Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Incomplete. But I feel good about the direction.
KAM identified Shelley and Tonga as mid-year acquisitions. Both of these guys were practice squad players who came in and started for us, and actually played fairly well. That's a good sign for the veteran scouting staff.
The draft was impressive as well. Not real happy about the 1st round trade-down comp, but the players were good. Ingram, Asamoah and Evans are future starters, with Nailor a possibility as well. And we haven't even heard from Cine and Booth yet.
KOC was good. Took basically the same roster, completely changed both the offensive and defensive schemes, and through better situational football, won 5 more games. Donatell was a big problem, though, and maybe they should've thought that one through a little more. We'll see how they respond to that.
We also don't know how they're going to approach sensitive contract situations with Peterson, Thielen, Harry, Kendricks, Cook, Cousins. A lot of tough decisions coming soon and we just have no precedence for how this group will approach them.
What part of the draft did you find "impressive?" That's the first time I've heard anyone describe our draft using that word. It was a dumpster fire, and when you factor in the trade downs with division rivals allowing them to acquire sorely needed playmakers, it takes on a new level of dumpster fires. We drafted 10 players, and outside of below average play from Ingram, we got nothing out of the entire draft class including no defensive contributions for a defense that ranked 31st in the league.
Really? You think you can call a draft a failure after one season, in which three of our top five draft picks were hurt? Ridiculous, but I get it. They didn't draft who you wanted them to draft.
They didn't draft who ANYBODY wanted and if they had, they would probably be better off. We got zero impact from out draft class of 10 players this year and Kwesi opened himself up for criticism with the way he handled the draft. Year one blew up in his face, so yes, he is going to continue to be criticized until he makes better decisions in player evaluation. You can't judge a draft class after one season, but it's certainly not looking good. To call the draft "impressive" is a huge reach.
So nobody wanted Cine, Booth, Ingram, Asamoah and Evans? Why not try being fair or even somewhat realistic?
Personally, I was impressed with what I saw from Asamoah and Evans. Ingram struggled like most rookie offensive linemen, but he improved over the course of the season. I think he's a long-term starter for us. It's not often you get a 2nd round rookie who starts day one and plays every game.
And this is without even mentioning Cine and Booth. We'll see where this draft class ranks in two or three years. Right now, it looks pretty good. But it's too early to say.
Anybody prior to the draft have Lewis Cine as a high want or need for this team? Booth was a huge injury concern coming in, and Ingram was considered by most to be a reach who played below average football all year. Asamoah is an undersized LB who hardly played outside of special teams. He is going to have the same problems Kendricks had in this scheme as an undersized linebacker with no bodies in front of him and big ass lineman getting on him unabated. Evans, nobody knows. Hardly played, then was injured. So yes, let's be realistic, take off the purple shades and call this draft for what it was. Kwesi needs to do better for this franchise to stay competitive moving forward regarding player evaluation...which he literally has no experience at. This draft is not a finished product obviously, but it's lack of impact was a contributing factor in our early playoff exit. That's just me calling it for what it is.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ Riphawkins said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ Riphawkins said:
Pretty high
One year in and they won the division. KAM and KOC will or at least should get better at decision making. I was honestly surprised by some of the cuts made this past offseason. Hard decisions will be made and I think KAM can make them. I don’t think there is a reason to think he wouldn’t want to put the best product out there.
The Wilf family just needs to stay out of the way a little bit. I know they wanted a soft retooling instead of a complete rebuild, which I agree with. Blowing up a roster just because never made sense to me.
Pinning Donatell on KOC is fair, however you have to look at the big picture that is the NFL coaching tree. Sometimes coordinators want more control or freedom to do what they want, or see the personnel on a team and say, Nope!We don’t know who was talked to or who was considered besides Donatell. Maybe other coaches didn’t want to attach themselves to KOC, thinking he’s young and it could hurt their career. You never know all the details.
Depth is something that will probably be lacking for at least another year. The decisions that take place this off season will impact that. You can’t do wholesale cuts and expect to be deep.
I hope this draft goes well, I hope they fix some of the problems on the defensive side of the ball, while still trying to add weapons and good depth on the O line.
Speaking of the O line, they were good at times, and they were bad at times. But, they were better than the past and they did see some young players step up and contribute. Brandel has become a very good swing tackle IMO, and honestly Bradbury stepped up his game. They’ll need to resign or replace this offseason. Is the o line elite? No, but name the starting 5 O linemen for the 6 Super Bowls Belicheat won.
