Quote: @greediron said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ minny65 said:
Yes we have underachieved with all the talent on this team, why? And is there anyone in particular responsible for that?
In this order
Flip
Compton
Remmers
An underperforming Elflein - he aint the same.
On the + side you've got Hill, Hughes and O'Neil
Might want to squeak cousins in on that list...
Yah, he's not without blame...Just not on my top 3.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ minny65 said:
Yes we have underachieved with all the talent on this team, why? And is there anyone in particular responsible for that?
In this order
Flip
Compton
Remmers
An underperforming Elflein - he aint the same.
On the + side you've got Hill, Hughes and O'Neil
One could argue that Flip infected all of the players below. There are players like Compton and Remmers starting on lines all over the NFL. Hell, the Bears have an undrafted guy starting on their line who's on his 6th team in 5 years. But I wonder if they're maybe not playing as poorly because their OC knows how to call plays that mitigate their weaknesses. Yeah, I know, sounds like an excuse because we know Remmers and Compton are crap. But ya know what? Elflein isn't. And the fact that even HE'S playing poorly leads me to believe that it has a lot to do with Flip.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ minny65 said:
Yes we have underachieved with all the talent on this team, why? And is there anyone in particular responsible for that?
I think we're all hoping it was Flip! And in all honestly, he's the most likely candidate. Like I've said before, we've seen Cousins play really well. We know what Cook and Thielen and Diggs and Rudolph are capable of. And there ways to mitigate outmatched offensive linemen. It takes a good OC to make it happen. I think Flip was in over his head. I saw the same look in his eye that I used to see in Ponder's. Fear, chaos, uncertainty.
I really had high hopes for Flip when we hired him. But I also said that the one thing we couldn't know was how he would handle play calling. Because IMO it's a totally different thing than designing an offense. It's about timing, rhythm and momentum. It's like a dance. You can either dance or you can't. Flip can't dance. Worse, he couldn't adjust his game plan on the fly to address what the defense was doing either. Let's hope that Stefanski is more the rising young mind than we all thought Flip was. Maybe it was Flip but we are about to find out if it was. This roster is too talented to be 6-6-1 and usually the HC is responsible for not getting the most out of talent.
Quote: @minny65 said:
Viking fan for 43 years.
Zimmer is the best coach we have had since Green and maybe better. Green was known for building up great offenses and so-so defenses. So far, I would say Zimmer is the opposite. In very limited playoff experience for Zimmer I would say he has been outcoached. I think Zimmer is great at making defensive adjustments during a game and after halftime. I do think he makes too many mistakes along the sideline as HC.
I have been an ardent supporter of Zimmer since he was hired by Rick. I have to admit this season, and the Eagles fiasco, has knocked him down a peg for me. He is no longer above reproach. The Bills game was shocking...I know about Griffen but I mean this team checked out that game. Then you have Zimmer talking about how he didn't have the team prepared for the Patriots to then follow that up with a playoff game vs Seahawks that didn't look like the offense was prepared for anything again? OK, so he fired his OC which was needed but the coaching buck stops with him. He is responsible for the whole team not just defense. Our OL has not improved since he has been here with a couple different OL coaches and our ST (Pfiffer) seems to get worse every year.
I am starting to worry about Zimmer being a Buddy Ryan one dimensional (defensive coach) and not a team HC.
I want to see how this team reacts the rest of the season. Not saying I am ready to move on from Zimmer but I am certainly in scrutiny mode now. I expect him to get through his remaining contract year and probably retire.
Agreed. But the worst for me was the way the team played vs the Bears when they had two weeks to prepare.
I know a lot of fans say Cousins does not win the big games. Well what about Zimmer?
Quote: @minny65 said:
Viking fan for 43 years.
Zimmer is the best coach we have had since Green and maybe better. Green was known for building up great offenses and so-so defenses. So far, I would say Zimmer is the opposite. In very limited playoff experience for Zimmer I would say he has been outcoached. I think Zimmer is great at making defensive adjustments during a game and after halftime. I do think he makes too many mistakes along the sideline as HC.
I have been an ardent supporter of Zimmer since he was hired by Rick. I have to admit this season, and the Eagles fiasco, has knocked him down a peg for me. He is no longer above reproach. The Bills game was shocking...I know about Griffen but I mean this team checked out that game. Then you have Zimmer talking about how he didn't have the team prepared for the Patriots to then follow that up with a playoff game vs Seahawks that didn't look like the offense was prepared for anything again? OK, so he fired his OC which was needed but the coaching buck stops with him. He is responsible for the whole team not just defense. Our OL has not improved since he has been here with a couple different OL coaches and our ST (Pfiffer) seems to get worse every year.
I am starting to worry about Zimmer being a Buddy Ryan one dimensional (defensive coach) and not a team HC.
I want to see how this team reacts the rest of the season. Not saying I am ready to move on from Zimmer but I am certainly in scrutiny mode now. I expect him to get through his remaining contract year and probably retire.
Good take and will add this: 4 offensive coordinators in the last 3 years. Common denomenator? Zimmer.
