Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
@ FSUVike said:
Right? The 9ers have Old Man Sherman and what, exactly at Corner? But they do have two very good, versatile Safeties in Ward and Tartt. And LBs that can cover. And a killer pass rush.
Doesn't Sherman play zone 98% of the time? That is a bit different than what Zimmer asks for in his defense. I think Sherman would get toasted in this offense.
Zimmer is using a lot more zone himself these days, rule changes that emphasize not allowing as much (any) contact after 5 yards has really handcuffed Zimmers aggressive man approach.
I think that Waynes is pretty much a zone corner as well. I thought it was due to Rhodes' limitations last couple years and Waynes inability to cover man. It will be interesting to see what he goes to with new starting CBs that can cover man and play press.
I at times wondered this year about Rhodes smarts and his ability to play multiple schemes. He excelled when he was asked to just man up and be physical, yes his skills have dropped off, but he seems to be confused a lot in the zone looks that Zimmer was trying to employ last year. Does he have the mental acumen to keep his roles straight in more complex situations? I am not saying the dude is a post, just wondering if he is struggling with the scheme and that is making him play slower overall and making his physical limitation look worse than they are.
That could very well be. He could be trying to think too much and that would make you play slower for sure. I also think his hamstring was far worse than what we were led on to believe. He still struggled with it last year.
i think he sometimes has convenient injuries. if he knows the camera is on him for the wrong reasons he often comes up limping... but as soon as he is able to make a play he is hopping and moving like nothing is bothering him. kind of like the guy that always cramped up or tweaked something right before conditioning at the end of practices, but was all smiles in the locker room.
I am a big FSU fan and watched a lot of Rhodes. He didn't play a ton of zone though. He just wasn't that type of player. Coming in I believe he was a big press guy. I thought that is where he played his best.
Quote: @Canthony said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
@ FSUVike said:
Right? The 9ers have Old Man Sherman and what, exactly at Corner? But they do have two very good, versatile Safeties in Ward and Tartt. And LBs that can cover. And a killer pass rush.
Doesn't Sherman play zone 98% of the time? That is a bit different than what Zimmer asks for in his defense. I think Sherman would get toasted in this offense.
Zimmer is using a lot more zone himself these days, rule changes that emphasize not allowing as much (any) contact after 5 yards has really handcuffed Zimmers aggressive man approach.
I think that Waynes is pretty much a zone corner as well. I thought it was due to Rhodes' limitations last couple years and Waynes inability to cover man. It will be interesting to see what he goes to with new starting CBs that can cover man and play press.
I at times wondered this year about Rhodes smarts and his ability to play multiple schemes. He excelled when he was asked to just man up and be physical, yes his skills have dropped off, but he seems to be confused a lot in the zone looks that Zimmer was trying to employ last year. Does he have the mental acumen to keep his roles straight in more complex situations? I am not saying the dude is a post, just wondering if he is struggling with the scheme and that is making him play slower overall and making his physical limitation look worse than they are.
That could very well be. He could be trying to think too much and that would make you play slower for sure. I also think his hamstring was far worse than what we were led on to believe. He still struggled with it last year.
i think he sometimes has convenient injuries. if he knows the camera is on him for the wrong reasons he often comes up limping... but as soon as he is able to make a play he is hopping and moving like nothing is bothering him. kind of like the guy that always cramped up or tweaked something right before conditioning at the end of practices, but was all smiles in the locker room.
I am a big FSU fan and watched a lot of Rhodes. He didn't play a ton of zone though. He just wasn't that type of player. Coming in I believe he was a big press guy. I thought that is where he played his best.
absolutely, in a time when you could ride a receiver down the field and knock them off a route... but that dont fly anymore and he is struggling with playing off coverage and hands off.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Canthony said:
@ FSUVike said:
Right? The 9ers have Old Man Sherman and what, exactly at Corner? But they do have two very good, versatile Safeties in Ward and Tartt. And LBs that can cover. And a killer pass rush.
Doesn't Sherman play zone 98% of the time? That is a bit different than what Zimmer asks for in his defense. I think Sherman would get toasted in this offense.
Zimmer is using a lot more zone himself these days, rule changes that emphasize not allowing as much (any) contact after 5 yards has really handcuffed Zimmers aggressive man approach.
I think that Waynes is pretty much a zone corner as well. I thought it was due to Rhodes' limitations last couple years and Waynes inability to cover man. It will be interesting to see what he goes to with new starting CBs that can cover man and play press.
