks last night he didn't.
I said this in another thread and I say it as a big KO fan, but he is underutilizing Dobbs' mobility to a criminal level right now. I understand it took the Bears half a season before they realized last year, "oh, we should let Fields run more," but I hold KO to a higher standard than Eberflub and he should know this. Mattison/Chandler/whoever is not a competent run game. Watch Chicago, Philly, Baltimore, whoever... steal those QB run plays and incorporate them over the bye week or the season is lost for good. I'm talking 8-10 designed runs/game for Dobbs or Hall if it comes to that.
Powell also seemed to be getting open at will last night and needed more targets. I'm a shmuck on a couch and even I can see these things plain as day. Man. What a frustrating game.
For me the jury is still out on Kirk. It's easy to sit here and say "BRING HIM BACK*"
*for 1 or 2 years.
Great plan until a team like Atlanta offers him 3 years fully guaranteed. Then what?
Then what? You move on, I move on regardless, but they definitely can't get locked to Cousins again.
You can if his achilles is right and if he's in a realistic contract, and we're drafting QBOTF for the next 3 years. All those 5 star can't miss QBs around week 5 of the college season now all look flawed playing against college competition. They might go top 5 in the draft which we aren't sniffing this year, so what's the plan? A season with the astronaut and Hall? lol... We're going to be drafting a 2nd or 3rd rd. QB MAYBE and crossing our fingers that we got something, I'd want Cousins (if healthy) at least to teach the ropes until the new kid is brought up to speed or the wheels fall off.
ok, what is realistic to pay an immobile guy, coming off a season ending injury that could make him even less mobile ( if its even possible ) who is in the twilight of his career? Keep in mind he likely wont be working out prior to free agency starting so how do you sign off on that when he likely wants a multi year guaranteed money deal? how much do you pay him when hes already on the books for 28.5 million over the next year or two? How much more can you add on top of that and realistically justify kicking his contract onto future teams?
I think the team has to get after it and grab their QB early this year, if it dont pan out then try again next year, but they have to move on from a high dollar aging statue, the odds of him coming back as good as he was this year are slim, and will only go down with age.
Look at Goff in Detroit for comparison. At 29, he's probably less mobile than Cousins if Kirk had both ankles fused, and was taped to the bumper of a cement mixer. Kirk still throws a better long ball, anticipates better, and has been better under pressure. This mobility trope is just so much bullshit, when you look at the number of runs "mobile" QB's actually make per game, number of games missed by said "mobile QB's and the overall shelf life of said "mobile" QB's vs. QB's that can move in the pocket with a more balanced attack and better o-line. KOC and Kwesi have taken their eye off the ball ignoring the run game. We've become much too one dimensional, and can't control the clock.
Don't forget that prior to this non-contact freak injury, Cousins has been an iron man that has shown zero deterioration in his game, and in fact was leading the league in passing this year. Is there any statistical evidence that he can't get it done based on his performance these past 2 years?
You pay the guy what he's currently worth, given his stats he was putting up before the injury, but you also protect the franchise by making it a 2-3 yr. deal with minimal guarantees. Yes, you grab QB's in the drafts until you find someone, but it's a crapshoot, and rarely mortgaging the future for a pick turns out well.
you are confusing mobile QB with a running QB, mobility is about moving in the pocket, rolling out, making defenses work to stop you from passing the ball. running QBs are like Fields where you run to set up your passes, those are the guys that miss games and have short careers. Kirk is a statue and as such is why he gets hit so much. There are plenty of QBs that arent running QBs, but dont take as many hits because they move around the pocket, and have escapability in their game.
if you think kirk is going to take a non guaranteed deal full of escalators, i dont think you've been paying attention to his track record. He has been all about his money since day one, why does that change now? I dont see it happening and as such, take that QB, find a bridge guy, build a better IOL and IDL, and be ready to go compete instead of sitting there with a declining statue for a QB that has the team financially handcuffed now as well as in the void years you have to add to make his new deal work. remember, incentives still count against that cap now if they are likely to be earned, much of what he would agree to would likely have to fit into that category, so no cap relief from that type of deal.
not confusing the two at all. Kirk is amazing when running off play action. That doesn’t work when you have no run threat. I have no idea why there aren’t more designed rollouts. It’s not that Kirk isn’t capable, but it does often put him on an island against an edge rusher.
