Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
People like black and white. Good or bad. Competitive rebuild is too nebulous for most fans.
This. Folks complain about the living in today and tomorrow as if that's a bad thing. But that's what they should be doing.
Unless you believe the team should be torn down, which I think is absurd, you’re literally trying to set up a dominant roster for the future, while remaining a playoff team.
I believe that is called purgatory, or better known as mediocrity. Making the playoffs hasnt meant anything since they went to half the conference making the playoffs, hell it meant little more before that even, how often does a surprise team win a superbowl that hasnt undergone some major changes to really refocus their roster and add talent? ( the giants a few years back comes to mind as the last) I see "competitive rebuild" as ass covering for dragging out a decade of employment and not really every improving the teams chances for a Lombardi, break some damn eggs and get to making omlets IMO, but we are stuck for another year so buckle up for another exciting adventure.
I get the fan frustration; I was 17 when the Vikings played the Raider for their last SB appearance of that century.
But c'mon James; 13 wins, @ Buffalo, The Colts comeback of our lifetime, taking the Norris Crown from GB, How many last minute wins?
Yah gotta admit, that was a fun ride.
You saw great wins, I saw sheer dumb luck and embarrassing football. I was at that Colts shitshow, only thing worse than our worst half of football was the Colts even worse second half, better game calling by indy and we dont win that one, Buffalo took a fumbled snap in their own end zone, again another mistake by the other team, not something the Vikings forced or did right other than falling on the loose ball, fun in the moment, but in reality just really dumb luck, we had 1 (?) Win last year that we just went out and took care of business ourselves IIRC, the rest were struggles or catching a team in a really bad time,, and that to me wasn't a sign of a good team. Some of those losses were flat out embarrassing and those were against the teams in the playoff contention at the end.
Dumb luck. No doubt the Vikings had their fair share last year. But since you were at the Colts game, you know the Colts did as well. They didn't earn that 33-0 lead with long drives. They were mostly unearned runs. Blocked punt for a TD. A pick six in which the receiver turned the wrong way. Weird shit. Dumb luck.
Did you call it dumb luck the year before too? The year we lost 7 games by one score. 5 games in the final seconds. A mystery fumble by Cook in OT. Bizarre phantom penalties. A year that saw Hunter go down for the 2nd year in a row. A year in which we lost Harry, Cook, and Tomlinson to the Covid list. A year that saw us lose Thielen in the middle of the playoff race. Then Cousins in a must-win game against the Packers. Weird shit. Dumb luck. It goes both ways.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
People like black and white. Good or bad. Competitive rebuild is too nebulous for most fans.
This. Folks complain about the living in today and tomorrow as if that's a bad thing. But that's what they should be doing.
Unless you believe the team should be torn down, which I think is absurd, you’re literally trying to set up a dominant roster for the future, while remaining a playoff team.
I believe that is called purgatory, or better known as mediocrity. Making the playoffs hasnt meant anything since they went to half the conference making the playoffs, hell it meant little more before that even, how often does a surprise team win a superbowl that hasnt undergone some major changes to really refocus their roster and add talent? ( the giants a few years back comes to mind as the last) I see "competitive rebuild" as ass covering for dragging out a decade of employment and not really every improving the teams chances for a Lombardi, break some damn eggs and get to making omlets IMO, but we are stuck for another year so buckle up for another exciting adventure.
I know you think the panacea to our misery is a tank and tear down, but I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think we're far FAR more likely to win a Super Bowl in the next 2-4 years doing exactly what we're doing.
Or we could take the Lions/Bears approach. Tear it down, hire a new coach every 3-4 years, a new GM every 8-9 years. Perpetual suck. The Lions superbowl of the last decade was beating the packers and making sure neither got to the playoffs.
When was the last time the team took a big reset season or two? Hardly in the realm of the teams doing it 2 or 3 times a decade.
There is some analytics work out there by Eric Eager that suggests it's easier to reach the top by bottoming out than by sitting in the middle year after year. And I'm sure Kwesi knows this because he drops those hints about it that I mentioned earlier. But fans seem to think that a teardown somehow equates to turning into a perpetually bad franchise.
