Quote: @mblack said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
@ RS Express said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
To burn through the good will. If this defense isn't rated in the low 20's and we finish behind the Lions in the division this year, his seat is should be red hot. He looks insanely out of touch. The organization doesn't look like it knows where it's going. Like Cleveland of the 80's bad.
His team went 13-4. He hired a great coach. He’s going to resign the best WR in the league. He made the 2nd best trade in Viking history when he got Hock
KAM hasn’t looked great in April to FANS, but he isn’t going anywhere.
Also, if Cine, Booth, and Evans are healthy, there will be 5 starters from the 2022 draft on week 1 2023 (Ingram and Asamoah). Oh that's just awful. And Addison at #2 WR.
First, it's a big if whether all 3 will be healthy starters, let alone productive. Also, if Cine, Booth and Evans are healthy starters we just wasted 2 higher picks this year on CB's with bigger needs at LBer, DT, depth at C, etc. One on an undersized guy after getting rid of a proven Duke Shelley, supposedly for not being the right size in Flores' scheme. Asamoah, has done nothing yet, and is Addison really better than Osbourne?
Using your logic:
- if last years picks are all starters then we have build depth on the secondary… a good thing
- since you dont think they will all be starter so this years picks add competition and we hopefully get upgraded at that position and one less position to worry about….. a good thing
- if we had picked LB and the positions you prefered and last years players were not ready then we end up with two positions in need… a bad thing
- if we drafted LB etc and last years picks were all starters we will still be thin at both secondary and LB…. a bad thing.
lastly we still have free agency to upgrade certain spots.
I hope you see how this can go any direction? so I just trust the process
Is it really illogical to question the talent evaluation capabilities of the organization that, with very limited picks, drafts the same DB positions 2 years in a row with questionable metrics that don't line up with other glaring needs of the team, while making horrible value trades.
Depleting positional groups by not re-signing a starters like Kendricks or Tomlinson would indicate an improvement is needed in personnel via draft or FA. With our current cap situation and availability, drafting would have been the way to go, but instead we stack up the back end of our defense praying one of them works out. Even Zimmer might have said enough already.
Quote: @mgobluevikes said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
To burn through the good will. If this defense isn't rated in the low 20's and we finish behind the Lions in the division this year, his seat is should be red hot. He looks insanely out of touch. The organization doesn't look like it knows where it's going. Like Cleveland of the 80's bad.
His team went 13-4. He hired a great coach. He’s going to resign the best WR in the league. He made the 2nd best trade in Viking history when he got Hock
KAM hasn’t looked great in April to FANS, but he isn’t going anywhere.
2nd best trade in Vikings History? How about Tarkenton, or Allen. Or dealing Harvin or Diggs? Hockenson is a TE and not a #1 or #2 focal point or weapon on the offense.
Yeah, bringing in a probowl TE who completely revamped our offense and made it click is right up there with the best trades we’ve ever made.
The JA trade was the best. Not even a question. The Diggs trade only works out because we got lucky.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ mblack said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ AGRforever said:
@ mgobluevikes said:
To burn through the good will. If this defense isn't rated in the low 20's and we finish behind the Lions in the division this year, his seat is should be red hot. He looks insanely out of touch. The organization doesn't look like it knows where it's going. Like Cleveland of the 80's bad.
His team went 13-4. He hired a great coach. He’s going to resign the best WR in the league. He made the 2nd best trade in Viking history when he got Hock
KAM hasn’t looked great in April to FANS, but he isn’t going anywhere.
His team? Hardly, his contributions to the team last year were largely non existent with the exception of Hock, who only joined the team mid season. We aren't going to see kams team until this year at the soonest. 13-4 was largely still with ricks players.
using your logic….
Yet Rick’s players and Rick’s coach could not win 10 games and missed out if the playoffs two times in a row.
I wonder what changed?
Its also funny we have to wait two years to see Kwesi’s impact on the team when it’s time to give credit but we are very comfortable bashing him for a draft that is not even over or for last years draft.
Many point to Cine not contributing much in year one but I remember a certain Chad Greenway missing his rookie season. He turned out just fine. I am not saying Cine will be as successful or better than Chad or. that Kwesi is a draft guru. Just saying we should calm down.