Quote: @MarkSP18 said:
@ minny65 said:
Viking fan for 43 years.
Zimmer is the best coach we have had since Green and maybe better. Green was known for building up great offenses and so-so defenses. So far, I would say Zimmer is the opposite. In very limited playoff experience for Zimmer I would say he has been outcoached. I think Zimmer is great at making defensive adjustments during a game and after halftime. I do think he makes too many mistakes along the sideline as HC.
I have been an ardent supporter of Zimmer since he was hired by Rick. I have to admit this season, and the Eagles fiasco, has knocked him down a peg for me. He is no longer above reproach. The Bills game was shocking...I know about Griffen but I mean this team checked out that game. Then you have Zimmer talking about how he didn't have the team prepared for the Patriots to then follow that up with a playoff game vs Seahawks that didn't look like the offense was prepared for anything again? OK, so he fired his OC which was needed but the coaching buck stops with him. He is responsible for the whole team not just defense. Our OL has not improved since he has been here with a couple different OL coaches and our ST (Pfiffer) seems to get worse every year.
I am starting to worry about Zimmer being a Buddy Ryan one dimensional (defensive coach) and not a team HC.
I want to see how this team reacts the rest of the season. Not saying I am ready to move on from Zimmer but I am certainly in scrutiny mode now. I expect him to get through his remaining contract year and probably retire.
Agreed. But the worst for me was the way the team played vs the Bears when they had two weeks to prepare.
I know a lot of fans say Cousins does not win the big games. Well what about Zimmer?
The offense has been lousy lately and worse as the season has worn on but I also think we’re forgetting how poorly the defense played at the beginning of the season. It was the defense that was underachieving the first few games and lead to a number of losses.
Get to the source....FIRE SPIELMAN!!!
I said it before and will many more times. He's the biggest common denominator when looking at the recent past. 13 years and 2 playoff wins. Come on guys. His ego is his biggest downfall. Zimmer is one of the best coaches in the NFL, bar none. I have no dog in the fight now, but he is the source and after 13 years it's time. Bye bye RS!!
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ minny65 said:
Yes we have underachieved with all the talent on this team, why? And is there anyone in particular responsible for that?
In this order
Flip
Compton
Remmers
An underperforming Elflein - he aint the same.
On the + side you've got Hill, Hughes and O'Neil
One could argue that Flip infected all of the players below. There are players like Compton and Remmers starting on lines all over the NFL. Hell, the Bears have an undrafted guy starting on their line who's on his 6th team in 5 years. But I wonder if they're maybe not playing as poorly because their OC knows how to call plays that mitigate their weaknesses. Yeah, I know, sounds like an excuse because we know Remmers and Compton are crap. But ya know what? Elflein isn't. And the fact that even HE'S playing poorly leads me to believe that it has a lot to do with Flip.
I think Shurmer was very good at calling/designing plays to cover up OLine issues with the Vikes. That's a big reason for having successful OCs and those that fail, IMO. Go with your strengths and try to recognize then avoid your weaknesses.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ minny65 said:
Yes we have underachieved with all the talent on this team, why? And is there anyone in particular responsible for that?
In this order
Flip
Compton
Remmers
An underperforming Elflein - he aint the same.
On the + side you've got Hill, Hughes and O'Neil
Thats just on offense.
On D there's a whole other conversation. XR hasn't looked great this year. Barr looks like the Barr of late not what we drafted. Kendricks has been mediocre since his deal. Griffen has been disappointing but... you know, his health stuff.
This team has looked like the team since the Saints 2nd half of last years playoff game vs the previous 16.5 games of last year.
I think there’s plenty of blame to go around.
I think Flip has to own playcalling, not having the offense
ready and clicking.
I think Zimmer or Flip has to own the coaching staff not
being able to coach up the OLine.
Ultimately, it’s on Zimmer. I
would guess that he delegated it to Flip.
I think it really depends on who was supposed to do the work, which we
won’t know.
Who’s responsible for hiring Flip? There’s been suggestions that Zimmer may have
been forced to hire Flip who’s a little outside his coaching style. I think it’s a ding on either Zimmer or Spielman. I really think Zimmer needs a more experienced
OC who can take over that whole side of the ball OR he has to run things and
let a more inexperienced OC focus more narrowly on play design and play
calling.
Spielman certainly must own the lack of OLine talent. He’s continually half-assed it with the low
grade talent we’ve brought in. He’s done
a little better with Elflein and O’Niell, but he had to have known that both of
those guys shouldn’t have been counted on to fill the holes we had on OLine
given their respective risks.
You can throw Sparano’s death in there as a cause for some
of the issues. I’m not sure what could
have been done. Was there anyone better
out there that they should have brought in after he passed rather than
assigning his tasks to his assistants?
Firing Flip was undoubtedly the right call. I think Spielman is on the hot seat before
Zimmer, although I’d give them both one more year with the singular focus of
fixing the OLine. I think Spielman has
to be judged on the talent he can bring in, and Zimmer has to be judged on how
well the coaching staff does.
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