Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ greediron said:
All stats can be tortured. Are you going to say Case was never bailed out by his WRs? Did you subtract the catch and run TD by Thielen against the Rams? Did you compensate for dropped INTs?
Case was amazing this year. Can he replicate it? That is the question.
Teddy was GUMP, that is pretty well established. When Norv let him throw it late in games or even late in the first half, Teddy was money. Can he reestablish himself and regain that form? That is his question.
Teddy wasn't GUMP. What does that even mean really (I know what it literally means)? Teddy doesn't get nervous, I can see that. But he's got 28 TDs and 22 INTs total in his career. He's been accurate. He's young and hasn't played in that many games. I totally understand that he might have some decent upside that remains untapped. I also will give you the offense he was in was SO Peterson heavy. But its been a long time since he's played and it easy to forget the question marks on him, including his deep ball which was atrocious.
Sigh, it will be interesting. The more I think about each of the 3, the more I find myself really wondering how good any of them will be.
It means he was best when it counted.
The whole point of including him was that he won games. That was what Defillipo said, he wanted a winner. Case and Teddy won games.
As to the deep ball, he was far from atrocious. There is another thread dedicated to that. While the author might be a bit rosy in his take, it is clear that the internet "fact" that he was horrible at the deep ball is misguided at best.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ Ilovebigtd's said:
case keenum re signing here will be the biggest mistake in viking history
You must be too young to remember Ponder, Troy Williamson, Erasmus James, Darrin Nelson or drafting Derrick Alexander over Warren Sapp...
Draft picks are different. Draft is a crap shoot for all teams. Heck, if you hit on HALF your picks in the 1st three rounds, you're doing pretty well.
This QB decision is different. We know who they are. We know the pluses and minuses of each. So I tend to agree with the kid who loves his big TDs. If we get this wrong, we're in trouble. Especially if we get it wrong BIG. And the biggest potential "wrong" IMO would be to sign Keenum long term. Think about it. Teddy can't command a long term contract. Neither can Sam. Keenum, because of a 13-3 season, is going to get a multi-year deal from someone. And that team is going to bank its future on the idea that the NFL's most sought after OC and the NFL's best contested-catch receivers had nothing to do with disguising his arm and accuracy issues, and that this undrafted QB on his 5th team is suddenly Kurt Warner and not Matt Cassel...or Marc Bulger...or Jake Delhomme.
I still say that signing Case to a multi year deal will never even come close to gutting the franchise for Walker... I honestly think that ranks up there with some of the worst management decisions of all times in anything, sports or other.... think hindenberg, donner party, etc. :p
I dont think Case would really hurt the team, i just dont think he will elevate the team like some of the other options will do at various prices.
Depends on the contract. No, nothing will beat the Herschel fiasco. That was the biggest blunder not just in Vikings history, but in all of sports history.
I'm OK tagging Case in a prove-it move. I wouldn't even bitch too much if we signed him to an easy-out Glennon-like contract. What I'm talking about is a batshit crazy contract like...
Jake Delhomme
Panthers sign Delhomme to a 5 year, 42M extension (at the time a HUGE contract). He's cut the following year. But the Panthers keep paying.
Matt Cassel
Chiefs gave up a 2nd rounder and gave backup, and supporting-cast "herring" Matt Cassel a 6-year, 62M contract. Had 1 good year and 3 terrible years in KC. Now on his 4th stint as a backup.
Marc Bulger
Rams gave Bulger a 6-year, $62M contract with 27M guaranteed in 2007. Started out OK with remnants of the "greatest show on turf," but as his supporting cast crumbled, so did he. He was replaced a year later.
I would offer Case about 15 a year with incentives to 20 or so for 3 years, with team outs after year 2 and about 25 guaranteed over the first 2 years. Its likely not enough to get him, but its what I would be comfortable with.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ Ilovebigtd's said:
case keenum re signing here will be the biggest mistake in viking history
You must be too young to remember Ponder, Troy Williamson, Erasmus James, Darrin Nelson or drafting Derrick Alexander over Warren Sapp...