Those franchises are perpetually bad because of bad ownership that can't hire the right people. I'm not a fan of our owners but they have managed to hire relatively competent people who have kept the team in the middle for 18 years. If Kwesi had free reign to tear this down and make a QBOTF the focus, I'd be all in. But we are where we are with risk-averse ownership whose first priority is cash flow.
Like the Vikings, I come out somewhere in the middle. I think KAM is doing a fine job at GM with the hand he's been dealt. Glass Booth has continued to be hurt but Evans looked solid when on the field. Cine was a freak injury that I'm hopeful he'll bounce back from.
A Jefferson extension needs to be done before things get ugly. When will that be? I'm not sure but I'll bet Kwesi has a feel for it. If we have to trade another top tier WR away like we did with Diggs, that's unforgivable. So I'm sure KAM knows he needs to get that deal done.
Cook? Yeah I'd have kept him around for another year if I had my druthers and they don't think the off-field stuff will affect his availability this season.
Our pass rush will likely stink again. Outside Hunter there's no proven QB killer in the front 7. Schemes can hide some warts but when teams go to hurry up and the hog mollies are sucking wind in the fourth quarter who is going to make a play? Also, the idea of Harry blitzing up the yin yang is fun but can the rest of our secondary hold up while Harry tries to get home?
Kirk... he's good but you can only ride a fun roller coaster for so long until you wanna hurl. Again, not sure when exactly we'll need the barfbag. Maybe this year, maybe not.
I see a 9ish win team in 2023 that will put us well out of the running for the top QBs so where does that leave us in 2024?
For me the goal for this franchise should be deep playoff run every year. The comps to the Bears (who have been to a SB much more recently than us) and Lions don't hold any weight. Being better than two terrible teams is like saying, "I don't have a drinking problem because my two friends drink more than I do!" That might be true but if you're falling down at the bar what is it worth?
Ultimately I'm at peace with what I think 2023 is going to be and I'm hoping for a big reset in 2024. If our draft doesn't include a QB next year then I'll be in panic mode. But I think it will. And in the meantime I'll enjoy the season like I always do and hope for the best. We have lots of talent on offense so at the very least it will be good for my typically Vikings-heavy fantasy team. So that should be fun.
The Wilfs... good owners who are definitely content with mediocrity or slightly above and anyone who thinks otherwise I will respectfully agree to disagree. There's a lot of circus owners in the NFL (Irsay, Jones, Davis, Kraft, Snyder [RIP]) so I'm glad we don't have to deal with that, but again, see the drinking analogy I posted above.
I'm ranting but at the end of the day, SKOL.
EDIT- Anyone know what came of the Dalton Risner visit? Was hoping to read that he'd signed by now.
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ greediron said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
People like black and white. Good or bad. Competitive rebuild is too nebulous for most fans.
This. Folks complain about the living in today and tomorrow as if that's a bad thing. But that's what they should be doing.
Unless you believe the team should be torn down, which I think is absurd, you’re literally trying to set up a dominant roster for the future, while remaining a playoff team.
I believe that is called purgatory, or better known as mediocrity. Making the playoffs hasnt meant anything since they went to half the conference making the playoffs, hell it meant little more before that even, how often does a surprise team win a superbowl that hasnt undergone some major changes to really refocus their roster and add talent? ( the giants a few years back comes to mind as the last) I see "competitive rebuild" as ass covering for dragging out a decade of employment and not really every improving the teams chances for a Lombardi, break some damn eggs and get to making omlets IMO, but we are stuck for another year so buckle up for another exciting adventure.
I know you think the panacea to our misery is a tank and tear down, but I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think we're far FAR more likely to win a Super Bowl in the next 2-4 years doing exactly what we're doing.
Or we could take the Lions/Bears approach. Tear it down, hire a new coach every 3-4 years, a new GM every 8-9 years. Perpetual suck. The Lions superbowl of the last decade was beating the packers and making sure neither got to the playoffs.