It’s not like all GMs dont have hits and misses
Just saying…
What changed? Offensive Head coach for one, it certainly wasn't due to the draft picks that kam made.
if you are uncomfortable with people being disappointed on a fan board... not sure what to tell you about that. We have teams in our conference that were significantly better than ours last year, and it doesn't look like we really have done anything much to close that gap. Time will tell on KAM, but the current trend isn't promising. Its not like any of us can do anything about it but bitch when we aren't happy about the direction of a team we've followed for decades.
There were questions about kam in last years draft and those questions seem to remain unanswered. He seems to be having a bit of a challenge with the draft itself.
who hired the head coach and staff that improved the offense? Remember my reply was to the statement that Kwesi’s contribution to the team development were “largely non existent”. You cant discount the work he did in hiring the coaching staff that won 13 games and then rip the work he did in the draft. Both are his responsibilities.
Regarding the draft, its too early to pass any judgement
Quote: @mgobluevikes said:
To burn through the good will. If this defense isn't rated in the low 20's and we finish behind the Lions in the division this year, his seat is should be red hot. He looks insanely out of touch. The organization doesn't look like it knows where it's going. Like Cleveland of the 80's bad.
Its overreaction season already? I mean, it appears the same people that weren't KAM fans last year (not sure why) were determined to stay that way this year. What can be garnered from any Draft right now? Nothing.
Criticism is fine, its a subjective thing, the Draft. Just seems we need to wait and see on this.
So far Kwesi's results in getting value in trades have been dubious. But he did apparently win the Colts trade, moving from 158 to 141 while only giving up 211.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/2023-nfl-draft-colts-trade-no-141-pick-to-vikings/ar-AA1awRjA
Also, we picked up a (late) 5th next year from KC in the 119>134 tradeback. If you subscribe to the 1-round discount for future picks, than that trade is a value loss. If you value the 2024 late 5 the same as a '23 late 5, it's a win. Maybe Kwesi doesn't apply the discount.
The trade I thought was a value bath this year was 87 for 102, 164 and 222. According to the Rich Hill model, while it it is a loss, it was only 48 points to 45, not as bad as I thought. If we'd gotten back pick 99 instead of 102, the "value" would have been even... but we'd have picked Blackmon anyway.
https://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Trade-Value...stTeam=MIN
I posted elsewhere that after Addison, the Vikings seemed to have "drafted backwards". What I mean is, if the Vikings had made the same trades and drafted the same players, but drafted them in a different order such as...
23 Addison
102 Roy
134 Hall
141 Blackmon
164 Ward
222 McBride
+ 2024 5th
... there would be a lot less wailing and gnashing going on even though we had the same players because the "value" on Blackmon and Ward would now fit the armchair GMs predraft rankings better.
We needed a #2 WR, we got one. We needed CBs, and got 2. Needed DT, check. Depth RB to fill room after Cook leaves, check. 5th next year to pay off Reagor trade, check. QBOTF apparently went out the window when Richardson went to the Colts. Crap happens. My 1 major change would have been to get an LB at 134 instead of Ward.
If we're going to judge him on the draft picks then we should also include the UDFA that he brought in. Guys like Pace & Carter would have made fine mid round picks and we were able to sign them without giving up any capital.
I thought the picks themselves were fine. They addressed needs and fortified some positions.
Quote: @PurpleCrush said:
If we're going to judge him on the draft picks then we should also include the UDFA that he brought in. Guys like Pace & Carter would have made fine mid round picks and we were able to sign them without giving up any capital.
I thought the picks themselves were fine. They addressed needs and fortified some positions.
https://twitter.com/Krauserrific/status/...67872?s=20
Not sure why everyone is mad at Kwesi after this draft. Didn't see any glaring blunders like last year. If anything, seemed like he was less inclined to trade this year.
I'm totally fine with that since I really liked Addison (he was #2 for me behind JSN at WR). Passing on Hooker didn't bother me either since I don't think he's a franchise guy and we had all the Intel on Levis and passed. I'll trust the scouts and Kevin O'Connell on that one since he's best buds with Levis' college coach.
Is the let down and Kwesi bashing because there was some anticipation we'd make a move up for a QB? Like Geoff said, the Vikings had Stroud and Richardson as their only Round 1 QB targets and we couldn't get up for either one.
