One of the dumbest things about NFL media coverage is rating and ranking drafts immediately after they happen. Wait 3 years and tell me what you think.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Ouch...
I think it was a pretty average draft. Hard to do much when you don't have a second round pick, which is a hugely key piece in maneuvering up or having an "on paper" nice looking draft. If you don't count Hockenson as part of the draft, then yeah, on the surface it pales in comparison to a lot of team's draft tally's. Even counting Hockenson, it's still fair to wonder if we would have been better off keeping our pick and taking advantage of maybe the deepest TE group ever and having say, Michael Mayer or Kincaid on a rookie contract. Now we are going to be breaking the bank on Hockenson, after inexplicably giving Oliver a 21-million dollar contract, and still having to manage the cap to fit in JJ's soon to be record breaking contract. Oh and there is still the contract issue of Kirko on top of everything else. I don't know man, it just seems like whenever this front office does anything, it's questionable on if it was the right decision to make at the time. I would just like for once to be able to stand up and applaud the front office and say "great fucking move!" Two years in and I'm still waiting for it to happen...
Remember the Hock trade was because ISJ was hurt... again (another "great" Spielman pick, btw), and the Vikes wanted a replacement TE for their playoff run. Hock not only replaced ISJ, but he might end up being the best TE in Viking's history. I'd much rather have that than unproven drafted rookies with the #2 pick.
Disagree about ISJ. If he stays healthy in Pittsburgh, he's going to be a real weapon for them.
But I totally agree on TJH. Proven, 25 year old, 2X Pro Bowl TE and there are some questioning giving up a 2nd round pick for that? Madness.
It's not so much about the player as it is the position he plays and money allocation after forking over $21 million to Oliver in free agency. How much money do we want tied up at the TE position with JJ about to break the bank on a new contract, Darrisaw coming up, and Cousins contract still up in the air? I think all things considered I would have preferred taking advantage of the talent depth in this draft and having a productive TE on a rookie deal for 4 or 5 years while our salary cap gets sorted out.
A rookie TE that might be OJ Howard or Maxx Williams for all we know. Proven vs. Unproven is the key. Given all the busts in the draft, that is an enormous distinction. It's also why this team didn't (and wouldn't) trade Cousins for a seat at the craps table.
I get it. Hockenson is a really good player, but that's not the point. The point is how much cap do you want tied up at that position when we have other upcoming big money contracts that need to get done and a defense that still needs upgrading? The Lions traded him because they didn't want to allocate the big money contract it would have taken to retain him and chose to take the draft picks and future cap flexibility. They also smartly took advantage of the historic talent and depth at the TE position in this draft and now have a young, high upside TE in LaPorta on a rookie deal who they don't have to pay for four years. Meanwhile, Hockenson got this franchise no closer to winning a Super Bowl last year as we would have without him. We could have started Mundt and lost to the Giants at home. I'm not so sure the Lions weren't the wiser team in this deal
Man, I just don't understand the way you think. LOL.
We went all in and tried to make a run last year by trading for Hockensen. We lost at home to the Giants and got bounced. So the all in move didn't work out as expected. It's fair to question after the fact on whether it was a wise strategy when you take into account those other factors I mentioned. That's all. Nothing complicated about it.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Ouch...
I think it was a pretty average draft. Hard to do much when you don't have a second round pick, which is a hugely key piece in maneuvering up or having an "on paper" nice looking draft. If you don't count Hockenson as part of the draft, then yeah, on the surface it pales in comparison to a lot of team's draft tally's. Even counting Hockenson, it's still fair to wonder if we would have been better off keeping our pick and taking advantage of maybe the deepest TE group ever and having say, Michael Mayer or Kincaid on a rookie contract. Now we are going to be breaking the bank on Hockenson, after inexplicably giving Oliver a 21-million dollar contract, and still having to manage the cap to fit in JJ's soon to be record breaking contract. Oh and there is still the contract issue of Kirko on top of everything else. I don't know man, it just seems like whenever this front office does anything, it's questionable on if it was the right decision to make at the time. I would just like for once to be able to stand up and applaud the front office and say "great fucking move!" Two years in and I'm still waiting for it to happen...
Remember the Hock trade was because ISJ was hurt... again (another "great" Spielman pick, btw), and the Vikes wanted a replacement TE for their playoff run. Hock not only replaced ISJ, but he might end up being the best TE in Viking's history. I'd much rather have that than unproven drafted rookies with the #2 pick.
Disagree about ISJ. If he stays healthy in Pittsburgh, he's going to be a real weapon for them.