I’m good with the path the Vikings are on. We’ll see in a few years who was right.
We could both be wrong.
Well, here is the situation. The Vikings are 7.4 million OVER the projected salary cap for 2023. We have a lot of older veteran players that we will need to make decisions on. There is not a single free agent on this roster I would bring back (including Bradbury) and what do we do with Cousins moving forward, who is once again going into the final year of his contract and will be 35 years old. We drafted 10 players last year and we have no idea if any of them can play or add any sort of quality depth. We have needs along the defensive line, at linebacker, we have no idea if any of the young corners on the roster are any good so does this also become a need? Thielen likely will be a salary cut in June, so finding a starting caliber receiver somewhere that can take the double and triple teams off JJ becomes a priority. We traded off draft picks for Reagor and Hockenson.
This team has huge question marks up and down the roster and I simply do not trust this front office to make the right decisions when the right decision was to blow this thing up last offseason. I would have gladly taken a 5-12 season this year with Baker Mayfield at the helm (per say), salary cap room, extra draft picks, and a top 5 draft pick heading into next season. Instead, we blew our wads trying to piece this together with duct tape, got bounced in the first round of the playoffs, and once again have to address the same problems and issues as last offseason.
Well, we all know youre not a Cousins fan, but he will be hard to replace unless you trade up and use valuable picks and ignore the reat of the roster, or trade for or sign a guy that hasn’t made it elsewhere.
Ed Ingram, Brian Asamoah, and Akaleb Evans all look like they can play, and 2 of these got substantial playing time. I have faith Cine can and will play.
Nailer looks like he can contribute, and Chandler could move up quickly if they move on from Cook and Mattison. which they probably will.
Every paints gllom and doom from the ‘22 draft class. I see a ton of potential. Everyone thinks 7 to 10 guys drafted should come in and start and be all pro. Reality says otherwise.
While I know potential doesn’t mean squat, it's what we have on this team. I guess I’m a glass half full guy.
As far as addressing the same problems goes, the biggest one was Zimmer being an asshat! They took care of that and like it ir not you havr to trust the system in olace until it doesn’t work. it worked, the Vikings won the North.
Maybe that is all the Wilfs want. Be conpetitive, keep fans in the stands, get me a return on my investment. if so, we’re Fricked!
I am actually a Cousins fan, but I understand the dynamics for what they are. He is a good, not great QB, he's 35 years old, costs us a lot of money every year, and we are always scrambling trying to figure out his contract situation.
As far as the rookies go, Ingram struggled most of the year. Asamoah didn't see a ton of action outside of special teams, and Evans we never saw enough of to form an opinion on. Our first two picks were complete busts. We have no idea what kind of player Cine is or will be after that injury, and Booth continued his injury MO he's had for years. We don't know if any of these guys can play or be long term starters for us. But more power to you if you see a ton of potential there
You’re insane if you think guys are busts if they didn’t immediately step in and play. Asamoah showed signs of being one of those guys who can make plays. He wasn’t going to supplant Kendrick’s or Hicks this year. I watched him at OK and thought he was a very good player, always around the ball, always making plays. Ingram struggled, but the way you’re wanting to tear it down and start from scratch, there will be a lot of guys struggling like Ingram did. Now he’ll have a year under his belt and should be better next season for it.I think Cine comes in and makes a difference next season. No idea about Booth.
As far as Cousins goes, pay the man, sign him for an extended contract. He’s shown his worth, and he’s worth keeping. But, the teams he’s been on have refused to do that.
If the Vikings had torn it all down and started over there would still be a ton of question marks.
I’ve read some of your other responses. One thing you said was that they didn’t draft any player that anyone wanted. Who is that anyone? You? I’m sure they don’t give a rats ass what some guy on a message board says or wants. Me included.
in fact they are probably wondering WTF we are still doing on message boards.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
Anybody prior to the draft have Lewis Cine as a high want or need for this team? Booth was a huge injury concern coming in, and Ingram was considered by most to be a reach who played below average football all year. Asamoah is an undersized LB who hardly played outside of special teams. He is going to have the same problems Kendricks had in this scheme as an undersized linebacker with no bodies in front of him and big ass lineman getting on him unabated. Evans, nobody knows. Hardly played, then was injured. So yes, let's be realistic, take off the purple shades and call this draft for what it was. Kwesi needs to do better for this franchise to stay competitive moving forward regarding player evaluation...which he literally has no experience at. This draft is not a finished product obviously, but it's lack of impact was a contributing factor in our early playoff exit. That's just me calling it for what it is.