Draft picks are different. Draft is a crap shoot for all teams. Heck, if you hit on HALF your picks in the 1st three rounds, you're doing pretty well.
This QB decision is different. We know who they are. We know the pluses and minuses of each. So I tend to agree with the kid who loves his big TDs. If we get this wrong, we're in trouble. Especially if we get it wrong BIG. And the biggest potential "wrong" IMO would be to sign Keenum long term. Think about it. Teddy can't command a long term contract. Neither can Sam. Keenum, because of a 13-3 season, is going to get a multi-year deal from someone. And that team is going to bank its future on the idea that the NFL's most sought after OC and the NFL's best contested-catch receivers had nothing to do with disguising his arm and accuracy issues, and that this undrafted QB on his 5th team is suddenly Kurt Warner and not Matt Cassel...or Marc Bulger...or Jake Delhomme.
I still say that signing Case to a multi year deal will never even come close to gutting the franchise for Walker... I honestly think that ranks up there with some of the worst management decisions of all times in anything, sports or other.... think hindenberg, donner party, etc. :p
I dont think Case would really hurt the team, i just dont think he will elevate the team like some of the other options will do at various prices.
Depends on the contract. No, nothing will beat the Herschel fiasco. That was the biggest blunder not just in Vikings history, but in all of sports history.
I'm OK tagging Case in a prove-it move. I wouldn't even bitch too much if we signed him to an easy-out Glennon-like contract. What I'm talking about is a batshit crazy contract like...
Jake Delhomme
Panthers sign Delhomme to a 5 year, 42M extension (at the time a HUGE contract). He's cut the following year. But the Panthers keep paying.
Matt Cassel
Chiefs gave up a 2nd rounder and gave backup, and supporting-cast "herring" Matt Cassel a 6-year, 62M contract. Had 1 good year and 3 terrible years in KC. Now on his 4th stint as a backup.
Marc Bulger
Rams gave Bulger a 6-year, $62M contract with 27M guaranteed in 2007. Started out OK with remnants of the "greatest show on turf," but as his supporting cast crumbled, so did he. He was replaced a year later.
I would offer Case about 15 a year with incentives to 20 or so for 3 years, with team outs after year 2 and about 25 guaranteed over the first 2 years. Its likely not enough to get him, but its what I would be comfortable with.
The tag can be a good way to get exclusive negotiating rights before a long-term deal can be reached. But the issue is that it'll set his market floor at $23M/yr. Rarely if ever will a player take a discount off the tag amount. I just don't see the Vikings wanting to do that with Case. The tag is because they want to see him do it another year.
On a long-term deal you need to really figure out who you're bidding against. There are QB needy teams but how many are going to be so quick to give Case $18M/yr? Maybe the Cardinals or Broncos. But I doubt Case is their first option. The Vikings best negotiating tactic may be to let Case hit the market to figure out what he can get. Maybe someone surprises, but once a team or two signs another QB maybe the Vikings end up getting him for a discount ($16M/yr or so?). Free agent values are always highest right before they hit the market.
With teams willing to pay 30 million a year for Cousins I would be pretty happy with 16 million a year for Case, or maybe for Bradford for that matter.
Teddy still has a bit more to prove IMO and that knee makes me nervous. His other knee also! The non contact injury still freaks me out. I think Teddy may have the biggest upside of all of these guys but that knee....
Quote: @Poiple said:
With teams willing to pay 30 million a year for Cousins I would be pretty happy with 16 million a year for Case, or maybe for Bradford for that matter.
Teddy still has a bit more to prove IMO and that knee makes me nervous. His other knee also! The non contact injury still freaks me out. I think Teddy may have the biggest upside of all of these guys but that knee....
I know the team is contending that his perfectly healthy knee blew up, but I just have to call BS. There had to be prior damage that gave out, or some contact that we arent hearing about.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Poiple said:
With teams willing to pay 30 million a year for Cousins I would be pretty happy with 16 million a year for Case, or maybe for Bradford for that matter.
Teddy still has a bit more to prove IMO and that knee makes me nervous. His other knee also! The non contact injury still freaks me out. I think Teddy may have the biggest upside of all of these guys but that knee....