But I totally agree on TJH. Proven, 25 year old, 2X Pro Bowl TE and there are some questioning giving up a 2nd round pick for that? Madness.
It's not so much about the player as it is the position he plays and money allocation after forking over $21 million to Oliver in free agency. How much money do we want tied up at the TE position with JJ about to break the bank on a new contract, Darrisaw coming up, and Cousins contract still up in the air? I think all things considered I would have preferred taking advantage of the talent depth in this draft and having a productive TE on a rookie deal for 4 or 5 years while our salary cap gets sorted out.
A rookie TE that might be OJ Howard or Maxx Williams for all we know. Proven vs. Unproven is the key. Given all the busts in the draft, that is an enormous distinction. It's also why this team didn't (and wouldn't) trade Cousins for a seat at the craps table.
I get it. Hockenson is a really good player, but that's not the point. The point is how much cap do you want tied up at that position when we have other upcoming big money contracts that need to get done and a defense that still needs upgrading? The Lions traded him because they didn't want to allocate the big money contract it would have taken to retain him and chose to take the draft picks and future cap flexibility. They also smartly took advantage of the historic talent and depth at the TE position in this draft and now have a young, high upside TE in LaPorta on a rookie deal who they don't have to pay for four years. Meanwhile, Hockenson got this franchise no closer to winning a Super Bowl last year as we would have without him. We could have started Mundt and lost to the Giants at home. I'm not so sure the Lions weren't the wiser team in this deal
Man, I just don't understand the way you think. LOL.
We went all in and tried to make a run last year by trading for Hockensen. We lost at home to the Giants and got bounced. So the all in move didn't work out as expected. It's fair to question after the fact on whether it was a wise strategy when you take into account those other factors I mentioned. That's all. Nothing complicated about it.
I don't get the "all in" thing. He wasn't a rental. If he were 30 I could maybe see your point. But he's 25. You either want good, young players or you don't. TJH is a good, young player, who will likely play another 4 or 5 years for us, and play a key role in what looks to be a very good offense.
To say no to that because, oh no, you have to pay him, or because there may or may not be a good player in the draft the following season, is just crazy to me.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Ouch...
I think it was a pretty average draft. Hard to do much when you don't have a second round pick, which is a hugely key piece in maneuvering up or having an "on paper" nice looking draft. If you don't count Hockenson as part of the draft, then yeah, on the surface it pales in comparison to a lot of team's draft tally's. Even counting Hockenson, it's still fair to wonder if we would have been better off keeping our pick and taking advantage of maybe the deepest TE group ever and having say, Michael Mayer or Kincaid on a rookie contract. Now we are going to be breaking the bank on Hockenson, after inexplicably giving Oliver a 21-million dollar contract, and still having to manage the cap to fit in JJ's soon to be record breaking contract. Oh and there is still the contract issue of Kirko on top of everything else. I don't know man, it just seems like whenever this front office does anything, it's questionable on if it was the right decision to make at the time. I would just like for once to be able to stand up and applaud the front office and say "great fucking move!" Two years in and I'm still waiting for it to happen...
Remember the Hock trade was because ISJ was hurt... again (another "great" Spielman pick, btw), and the Vikes wanted a replacement TE for their playoff run. Hock not only replaced ISJ, but he might end up being the best TE in Viking's history. I'd much rather have that than unproven drafted rookies with the #2 pick.
Disagree about ISJ. If he stays healthy in Pittsburgh, he's going to be a real weapon for them.
But I totally agree on TJH. Proven, 25 year old, 2X Pro Bowl TE and there are some questioning giving up a 2nd round pick for that? Madness.
It's not so much about the player as it is the position he plays and money allocation after forking over $21 million to Oliver in free agency. How much money do we want tied up at the TE position with JJ about to break the bank on a new contract, Darrisaw coming up, and Cousins contract still up in the air? I think all things considered I would have preferred taking advantage of the talent depth in this draft and having a productive TE on a rookie deal for 4 or 5 years while our salary cap gets sorted out.
A rookie TE that might be OJ Howard or Maxx Williams for all we know. Proven vs. Unproven is the key. Given all the busts in the draft, that is an enormous distinction. It's also why this team didn't (and wouldn't) trade Cousins for a seat at the craps table.