I at times wondered this year about Rhodes smarts and his ability to play multiple schemes. He excelled when he was asked to just man up and be physical, yes his skills have dropped off, but he seems to be confused a lot in the zone looks that Zimmer was trying to employ last year. Does he have the mental acumen to keep his roles straight in more complex situations? I am not saying the dude is a post, just wondering if he is struggling with the scheme and that is making him play slower overall and making his physical limitation look worse than they are.
That could very well be. He could be trying to think too much and that would make you play slower for sure. I also think his hamstring was far worse than what we were led on to believe. He still struggled with it last year.
i think he sometimes has convenient injuries. if he knows the camera is on him for the wrong reasons he often comes up limping... but as soon as he is able to make a play he is hopping and moving like nothing is bothering him. kind of like the guy that always cramped up or tweaked something right before conditioning at the end of practices, but was all smiles in the locker room.
I am a big FSU fan and watched a lot of Rhodes. He didn't play a ton of zone though. He just wasn't that type of player. Coming in I believe he was a big press guy. I thought that is where he played his best.
absolutely, in a time when you could ride a receiver down the field and knock them off a route... but that dont fly anymore and he is struggling with playing off coverage and hands off.
I think towards the end of the year they were starting to let players play more in PI department. At least that is what I thought
Quote: @"BarrNone55" said:
https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-spo...ony-harris
Reading a lot of great things about Harris. 12th best player in the NFL. Vikings have the best safety tandem in the NFL and no one else is even close.
It sure does beg the question, so why did our pass defense suck so bad? Best safeties in the NFL. I'd put our edge rushers in the top 5, too. I think most would. And our linebackers in pass coverage among the best as well.
Was Rhodes and our interior rush SO bad that none of that mattered? Something is just not adding up.
I have a feeling we're all going to wake up (hopefully) in 2030 and say "wow, remember the late teens and all that talent we had? Best safeties, top WR duo, great back, top rated QB, all pro edge rushers, all pro linebackers....and we just couldn't fucking win." I don't think most fans realize just how unusual it is to have this much talent on a roster.
Why is it that this team can't seem to mitigate weaknesses like other teams? Sure we need better pass protection, but I've seen teams win Super Bowls with worse offensive lines. 49ers kicked our ass with a worse IOL than ours. Chiefs won a Super Bowl with an interior line consisting of a journeyman left guard on his 4th team, 6th round right guard, and a 7th round center on his 4th team. Yeah, I know, Mahomes. But still....
We have THREE 1st rounders at corner. With the exception of Richard Sherman, who is two years older than our "too old" corner, all of the corners who played in the Super Bowl are league average players on their 2nd and 3rd teams. But we need 1st rounders everywhere?
I fear that we can keep and add all the talent in the world and it's not going to matter. Talent ain't the problem. Rant over.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-spo...ony-harris
Reading a lot of great things about Harris. 12th best player in the NFL. Vikings have the best safety tandem in the NFL and no one else is even close.
It sure does beg the question, so why did our pass defense suck so bad? Best safeties in the NFL. I'd put our edge rushers in the top 5, too. I think most would. And our linebackers in pass coverage among the best as well.
Was Rhodes and our interior rush SO bad that none of that mattered? Something is just not adding up.
I have a feeling we're all going to wake up (hopefully) in 2030 and say "wow, remember the late teens and all that talent we had? Best safeties, top WR duo, great back, top rated QB, all pro edge rushers, all pro linebackers....and we just couldn't fucking win." I don't think most fans realize just how unusual it is to have this much talent on a roster.
Why is it that this team can't seem to mitigate weaknesses like other teams? Sure we need better pass protection, but I've seen teams win Super Bowls with worse offensive lines. 49ers kicked our ass with a worse IOL than ours. Chiefs won a Super Bowl with an interior line consisting of a journeyman left guard on his 4th team, 6th round right guard, and a 7th round center on his 4th team. Yeah, I know, Mahomes. But still....
We have THREE 1st rounders at corner. With the exception of Richard Sherman, who is two years older than our "too old" corner, all of the corners who played in the Super Bowl are league average players on their 2nd and 3rd teams. But we need 1st rounders everywhere?
I fear that we can keep and add all the talent in the world and it's not going to matter. Talent ain't the problem. Rant over.
If its not an issue of talent, then what else is there? Motivation and Scheme seem to be whats left and that goes back to fingers pointing at coaching and GM IMO.
It absolutely boggles the mind whats happened with the corners and the D in totality when you consider that cap allocations, draft capital and how they show-up when it matters the most...
I agree with MB, something aint adding-up...It wasn't just last year either.
Think about those playoff games, think about that home Chicago game from two seasons ago and that infamous 4th quarter performance they left on the field.