When was the last time the team took a big reset season or two? Hardly in the realm of the teams doing it 2 or 3 times a decade.
There is some analytics work out there by Eric Eager that suggests it's easier to reach the top by bottoming out than by sitting in the middle year after year. And I'm sure Kwesi knows this because he drops those hints about it that I mentioned earlier. But fans seem to think that a teardown somehow equates to turning into a perpetually bad franchise.
Those franchises are perpetually bad because of bad ownership that can't hire the right people. I'm not a fan of our owners but they have managed to hire relatively competent people who have kept the team in the middle for 18 years. If Kwesi had free reign to tear this down and make a QBOTF the focus, I'd be all in. But we are where we are with risk-averse ownership whose first priority is cash flow.
I think the misperception is in the idea that the Vikings are "sitting in the middle." I think the '21 Vikings were an 11-win team who lost a couple games they should've won. And the '22 Vikings were an 11-win team who won a couple games they should've lost.
I think we can reasonably expect marginal improvement from both the offense (year two) and the defense (Flores). I think we can also expect some regression to the mean in terms of luck. That means the Vikings win 11 to 13 games, but maybe in a more convincing fashion. But that's legitimate contention and not sitting in the middle, and certainly not a candidate for a tear down.
Quote: @pattersaur said:
Like the Vikings, I come out somewhere in the middle. I think KAM is doing a fine job at GM with the hand he's been dealt. Glass Booth has continued to be hurt but Evans looked solid when on the field. Cine was a freak injury that I'm hopeful he'll bounce back from.
A Jefferson extension needs to be done before things get ugly. When will that be? I'm not sure but I'll bet Kwesi has a feel for it. If we have to trade another top tier WR away like we did with Diggs, that's unforgivable. So I'm sure KAM knows he needs to get that deal done.
Cook? Yeah I'd have kept him around for another year if I had my druthers and they don't think the off-field stuff will affect his availability this season.
Our pass rush will likely stink again. Outside Hunter there's no proven QB killer in the front 7. Schemes can hide some warts but when teams go to hurry up and the hog mollies are sucking wind in the fourth quarter who is going to make a play? Also, the idea of Harry blitzing up the yin yang is fun but can the rest of our secondary hold up while Harry tries to get home?
Kirk... he's good but you can only ride a fun roller coaster for so long until you wanna hurl. Again, not sure when exactly we'll need the barfbag. Maybe this year, maybe not.
I see a 9ish win team in 2023 that will put us well out of the running for the top QBs so where does that leave us in 2024?
For me the goal for this franchise should be deep playoff run every year. The comps to the Bears (who have been to a SB much more recently than us) and Lions don't hold any weight. Being better than two terrible teams is like saying, "I don't have a drinking problem because my two friends drink more than I do!" That might be true but if you're falling down at the bar what is it worth?
Ultimately I'm at peace with what I think 2023 is going to be and I'm hoping for a big reset in 2024. If our draft doesn't include a QB next year then I'll be in panic mode. But I think it will. And in the meantime I'll enjoy the season like I always do and hope for the best. We have lots of talent on offense so at the very least it will be good for my typically Vikings-heavy fantasy team. So that should be fun.
The Wilfs... good owners who are definitely content with mediocrity or slightly above and anyone who thinks otherwise I will respectfully agree to disagree. There's a lot of circus owners in the NFL (Irsay, Jones, Davis, Kraft, Snyder [RIP]) so I'm glad we don't have to deal with that, but again, see the drinking analogy I posted above.
I'm ranting but at the end of the day, SKOL.
EDIT- Anyone know what came of the Dalton Risner visit? Was hoping to read that he'd signed by now.
Not sure what it is but every owner of a Minnesota franchise is content with mediocrity. The goal of the Twins is to just make the playoffs, be damn if they try to win a playoff series. Win the division and keep the fans hoping for next season.