I get it. Hockenson is a really good player, but that's not the point. The point is how much cap do you want tied up at that position when we have other upcoming big money contracts that need to get done and a defense that still needs upgrading? The Lions traded him because they didn't want to allocate the big money contract it would have taken to retain him and chose to take the draft picks and future cap flexibility. They also smartly took advantage of the historic talent and depth at the TE position in this draft and now have a young, high upside TE in LaPorta on a rookie deal who they don't have to pay for four years. Meanwhile, Hockenson got this franchise no closer to winning a Super Bowl last year as we would have without him. We could have started Mundt and lost to the Giants at home. I'm not so sure the Lions weren't the wiser team in this deal
Man, I just don't understand the way you think. LOL.
We went all in and tried to make a run last year by trading for Hockensen. We lost at home to the Giants and got bounced. So the all in move didn't work out as expected. It's fair to question after the fact on whether it was a wise strategy when you take into account those other factors I mentioned. That's all. Nothing complicated about it.
I don't get the "all in" thing. He wasn't a rental. If he were 30 I could maybe see your point. But he's 25. You either want good, young players or you don't. TJH is a good, young player, who will likely play another 4 or 5 years for us, and play a key role in what looks to be a very good offense.
To say no to that because, oh no, you have to pay him, or because there may or may not be a good player in the draft the following season, is just crazy to me.
I'm not arguing that he is a good young player. Kwesi was trying to get this team to the Super Bowl last year and made the move to acquire him. He is going to cost somewhere in the realm of $15 million a year on an extension. I'm saying with the talent pool in this draft and with the upcoming other large contracts we will need to take care of, was it in our best interest to make that move? It could be argued that it wasn't
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Ouch...
I think it was a pretty average draft. Hard to do much when you don't have a second round pick, which is a hugely key piece in maneuvering up or having an "on paper" nice looking draft. If you don't count Hockenson as part of the draft, then yeah, on the surface it pales in comparison to a lot of team's draft tally's. Even counting Hockenson, it's still fair to wonder if we would have been better off keeping our pick and taking advantage of maybe the deepest TE group ever and having say, Michael Mayer or Kincaid on a rookie contract. Now we are going to be breaking the bank on Hockenson, after inexplicably giving Oliver a 21-million dollar contract, and still having to manage the cap to fit in JJ's soon to be record breaking contract. Oh and there is still the contract issue of Kirko on top of everything else. I don't know man, it just seems like whenever this front office does anything, it's questionable on if it was the right decision to make at the time. I would just like for once to be able to stand up and applaud the front office and say "great fucking move!" Two years in and I'm still waiting for it to happen...
Remember the Hock trade was because ISJ was hurt... again (another "great" Spielman pick, btw), and the Vikes wanted a replacement TE for their playoff run. Hock not only replaced ISJ, but he might end up being the best TE in Viking's history. I'd much rather have that than unproven drafted rookies with the #2 pick.
Disagree about ISJ. If he stays healthy in Pittsburgh, he's going to be a real weapon for them.
But I totally agree on TJH. Proven, 25 year old, 2X Pro Bowl TE and there are some questioning giving up a 2nd round pick for that? Madness.
It's not so much about the player as it is the position he plays and money allocation after forking over $21 million to Oliver in free agency. How much money do we want tied up at the TE position with JJ about to break the bank on a new contract, Darrisaw coming up, and Cousins contract still up in the air? I think all things considered I would have preferred taking advantage of the talent depth in this draft and having a productive TE on a rookie deal for 4 or 5 years while our salary cap gets sorted out.
A rookie TE that might be OJ Howard or Maxx Williams for all we know. Proven vs. Unproven is the key. Given all the busts in the draft, that is an enormous distinction. It's also why this team didn't (and wouldn't) trade Cousins for a seat at the craps table.
I get it. Hockenson is a really good player, but that's not the point. The point is how much cap do you want tied up at that position when we have other upcoming big money contracts that need to get done and a defense that still needs upgrading? The Lions traded him because they didn't want to allocate the big money contract it would have taken to retain him and chose to take the draft picks and future cap flexibility. They also smartly took advantage of the historic talent and depth at the TE position in this draft and now have a young, high upside TE in LaPorta on a rookie deal who they don't have to pay for four years. Meanwhile, Hockenson got this franchise no closer to winning a Super Bowl last year as we would have without him. We could have started Mundt and lost to the Giants at home. I'm not so sure the Lions weren't the wiser team in this deal
Man, I just don't understand the way you think. LOL.
We went all in and tried to make a run last year by trading for Hockensen. We lost at home to the Giants and got bounced. So the all in move didn't work out as expected. It's fair to question after the fact on whether it was a wise strategy when you take into account those other factors I mentioned. That's all. Nothing complicated about it.