Yes, Cine was talked about quite a bit, along with several other safeties. Cowboys had him ranked 13th overall. Booth was a frequent topic as well. And neither were reaches where we took them.
I think there might be a good bit of confirmation bias going on in your take. I seem to remember you were not a fan of the KAM hire? I think because you thought affirmative action played a part? I could be thinking of someone else, but if that's correct, I suspect everything he does will be colored by you with that brush.
Quote: @Riphawkins said "supafreak84" said"Riphawkins" said"supafreak84" said"Riphawkins" said retty high
One year in and they won the division. KAM and KOC will or at least should get better at decision making. I was honestly surprised by some of the cuts made this past offseason. Hard decisions will be made and I think KAM can make them. I don’t think there is a reason to think he wouldn’t want to put the best product out there.
The Wilf family just needs to stay out of the way a little bit. I know they wanted a soft retooling instead of a complete rebuild, which I agree with. Blowing up a roster just because never made sense to me.
Pinning Donatell on KOC is fair, however you have to look at the big picture that is the NFL coaching tree. Sometimes coordinators want more control or freedom to do what they want, or see the personnel on a team and say, Nope!We don’t know who was talked to or who was considered besides Donatell. Maybe other coaches didn’t want to attach themselves to KOC, thinking he’s young and it could hurt their career. You never know all the details.
Depth is something that will probably be lacking for at least another year. The decisions that take place this off season will impact that. You can’t do wholesale cuts and expect to be deep.
I hope this draft goes well, I hope they fix some of the problems on the defensive side of the ball, while still trying to add weapons and good depth on the O line.
Speaking of the O line, they were good at times, and they were bad at times. But, they were better than the past and they did see some young players step up and contribute. Brandel has become a very good swing tackle IMO, and honestly Bradbury stepped up his game. They’ll need to resign or replace this offseason. Is the o line elite? No, but name the starting 5 O linemen for the 6 Super Bowls Belicheat won.
I’m good with the path the Vikings are on. We’ll see in a few years who was right.
We could both be wrong.
Well, here is the situation. The Vikings are 7.4 million OVER the projected salary cap for 2023. We have a lot of older veteran players that we will need to make decisions on. There is not a single free agent on this roster I would bring back (including Bradbury) and what do we do with Cousins moving forward, who is once again going into the final year of his contract and will be 35 years old. We drafted 10 players last year and we have no idea if any of them can play or add any sort of quality depth. We have needs along the defensive line, at linebacker, we have no idea if any of the young corners on the roster are any good so does this also become a need? Thielen likely will be a salary cut in June, so finding a starting caliber receiver somewhere that can take the double and triple teams off JJ becomes a priority. We traded off draft picks for Reagor and Hockenson.
This team has huge question marks up and down the roster and I simply do not trust this front office to make the right decisions when the right decision was to blow this thing up last offseason. I would have gladly taken a 5-12 season this year with Baker Mayfield at the helm (per say), salary cap room, extra draft picks, and a top 5 draft pick heading into next season. Instead, we blew our wads trying to piece this together with duct tape, got bounced in the first round of the playoffs, and once again have to address the same problems and issues as last offseason. Well, we all know youre not a Cousins fan, but he will be hard to replace unless you trade up and use valuable picks and ignore the reat of the roster, or trade for or sign a guy that hasn’t made it elsewhere.
Ed Ingram, Brian Asamoah, and Akaleb Evans all look like they can play, and 2 of these got substantial playing time. I have faith Cine can and will play. Nailer looks like he can contribute, and Chandler could move up quickly if they move on from Cook and Mattison. which they probably will. Every paints gllom and doom from the ‘22 draft class. I see a ton of potential. Everyone thinks 7 to 10 guys drafted should come in and start and be all pro. Reality says otherwise.
While I know potential doesn’t mean squat, it's what we have on this team. I guess I’m a glass half full guy.
You’re insane if you think guys are busts if they didn’t immediately step in and play. Asamoah showed signs of being one of those guys who can make plays. He wasn’t going to supplant Kendrick’s or Hicks this year. I watched him at OK and thought he was a very good player, always around the ball, always making plays. Ingram struggled, but the way you’re wanting to tear it down and start from scratch, there will be a lot of guys struggling like Ingram did. Now he’ll have a year under his belt and should be better next season for it.I think Cine comes in and makes a difference next season. No idea about Booth.