I don’t think Kirk has the same leverage for guarantees. If he hits incentives that means he’s healthy and performing. How is that a downside? Again, this is the best bridge scenario you could hope for because we’re not going to spend our #1 on a QB this year with about 9 teams ahead of us needing QBs, and as you said, already owing him about 28.5 mil in dead money, just rolling that over into the new contract with the cap rising.
I agree with all of this but what would you personally do if Kirk says I want 3 years fully guaranteed at signing? Or 2 years, same conditions plus a no trade clause?
He might not ask for these things but history says he probably will. At that point I think the Vikings have no choice but to walk away. Sucks but idk how you can guarantee even more money to an older QB coming off a very serious injury.
Yeah, if he wants fully guaranteed 3yr. deal as if this injury never happened, then this is a different conversation. I don’t see the organization agreeing to that or Cousins asking for that if he truly wants to be here.
Cousins will not give a big discount, but if he would take 2 years i would bring him back. Hes good enough to get this team deep.
That said, i would be fine giving Dobbs a nice QB2 contract- I think with more time in this O and some coaching he could be a starter you can consistently win with.
For this year it logically should be Mullens stepping in as that is what we signed him and paid him to do and he is the best passer of what’s left.
Hall stays and develops no matter what, we likely drafted him to be a long term Qb2 and he needs some seasoning.
Finally if a great prospect falls to you, you take him and move dobbs if KC comes back.
Quote: @mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
I think the team has to get after it and grab their QB early this year, if it dont pan out then try again next year, but they have to move on from a high dollar aging statue, the odds of him coming back as good as he was this year are slim, and will only go down with age.
Look at Goff in Detroit for comparison. At 29, he's probably less mobile than Cousins if Kirk had both ankles fused, and was taped to the bumper of a cement mixer. Kirk still throws a better long ball, anticipates better, and has been better under pressure. This mobility trope is just so much bullshit, when you look at the number of runs "mobile" QB's actually make per game, number of games missed by said "mobile QB's and the overall shelf life of said "mobile" QB's vs. QB's that can move in the pocket with a more balanced attack and better o-line. KOC and Kwesi have taken their eye off the ball ignoring the run game. We've become much too one dimensional, and can't control the clock.
Don't forget that prior to this non-contact freak injury, Cousins has been an iron man that has shown zero deterioration in his game, and in fact was leading the league in passing this year. Is there any statistical evidence that he can't get it done based on his performance these past 2 years?
You pay the guy what he's currently worth, given his stats he was putting up before the injury, but you also protect the franchise by making it a 2-3 yr. deal with minimal guarantees. Yes, you grab QB's in the drafts until you find someone, but it's a crapshoot, and rarely mortgaging the future for a pick turns out well.
you are confusing mobile QB with a running QB, mobility is about moving in the pocket, rolling out, making defenses work to stop you from passing the ball. running QBs are like Fields where you run to set up your passes, those are the guys that miss games and have short careers. Kirk is a statue and as such is why he gets hit so much. There are plenty of QBs that arent running QBs, but dont take as many hits because they move around the pocket, and have escapability in their game.
if you think kirk is going to take a non guaranteed deal full of escalators, i dont think you've been paying attention to his track record. He has been all about his money since day one, why does that change now? I dont see it happening and as such, take that QB, find a bridge guy, build a better IOL and IDL, and be ready to go compete instead of sitting there with a declining statue for a QB that has the team financially handcuffed now as well as in the void years you have to add to make his new deal work. remember, incentives still count against that cap now if they are likely to be earned, much of what he would agree to would likely have to fit into that category, so no cap relief from that type of deal.
not confusing the two at all. Kirk is amazing when running off play action. That doesn’t work when you have no run threat. I have no idea why there aren’t more designed rollouts. It’s not that Kirk isn’t capable, but it does often put him on an island against an edge rusher.