Exactly right. The trade was to help get last year's team to the next level with their playoff run. Unfortunately, as good as TJ and the offense was, they couldn't overcome the horrendous decision to bring on Donatell and his absolute joke of a defense. We knew that we would have to pay TJ on an extension and I was OK with that. With Thielen gone, we really don't have a ton of money tied up at WR. Cook will be gone as well so having the one of your best playmakers on the Team as your TE is no different than KC with Kelce. Hockenson had the 2nd most receptions of any TE in the NFL last year. So, I guess I'm looking at it from the standpoint that he is part of our receiving corps and is critical to this offense's success moving forward. Osborne is inconsistent, and Addison will have to prove himself as a capable starter with JJ. Oliver is the head scratcher. I like what he can do in the run game, but not for the money we have invested when we have needs elsewhere.
Quote: @TBro said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ supafreak84 said:
Ouch...
I think it was a pretty average draft. Hard to do much when you don't have a second round pick, which is a hugely key piece in maneuvering up or having an "on paper" nice looking draft. If you don't count Hockenson as part of the draft, then yeah, on the surface it pales in comparison to a lot of team's draft tally's. Even counting Hockenson, it's still fair to wonder if we would have been better off keeping our pick and taking advantage of maybe the deepest TE group ever and having say, Michael Mayer or Kincaid on a rookie contract. Now we are going to be breaking the bank on Hockenson, after inexplicably giving Oliver a 21-million dollar contract, and still having to manage the cap to fit in JJ's soon to be record breaking contract. Oh and there is still the contract issue of Kirko on top of everything else. I don't know man, it just seems like whenever this front office does anything, it's questionable on if it was the right decision to make at the time. I would just like for once to be able to stand up and applaud the front office and say "great fucking move!" Two years in and I'm still waiting for it to happen...
Remember the Hock trade was because ISJ was hurt... again (another "great" Spielman pick, btw), and the Vikes wanted a replacement TE for their playoff run. Hock not only replaced ISJ, but he might end up being the best TE in Viking's history. I'd much rather have that than unproven drafted rookies with the #2 pick.
Disagree about ISJ. If he stays healthy in Pittsburgh, he's going to be a real weapon for them.
But I totally agree on TJH. Proven, 25 year old, 2X Pro Bowl TE and there are some questioning giving up a 2nd round pick for that? Madness.
It's not so much about the player as it is the position he plays and money allocation after forking over $21 million to Oliver in free agency. How much money do we want tied up at the TE position with JJ about to break the bank on a new contract, Darrisaw coming up, and Cousins contract still up in the air? I think all things considered I would have preferred taking advantage of the talent depth in this draft and having a productive TE on a rookie deal for 4 or 5 years while our salary cap gets sorted out.
A rookie TE that might be OJ Howard or Maxx Williams for all we know. Proven vs. Unproven is the key. Given all the busts in the draft, that is an enormous distinction. It's also why this team didn't (and wouldn't) trade Cousins for a seat at the craps table.
I get it. Hockenson is a really good player, but that's not the point. The point is how much cap do you want tied up at that position when we have other upcoming big money contracts that need to get done and a defense that still needs upgrading? The Lions traded him because they didn't want to allocate the big money contract it would have taken to retain him and chose to take the draft picks and future cap flexibility. They also smartly took advantage of the historic talent and depth at the TE position in this draft and now have a young, high upside TE in LaPorta on a rookie deal who they don't have to pay for four years. Meanwhile, Hockenson got this franchise no closer to winning a Super Bowl last year as we would have without him. We could have started Mundt and lost to the Giants at home. I'm not so sure the Lions weren't the wiser team in this deal
Man, I just don't understand the way you think. LOL.
We went all in and tried to make a run last year by trading for Hockensen. We lost at home to the Giants and got bounced. So the all in move didn't work out as expected. It's fair to question after the fact on whether it was a wise strategy when you take into account those other factors I mentioned. That's all. Nothing complicated about it.
Exactly right. The trade was to help get last year's team to the next level with their playoff run. Unfortunately, as good as TJ and the offense was, they couldn't overcome the horrendous decision to bring on Donatell and his absolute joke of a defense. We knew that we would have to pay TJ on an extension and I was OK with that. With Thielen gone, we really don't have a ton of money tied up at WR. Cook will be gone as well so having the one of your best playmakers on the Team as your TE is no different than KC with Kelce. Hockenson had the 2nd most receptions of any TE in the NFL last year. So, I guess I'm looking at it from the standpoint that he is part of our receiving corps and is critical to this offense's success moving forward. Osborne is inconsistent, and Addison will have to prove himself as a capable starter with JJ. Oliver is the head scratcher. I like what he can do in the run game, but not for the money we have invested when we have needs elsewhere.