As far as Cousins goes, pay the man, sign him for an extended contract. He’s shown his worth, and he’s worth keeping. But, the teams he’s been on have refused to do that.
If the Vikings had torn it all down and started over there would still be a ton of question marks.
I’ve read some of your other responses. One thing you said was that they didn’t draft any player that anyone wanted. Who is that anyone? You? I’m sure they don’t give a rats ass what some guy on a message board says or wants. Me included.in fact they are probably wondering WTF we are still doing on message boards.
Lol I'm simply stating that we did not get contributions from our draft class of 10 players and the lack of impact played a part in our struggles defensively and getting bounced in the playoffs. Also I'm stating that the draft and trade downs were highly questionable and did not work out in our favor year one. We are being ran by a guy with little to no experience in scouting, coaching, or playing the game himself. He was a day trader with a masters in economics.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
Anybody prior to the draft have Lewis Cine as a high want or need for this team? Booth was a huge injury concern coming in, and Ingram was considered by most to be a reach who played below average football all year. Asamoah is an undersized LB who hardly played outside of special teams. He is going to have the same problems Kendricks had in this scheme as an undersized linebacker with no bodies in front of him and big ass lineman getting on him unabated. Evans, nobody knows. Hardly played, then was injured. So yes, let's be realistic, take off the purple shades and call this draft for what it was. Kwesi needs to do better for this franchise to stay competitive moving forward regarding player evaluation...which he literally has no experience at. This draft is not a finished product obviously, but it's lack of impact was a contributing factor in our early playoff exit. That's just me calling it for what it is.
Its ok to call Booth a bust. The guy is and has always been injured.
Its not ok to call Cine a bust. He broke his leg playing and was walking not long after. He'll be back next year where we'll have a proper amount of time to evaluate whether he was worthy of the pick or not.
You can't really ding Evans much. He had a concussion. Was there other questions in his past?
Asamoah will have next year to show if he's able to take a spot. Our 4 linebackers were locked in to start the season.
Ingram will be better next year. He got better as the year went on.
@supafreak84: Lol I'm simply stating that we did not get contributions from our draft class of 10 players and the lack of impact played a part in our struggles defensively and getting bounced in the playoffs. Also I'm stating that the draft and trade downs were highly questionable and did not work out in our favor year one. We are being ran by a guy with little to no experience in scouting, coaching, or playing the game himself. He was a day trader with a masters in economics.
OK, Mr. Sudden Impact, I believe the guy you wanted was Jameson Williams. We talked about that quite a bit, with you arguing that he would be ready early in the season and me arguing that he probably wouldn't contribute much at all his first season. Fast forward 9 months and he caught one pass. Even after he was healthy, his coach commented that it wasn't "clicking" for him.
And whether you like it or not, people with experience in analytics and economics are the future of NFL leadership positions.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
Yes, Cine was talked about quite a bit, along with several other safeties. Cowboys had him ranked 13th overall. Booth was a frequent topic as well. And neither were reaches where we took them.
I think there might be a good bit of confirmation bias going on in your take. I seem to remember you were not a fan of the KAM hire? I think because you thought affirmative action played a part? I could be thinking of someone else, but if that's correct, I suspect everything he does will be colored by you with that brush.
Safety wasn't a need position on this team and the Cine pick was more of a luxury than anything. Every team will have different grades on players but he was widely considered to be a second round prospect who was running 4th on the depth chart (behind Mettelus) when he had the injury. Nobody knows his status moving forward or how much the injury will impact his play. Booth was always an injury concern and that played out as a rookie. I wanted Tariq Woolen and had him mocked to us in the second round.
And yes, my own personal opinion is Kwesi was hired in part for reasons outside his resume, but that's not really relevant when discussing the draft and the players he selected. The bottom line is i dont believe his experience qualified him to be a GM and make these kind of big decisions. It was a bad draft, and the strategy in maneuvering around with division rivals remains questionable at best. Watson is going to be a stud and a healthy Jameson Williams is going to be a problem. We are countering that with Lewis Cine and Andrew Booth!? Lol. In fairness, I also hammered Spielman quite a bit too for his gaffes. I'm an equal opportilunist when criticism is warranted. I did give Kwesi credit for the Hockenson trade...so there is that
Supa, you're being a bit harsh on KAM in my opinion. His draft left something to be desired (from my perspective), but he did make some good FA acquistions and in-season acquisitions. I like his personality and hope he learned from his first draft because everything else he did looks promising.