I don’t think Kirk has the same leverage for guarantees. If he hits incentives that means he’s healthy and performing. How is that a downside? Again, this is the best bridge scenario you could hope for because we’re not going to spend our #1 on a QB this year with about 9 teams ahead of us needing QBs, and as you said, already owing him about 28.5 mil in dead money, just rolling that over into the new contract with the cap rising.
have to disagree, watching kirk run boots and other is painful, he in not a natural scrambler. even though he is good at selling the fake, he is not able to get the fuck outta dodge quick enough to really make some hay.
as far as his contract, leverage wont matter, some team will offer him more ( at least according to his agent) and the team will be put up against that, IMO the smart move is to call the bluff like they did with Cook this year. I am tired of players that are on the end of their careers dictating terms and having GMs that placate to these underperforming players that screw future rosters chances.
we have been chasing contracts at least since we signed Favre and started pushing money into future years, we've been going backwards ever since with declining players, I just want to see a reset and get back to building around our future instead of our past.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
I think the team has to get after it and grab their QB early this year, if it dont pan out then try again next year, but they have to move on from a high dollar aging statue, the odds of him coming back as good as he was this year are slim, and will only go down with age.
Look at Goff in Detroit for comparison. At 29, he's probably less mobile than Cousins if Kirk had both ankles fused, and was taped to the bumper of a cement mixer. Kirk still throws a better long ball, anticipates better, and has been better under pressure. This mobility trope is just so much bullshit, when you look at the number of runs "mobile" QB's actually make per game, number of games missed by said "mobile QB's and the overall shelf life of said "mobile" QB's vs. QB's that can move in the pocket with a more balanced attack and better o-line. KOC and Kwesi have taken their eye off the ball ignoring the run game. We've become much too one dimensional, and can't control the clock.
Don't forget that prior to this non-contact freak injury, Cousins has been an iron man that has shown zero deterioration in his game, and in fact was leading the league in passing this year. Is there any statistical evidence that he can't get it done based on his performance these past 2 years?
You pay the guy what he's currently worth, given his stats he was putting up before the injury, but you also protect the franchise by making it a 2-3 yr. deal with minimal guarantees. Yes, you grab QB's in the drafts until you find someone, but it's a crapshoot, and rarely mortgaging the future for a pick turns out well.
you are confusing mobile QB with a running QB, mobility is about moving in the pocket, rolling out, making defenses work to stop you from passing the ball. running QBs are like Fields where you run to set up your passes, those are the guys that miss games and have short careers. Kirk is a statue and as such is why he gets hit so much. There are plenty of QBs that arent running QBs, but dont take as many hits because they move around the pocket, and have escapability in their game.
if you think kirk is going to take a non guaranteed deal full of escalators, i dont think you've been paying attention to his track record. He has been all about his money since day one, why does that change now? I dont see it happening and as such, take that QB, find a bridge guy, build a better IOL and IDL, and be ready to go compete instead of sitting there with a declining statue for a QB that has the team financially handcuffed now as well as in the void years you have to add to make his new deal work. remember, incentives still count against that cap now if they are likely to be earned, much of what he would agree to would likely have to fit into that category, so no cap relief from that type of deal.
not confusing the two at all. Kirk is amazing when running off play action. That doesn’t work when you have no run threat. I have no idea why there aren’t more designed rollouts. It’s not that Kirk isn’t capable, but it does often put him on an island against an edge rusher.
I don’t think Kirk has the same leverage for guarantees. If he hits incentives that means he’s healthy and performing. How is that a downside? Again, this is the best bridge scenario you could hope for because we’re not going to spend our #1 on a QB this year with about 9 teams ahead of us needing QBs, and as you said, already owing him about 28.5 mil in dead money, just rolling that over into the new contract with the cap rising.
have to disagree, watching kirk run boots and other is painful, he in not a natural scrambler. even though he is good at selling the fake, he is not able to get the fuck outta dodge quick enough to really make some hay.
as far as his contract, leverage wont matter, some team will offer him more ( at least according to his agent) and the team will be put up against that, IMO the smart move is to call the bluff like they did with Cook this year. I am tired of players that are on the end of their careers dictating terms and having GMs that placate to these underperforming players that screw future rosters chances.
we have been chasing contracts at least since we signed Favre and started pushing money into future years, we've been going backwards ever since with declining players, I just want to see a reset and get back to building around our future instead of our past.
The Vikings have $56M in cap space for 2024. And this includes JJ's 5th-year, $20M cap hit, which will likely be cut in half if he's given a new deal. It also includes Harrison Smith's $19M cap hit, most of which will be eliminated if he's released post June.
When the Vikings moved on from P2, Z, Thielen, Kendricks, Dalvin, etc, a lot of folks bitched. But this gave the team plenty of flexibility in 2024 to resign Cousins, Hunter, etc.
|