The Wolves had been a disaster the entire time Taylor has owned them except for the season with Garnett and Sprewell. Then it was back to being just another franchise with loyal but disappointed fans.
The Wild will they ever win a first round series in the playoffs? They always seem to play well the first half of the season then fight just to make the playoffs.
Wash Rinse Repeat for all four franchises.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
People like black and white. Good or bad. Competitive rebuild is too nebulous for most fans.
This. Folks complain about the living in today and tomorrow as if that's a bad thing. But that's what they should be doing.
Unless you believe the team should be torn down, which I think is absurd, you’re literally trying to set up a dominant roster for the future, while remaining a playoff team.
I believe that is called purgatory, or better known as mediocrity. Making the playoffs hasnt meant anything since they went to half the conference making the playoffs, hell it meant little more before that even, how often does a surprise team win a superbowl that hasnt undergone some major changes to really refocus their roster and add talent? ( the giants a few years back comes to mind as the last) I see "competitive rebuild" as ass covering for dragging out a decade of employment and not really every improving the teams chances for a Lombardi, break some damn eggs and get to making omlets IMO, but we are stuck for another year so buckle up for another exciting adventure.
I get the fan frustration; I was 17 when the Vikings played the Raider for their last SB appearance of that century.
But c'mon James; 13 wins, @ Buffalo, The Colts comeback of our lifetime, taking the Norris Crown from GB, How many last minute wins?
Yah gotta admit, that was a fun ride.
You saw great wins, I saw sheer dumb luck and embarrassing football. I was at that Colts shitshow, only thing worse than our worst half of football was the Colts even worse second half, better game calling by indy and we dont win that one, Buffalo took a fumbled snap in their own end zone, again another mistake by the other team, not something the Vikings forced or did right other than falling on the loose ball, fun in the moment, but in reality just really dumb luck, we had 1 (?) Win last year that we just went out and took care of business ourselves IIRC, the rest were struggles or catching a team in a really bad time,, and that to me wasn't a sign of a good team. Some of those losses were flat out embarrassing and those were against the teams in the playoff contention at the end.
Dumb luck. No doubt the Vikings had their fair share last year. But since you were at the Colts game, you know the Colts did as well. They didn't earn that 33-0 lead with long drives. They were mostly unearned runs. Blocked punt for a TD. A pick six in which the receiver turned the wrong way. Weird shit. Dumb luck.
Did you call it dumb luck the year before too? The year we lost 7 games by one score. 5 games in the final seconds. A mystery fumble by Cook in OT. Bizarre phantom penalties. A year that saw Hunter go down for the 2nd year in a row. A year in which we lost Harry, Cook, and Tomlinson to the Covid list. A year that saw us lose Thielen in the middle of the playoff race. Then Cousins in a must-win game against the Packers. Weird shit. Dumb luck. It goes both ways.
it wasnt dumb luck on the colts part... it was shit play on the Vikings part that led to that lead, dumb luck is a fumbled QB exchange landing at the feet of EK in the endzone, a ball thrown up for grabs and JJ able to make a ridiculous catch, getting the phins on their 3rd sting QB, the saints on the back up. sometimes things just happen, this team wasnt as good as their record indicated last year, I would say by at least 3 or 4 wins, that team was a 9-10 win team, and until I see otherwise this one looks to be the same against the opponents we will face IMO.
Its ok though, you dont have to agree.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
People like black and white. Good or bad. Competitive rebuild is too nebulous for most fans.
This. Folks complain about the living in today and tomorrow as if that's a bad thing. But that's what they should be doing.
Unless you believe the team should be torn down, which I think is absurd, you’re literally trying to set up a dominant roster for the future, while remaining a playoff team.
I believe that is called purgatory, or better known as mediocrity. Making the playoffs hasnt meant anything since they went to half the conference making the playoffs, hell it meant little more before that even, how often does a surprise team win a superbowl that hasnt undergone some major changes to really refocus their roster and add talent? ( the giants a few years back comes to mind as the last) I see "competitive rebuild" as ass covering for dragging out a decade of employment and not really every improving the teams chances for a Lombardi, break some damn eggs and get to making omlets IMO, but we are stuck for another year so buckle up for another exciting adventure.