Also, everyone should have known once we made the pick at 23, that we'd likely trade back for a few more shots at some Day 3 guys with our 3rd rounder. We passed on a couple guys I'd have preferred, but Blackmon is a good player with upside and Flores apparently wanted the LSU safety Ward (from what I heard). Roy was a good pick and adds some depth along the DL.
I was hoping we'd take Pace or Carter with our 7th over the RB we took, but to get those guys as UDFAs we're good gets.
It wasn't a splashy draft, but it sets us up to compete for the division title again. I'm not completely sold on Kwesi but this draft didn't really do anything to shift my opinion one way or the other.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ PurpleCrush said:
If we're going to judge him on the draft picks then we should also include the UDFA that he brought in. Guys like Pace & Carter would have made fine mid round picks and we were able to sign them without giving up any capital.
I thought the picks themselves were fine. They addressed needs and fortified some positions.
https://twitter.com/Krauserrific/status/...67872?s=20
MB,
I was going to post a separate thread on my issues with Kwesi's draft process but this Twitter Post pretty much sums it up. The one thing I underestimated is how they look at defensive players in a draft evaluation with the priority of Position Versatility over more talented players who only fit one role. I didn't really take that into account and the influence Flores will have in that process as long as he is DC.
My biggest complaint is that Kwesi doesn't understand how to maximize value in trades. This is the second year in a row where we he has failed to get equal or better value back for moving down. Moving down to the end of the 4th and only getting KC's 2024 5th is inexcusable with where that will be positioned after they win another Super Bowl.
Finally, this idea of falling in love with certain players and elevating their value with the assumption every other teams feels the same way is maddening. If you are going to pat yourself on the back for taking a starting caliber RB in McBride in the 7th as an incredible value and talent, then why are you overdrafting players like Blackmon and Ward who you could have gotten later in the draft? It's hypocritical. Kwesi needs to learn how to read the room and maximize our pick value.
I will compliment him on the FA signings. Those are some nice pickups. I did like the trade up to get Roy. I think with some proper coaching by Flores, he will be an impact player before you know it. McBride pretty much confirms the Rumors that they have a June 1st deal in place with the Dolphins to move Cook, or have decided he will be Cut since the Dolphins did draft Achane in the 3rd if that trade doesn't happen or they have no other partners.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
Not sure why everyone is mad at Kwesi after this draft. Didn't see any glaring blunders like last year. If anything, seemed like he was less inclined to trade this year.
I'm totally fine with that since I really liked Addison (he was #2 for me behind JSN at WR). Passing on Hooker didn't bother me either since I don't think he's a franchise guy and we had all the Intel on Levis and passed. I'll trust the scouts and Kevin O'Connell on that one since he's best buds with Levis' college coach.
Is the let down and Kwesi bashing because there was some anticipation we'd make a move up for a QB? Like Geoff said, the Vikings had Stroud and Richardson as their only Round 1 QB targets and we couldn't get up for either one.
Also, everyone should have known once we made the pick at 23, that we'd likely trade back for a few more shots at some Day 3 guys with our 3rd rounder. We passed on a couple guys I'd have preferred, but Blackmon is a good player with upside and Flores apparently wanted the LSU safety Ward (from what I heard). Roy was a good pick and adds some depth along the DL.
I was hoping we'd take Pace or Carter with our 7th over the RB we took, but to get those guys as UDFAs we're good gets.
It wasn't a splashy draft, but it sets us up to compete for the division title again. I'm not completely sold on Kwesi but this draft didn't really do anything to shift my opinion one way or the other.
Instant dissatisfaction was inevitable by some. Guess it makes more sense to evaluate based on production instead of projection, and that will take a little time and patience.
My wife always buys the least expensive item without regard for quality. Sometimes that's a good strategy and sometimes not so good. I have concerns that Kwesi may be looking for value in his picks to the extent he passes on some very good players at times. Not unlike my wife's shopping strategy!
I like Kwesi and appreciate the difficult position the Wilf's have placed him in with their 'competitive rebuild' desires. It will take another year or two to get an idea of how he is doing. It's hard to get an idea of what he's trying to do at this point, so the frustration is understandable.
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