The biggest complaint from the draft is too many trades and not enough compensation overall... hopefully he learned that sometimes the best trade is the one you didn't make. Felt like his justification for trading with the Lions is they wanted to move back all along and just settled for the best deal of the few teams that were interested in moving up.
As to the others commenting in here, it's OK for Supa to not like the draft. I didn't care for it either. The best thing you can say about it is "potential" which comes up in a lot of posts. Problem is all that "potential" only netted one starter(Ingram) who didn't play well the first half of the season and then was probably more of a slightly below average starter by the end.
Booth was a talented college player, but didn't look like a starter when he wasn't hurt. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since he was hurt a lot, but that was his trend in college and it followed him to the NFL. Complete question mark from a guy we spent a 2nd round pick on.
Cine had a bad injury, but I love his attitude and leadership qualities. But there is no guarantee he's going to be a starter next season or live up to his potential. Plus there were reports he was struggling to pick up the defensive scheme and wasn't the best fit for what we were asking our safeties to do in coverage BEFORE he got injured... playing SPECIAL TEAMS. THAT doesn't reflect well on your GM if you're first round pick isn't an ideal fit for your defense. Hopefully we get a new DC that runs a scheme that fits Cine and some of these other young defensive guys we'll be counting on.
Evans flashed in what... Parts of 2-3 games? Harrison Hand did the same for us at the end of his rookie year and he's been nothing more than a special teams guy and backup CB for us and his new team.
Asamoah flashed in limited playing time, but he's small and again... doesn't seem like a fit for a 3-4 unless we end up playing some type of hybrid 3-4 where he's more of a coverage guy and used to blitz in special packages. I'm not sure he can hold up as a full-time starter as an ILB in a traditional 3-4.
The rest... no one knows? Feels like some are really overrating the draft because of "potential"... I don't think it was as bad as Supa says, but it definitely wasn't impressive considering the lack of contributions from our rookie class and the question marks heading into next year.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
Supa, you're being a bit harsh on KAM in my opinion. His draft left something to be desired (from my perspective), but he did make some good FA acquistions and in-season acquisitions. I like his personality and hope he learned from his first draft because everything else he did looks promising.
The biggest complaint from the draft is too many trades and not enough compensation overall... hopefully he learned that sometimes the best trade is the one you didn't make. Felt like his justification for trading with the Lions is they wanted to move back all along and just settled for the best deal of the few teams that were interested in moving up.
As to the others commenting in here, it's OK for Supa to not like the draft. I didn't care for it either. The best thing you can say about it is "potential" which comes up in a lot of posts. Problem is all that "potential" only netted one starter(Ingram) who didn't play well the first half of the season and then was probably more of a slightly below average starter by the end.
Booth was a talented college player, but didn't look like a starter when he wasn't hurt. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since he was hurt a lot, but that was his trend in college and it followed him to the NFL. Complete question mark from a guy we spent a 2nd round pick on.
Cine had a bad injury, but I love his attitude and leadership qualities. But there is no guarantee he's going to be a starter next season or live up to his potential. Plus there were reports he was struggling to pick up the defensive scheme and wasn't the best fit for what we were asking our safeties to do in coverage BEFORE he got injured... playing SPECIAL TEAMS. THAT doesn't reflect well on your GM if you're first round pick isn't an ideal fit for your defense. Hopefully we get a new DC that runs a scheme that fits Cine and some of these other young defensive guys we'll be counting on.
Evans flashed in what... Parts of 2-3 games? Harrison Hand did the same for us at the end of his rookie year and he's been nothing more than a special teams guy and backup CB for us and his new team.
Asamoah flashed in limited playing time, but he's small and again... doesn't seem like a fit for a 3-4 unless we end up playing some type of hybrid 3-4 where he's more of a coverage guy and used to blitz in special packages. I'm not sure he can hold up as a full-time starter as an ILB in a traditional 3-4.
The rest... no one knows? Feels like some are really overrating the draft because of "potential"... I don't think it was as bad as Supa says, but it definitely wasn't impressive considering the lack of contributions from our rookie class and the question marks heading into next year.
Most reasonable post in this thread.
The 2022 Draft is what it is and hopefully we get more production from those players in 2023, or the Vikings are in big trouble. The defense needs big fixes and I'm not sure it can be done in just one offseason.
|