We're starting to tread into subjective territory now. Player mental make-up, scheme etc.
Leber is right - there isn't strong player leadership on that side of the ball. Not everybody has to be a fiery leader ala Sherman style, but...And thats just part of it.
I wonder how much the coaching changes will improve things? We'll see.
I'm afraid the thing on top of Dom's head is going to be a distraction.
The Dom jokes should keep us all satiated with laughter this year no doubt.
Fan-wise we want clear, simple answers. One good causal variable might be player age too. Look at the "big knockers" on the D. How many are 30 or over now?
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-spo...ony-harris
Reading a lot of great things about Harris. 12th best player in the NFL. Vikings have the best safety tandem in the NFL and no one else is even close.
It sure does beg the question, so why did our pass defense suck so bad? Best safeties in the NFL. I'd put our edge rushers in the top 5, too. I think most would. And our linebackers in pass coverage among the best as well.
Was Rhodes and our interior rush SO bad that none of that mattered? Something is just not adding up.
I have a feeling we're all going to wake up (hopefully) in 2030 and say "wow, remember the late teens and all that talent we had? Best safeties, top WR duo, great back, top rated QB, all pro edge rushers, all pro linebackers....and we just couldn't fucking win." I don't think most fans realize just how unusual it is to have this much talent on a roster.
Why is it that this team can't seem to mitigate weaknesses like other teams? Sure we need better pass protection, but I've seen teams win Super Bowls with worse offensive lines. 49ers kicked our ass with a worse IOL than ours. Chiefs won a Super Bowl with an interior line consisting of a journeyman left guard on his 4th team, 6th round right guard, and a 7th round center on his 4th team. Yeah, I know, Mahomes. But still....
We have THREE 1st rounders at corner. With the exception of Richard Sherman, who is two years older than our "too old" corner, all of the corners who played in the Super Bowl are league average players on their 2nd and 3rd teams. But we need 1st rounders everywhere?
I fear that we can keep and add all the talent in the world and it's not going to matter. Talent ain't the problem. Rant over.
I think some of it still comes back to the end of the 2017 season. There were some scheme flaws that seem to have snowballed a bit both based on teams seeing it on tape and how the game has become so pass heavy. Looking purely at pass coverage, teams learned that the Vikings were hosed if they go them moving laterally. Enter all of the misdirection and mesh concepts. In the nickel based on alignment you basically are asking either Mac or Trae to carry a guy the entire length of the field if the linebackers are up in the A-gaps. Not a winning combination in the world of pick plays. Some of it had to do with the defense over-pursuing too. The good thing about this scheme is that you don't have to play with two high safeties since its a layered man/zone concept. Xavier was typically the only guy who would take a guy in man. That also frees Harry to play more downhill at the LOS.
Enter the 2018 season and they tried to implement more of a cover-3 feel to take away the middle of the field. That unfortunately wasn't working early and they reverted back to a lot of their old concepts. In cover-3 the key for the outside corners is to hold the outside and use the safeties as inside help. Couldn't quite figure that out. This was the start/end of the A-gap looks Zimmer has always been known for. Why? You need more safety help in zone concepts and Harrison couldn't be a joker at the LOS quite as often. In their original "base scheme" they were better than 2017 but Sheldon Richardson was key in that. The inside pressure really helped the crosser's but still led to us being exposed between the hashes in the middle of the field.
In 2019 they re-explored the zone look defense but instead settled on a cover-4 variant. That way they could still implement some man on the outsides and more or less hide man/zone looks a little better. In cover-4 you still lose some of Harrison's functionality in the box but allow the LB's to play more freely. This fixed the issues they've had in the middle of the field during the 2018 campaign but hurt them on the outsides. In cover-4 the corners don't have inside help and often don't have help over the top. As you all know, that didn't help a certain corner. They also seemed to struggle out of bunch formations, especially with motion. But I'm still looking at that a little more.
Point being is that talent isn't the issue, like you mentioned. The level of talent also set the teams floor pretty high when compared with the rest of the league. Since 2017 they've really done a nice job of patching their holes the subsequent year. The issue is that they've always opened a new can of worms in the process. I also think that as they've changed the scheme over time it's impacted some players who were hand selected for the 2017 scheme vs. what it's evolved to. I think Capers will helps since they haven't been able to find consistent pressure after moving away from the A-gap looks. That'll be his project. That indirectly will help coverage... but something needs to change on the back-end and we're going to see a makeover this off-season. Free agency will be our first insight on whether they're going to continue with zone looks or revert back to their previous scheme.
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