It's a great point you bring up on Kelce because it illustrates the point I am trying to make. Kelce is one of the highest paid TE's in football, and deservedly so, but because KC paid him and Mahomes they were unable to retain one of the best weapons in all of football in Tyreek Hill and traded him because they simply couldn't pay him. What are the Vikings doing with their money and will there be enough to sign all the key pieces on offense as well as upgrading the defense? It's about money allocation and I question whether making the trade for Hockenson was in our best interest long term to pay a TE top dollar at the expense of other positions, especially if we are forced to keep playing the yearly Kirk Cousins contract, money reshuffling game as it appears we will be.
Like I said, if my choice moving forward was to have Michael Mayer on a rookie contract for the next four years, or be paying Hockenson $15+ million a season over that same time span, the smart move would be to go with the rookie and use the cap money saved to upgrade other positions. The Lions traded Hockenson for this very reason
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ VikingOracle said:
Draft rankings are a funny and ridiculous. You love them when you team is rated highly and hate them otherwise. Fact is, NFL teams spend millions and an incredible amount of time scouting players, especially in the first round. You would think that there would be an incredible success rate for 1st round picks. Then you look at the # of 1st rounders who did not have their 5th year option picked up this week -- or did not even make it to their 4th year with the team that drafted them, and you realize how much a crap shoot even the 1st round is. https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/nfl-fifth-year-option-tracker-draft-picks/jyqwwzddcqnag2wmqf7up5yi If the teams can't get it right, how do we expect a columnist's grade to be even close to correct?
This is what has always baffled me. You're right, this is a multi-billion dollar industry, filled with mountains of data and hundreds of scouts who pore over height, weight, speed, strength, personality, cognitive skills, all in an attempt to identify college players who can play in the NFL....
You would think they would be better at it.
Really, you only need one name as proof that the draft is a crap shoot and you can only improve your odds at the margins: Tom Brady. The good drafting teams are just improving their odds a touch by how they analyze all the available information but that makes all the difference. Before the salary cap made draft picks more valuable, the Redskins had a good approach -- trade draft picks (lottery tickets) for a proven veteran. That is why adding Hockenson to the equation makes this a much better draft.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ VikingOracle said:
Draft rankings are a funny and ridiculous. You love them when you team is rated highly and hate them otherwise. Fact is, NFL teams spend millions and an incredible amount of time scouting players, especially in the first round. You would think that there would be an incredible success rate for 1st round picks. Then you look at the # of 1st rounders who did not have their 5th year option picked up this week -- or did not even make it to their 4th year with the team that drafted them, and you realize how much a crap shoot even the 1st round is. https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news...wmqf7up5yi If the teams can't get it right, how do we expect a columnist's grade to be even close to correct?
But what about value?? Can't you see KAM is getting fleeced right in front of our eyes?? :p
We obviously did great because Vikings fans on a Vikings site claim that it might not be as it appears to be. Time will tell, but early on 31 out of 32 looks about right to me.
Brugler has a pretty solid track record with the draft, so he is not some hack with an uneducated position. No one ever will know until a few years down the road, but I would agree with Brugler, I liked the Roy and McBride picks, but thought the first 3 picks were awful. I think the best player from this draft could come from the UDFAs.
My understanding is a little different on Hill. It wasn't that they couldn't pay him, they didn't want to pay him what he and Drew Rosenhaus demanded, and then Rosenhaus got involved and facilitated a trade and extension with the Dolphins. Doesn't really matter for this discussion. We weren't going anywhere last year without another weapon in the passing game. We are stuck in a "last year" vs. "this year" debate. They needed an immediate impact player last year when they did the deal and made their run so looking ahead to this year's draft talent didn't fit the timeline. They made their choice whether we agree or not to go with a proven talent who could step in and provide this offense with a major boost since teams were taking away JJ vs. gambling on the unproven, but highly talented TE Draft Class. The consequence of that decision is finding the money needed to pay him. They still have some levers they can pull with restructuring O'Neill's contract, Cook, and whatever they decide to do with Smith. JJ's extension won't kick in until the 2024 Cap since he's on his 5th year option. No guarantee that any of those 5 Second Round TE's will be the same level of player as Hockenson. The head scratcher we should be discussing is Oliver since that was a decision made this year compared to what we could have drafted on a rookie deal. I do like Oliver and what he can bring to this offense but he seems to be more of a luxury at the sacrifice of other positions of need.
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