I know the team is contending that his perfectly healthy knee blew up, but I just have to call BS. There had to be prior damage that gave out, or some contact that we arent hearing about. Cook's injury was non-contact as well.
I doubt anyone believes it was just a matter of the leg coming apart. It has been speculated that the nasty juke he put on a SF defender the day before was the most likely cause of injury. And then planting and throwing causes rotation and twisting of the left knee.
So yes, the non-contact part is overblown IMO.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Poiple said:
With teams willing to pay 30 million a year for Cousins I would be pretty happy with 16 million a year for Case, or maybe for Bradford for that matter.
Teddy still has a bit more to prove IMO and that knee makes me nervous. His other knee also! The non contact injury still freaks me out. I think Teddy may have the biggest upside of all of these guys but that knee....
I know the team is contending that his perfectly healthy knee blew up, but I just have to call BS. There had to be prior damage that gave out, or some contact that we arent hearing about.
If it is so then the Vikes would have to admit they either missed it in the physical screening or they knew about it and kept it quiet. Neither would be something they want to let out.
The last choice and maybe the worst is that he has something physically weak about his knees. NFL athletes tend to be super human compared to most of us and maybe Teddy just has mortal knees?
He was really coming around that last time he played and made three back to back throws that looked like something Bradford would make. I really thought he turned a corner and was destined for stardom. The kid is a HUGE question mark.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Poiple said:
With teams willing to pay 30 million a year for Cousins I would be pretty happy with 16 million a year for Case, or maybe for Bradford for that matter.
Teddy still has a bit more to prove IMO and that knee makes me nervous. His other knee also! The non contact injury still freaks me out. I think Teddy may have the biggest upside of all of these guys but that knee....
I know the team is contending that his perfectly healthy knee blew up, but I just have to call BS. There had to be prior damage that gave out, or some contact that we arent hearing about. Cook's injury was non-contact as well.
I doubt anyone believes it was just a matter of the leg coming apart. It has been speculated that the nasty juke he put on a SF defender the day before was the most likely cause of injury. And then planting and throwing causes rotation and twisting of the left knee.
So yes, the non-contact part is overblown IMO.
Ive seen other RBs blow a knee on a juke in a game. It might be just me but I put a QB doing while running cones in practice in a different catagory. Maybe I shouldnt but i do.
I think it was the extent of the injury also. One minute he is running cones and the next his foot is on backwards. That is very freaky to me.
running cones? Who said anything about running cones? He put a RB type of juke in the preseason game the day or 2 before.
Quote: @Poiple said:
@ greediron said:
Cook's injury was non-contact as well.
I doubt anyone believes it was just a matter of the leg coming apart. It has been speculated that the nasty juke he put on a SF defender the day before was the most likely cause of injury. And then planting and throwing causes rotation and twisting of the left knee.
So yes, the non-contact part is overblown IMO.
Ive seen other RBs blow a knee on a juke in a game. It might be just me but I put a QB doing while running cones in practice in a different catagory. Maybe I shouldnt but i do.
I think it was the extent of the injury also. One minute he is running cones and the next his foot is on backwards. That is very freaky to me.
Quote: @greediron said:
running cones? Who said anything about running cones? He put a RB type of juke in the preseason game the day or 2 before.
@ Poiple said:
@ greediron said:
Cook's injury was non-contact as well.
I doubt anyone believes it was just a matter of the leg coming apart. It has been speculated that the nasty juke he put on a SF defender the day before was the most likely cause of injury. And then planting and throwing causes rotation and twisting of the left knee.
So yes, the non-contact part is overblown IMO.
Ive seen other RBs blow a knee on a juke in a game. It might be just me but I put a QB doing while running cones in practice in a different catagory. Maybe I shouldnt but i do.
I think it was the extent of the injury also. One minute he is running cones and the next his foot is on backwards. That is very freaky to me.
Back when it happened I thought I had read it was a cone drill. I may be wrong, as I often am as my memory slips and am always happy to be corrected.
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