I get the fan frustration; I was 17 when the Vikings played the Raider for their last SB appearance of that century.
But c'mon James; 13 wins, @ Buffalo, The Colts comeback of our lifetime, taking the Norris Crown from GB, How many last minute wins?
Yah gotta admit, that was a fun ride.
You saw great wins, I saw sheer dumb luck and embarrassing football. I was at that Colts shitshow, only thing worse than our worst half of football was the Colts even worse second half, better game calling by indy and we dont win that one, Buffalo took a fumbled snap in their own end zone, again another mistake by the other team, not something the Vikings forced or did right other than falling on the loose ball, fun in the moment, but in reality just really dumb luck, we had 1 (?) Win last year that we just went out and took care of business ourselves IIRC, the rest were struggles or catching a team in a really bad time,, and that to me wasn't a sign of a good team. Some of those losses were flat out embarrassing and those were against the teams in the playoff contention at the end.
Dumb luck. No doubt the Vikings had their fair share last year. But since you were at the Colts game, you know the Colts did as well. They didn't earn that 33-0 lead with long drives. They were mostly unearned runs. Blocked punt for a TD. A pick six in which the receiver turned the wrong way. Weird shit. Dumb luck.
Did you call it dumb luck the year before too? The year we lost 7 games by one score. 5 games in the final seconds. A mystery fumble by Cook in OT. Bizarre phantom penalties. A year that saw Hunter go down for the 2nd year in a row. A year in which we lost Harry, Cook, and Tomlinson to the Covid list. A year that saw us lose Thielen in the middle of the playoff race. Then Cousins in a must-win game against the Packers. Weird shit. Dumb luck. It goes both ways.
it wasnt dumb luck on the colts part... it was shit play on the Vikings part that led to that lead, dumb luck is a fumbled QB exchange landing at the feet of EK in the endzone, a ball thrown up for grabs and JJ able to make a ridiculous catch, getting the phins on their 3rd sting QB, the saints on the back up. sometimes things just happen, this team wasnt as good as their record indicated last year, I would say by at least 3 or 4 wins, that team was a 9-10 win team, and until I see otherwise this one looks to be the same against the opponents we will face IMO.
Its ok though, you dont have to agree.
The best catch ever wasn't dumb luck. You put it up there for your best player to make a play and he did. There was some luck involved, but not dumb luck. Allen fumbling the snap wasn't dumb luck either. Harrison Phillips made that play by drawing the centers focus right before the snap and then EK saw it and went for it.
And as MB said, the previous year was lots of bad dumb luck.
Dumb luck, good luck, bad luck...
Whichever kinda luck we want to paint it, the reality is winnings vs losing in the NFL is a razor thin margin.
I think that's the kinda thinking cerebral QB's know and ascribe by - at least thats what Mahomes and Kirko were saying in QB on Netflix.
Whatever the case with luck, we certainly were not as good as our win total would lead people to believe as evidenced by our mostly predictable first round loss at home to the Giants. And I think we can all safely assume the good fortune isn't likely to carry over to a second season just based on the law of averages. Where that leads us is anybody guess. Again I just think this smells like a .500 football team and that once again does not play into our favor when we need to identify and find a QBOTF
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
Whatever the case with luck, we certainly were not as good as our win total would lead people to believe as evidenced by our mostly predictable first round loss at home to the Giants. And I think we can all safely assume the good fortune isn't likely to carry over to a second season just based on the law of averages. Where that leads us is anybody guess. Again I just think this smells like a .500 football team and that once again does not play into our favor when we need to identify and find a QBOTF
And Zimmer was snakebite most years too...
I think most of us are not expecting a horseshoe up our asz's in 23, but we're waiting to see if the offense can take a next step, or not lost a step w/out Cook, and if the D can move to some level of respectability.
Personally, I think 9 is the floor.
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