Quote: @kmillard said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ Mike Olson said:
I am most concerned about Smith on defense and thielwn on offense. Not sure how much gas those guys have left in the tank. Especially Smith.
Smith is 29. Doesn't turn 30 until September. He's younger than Eric Kendricks. I'd say he's at least a couple years away from age-related decline. Injuries are probably a bigger concern for him IMO.
Harrison.
Ah...kinda forgot about Harry. At least with him we've now got some decent depth there.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Its a pretty solid roster that is built to compete now while allowing the coaches/front office to better access what they have. Nothing they've done on offense should lower their floor barring injuries. So say that is locked in as a top-12 unit or better.
On defense they've improved the pass rush but I worry it could take some time to adapt into the 3-4 scheme. There are also more health concerns on that side of the ball. Although the secondary could still struggle I believe they should cover better in space with the addition of Cine and Asamoah who can play immediately in a nickel role.
Mix in the easier schedule and they should be right there with other playoff teams. The NFL is unpredictable so maybe that is even good enough to win the division. More likely than not they're more wild card material but we'll have to see how it plays out. The goal this season is to remain competitive while allowing the new FO to figure out what the path forward needs to look like.
Geoff...would love to get your take on the trade down with Detoilet, our draft class, all the trades and how you thought Kwesi fared in his first draft. It's a pretty split crowd here and I happen to think it was highly questionable overall. Would love to hear your take.
I think he did alright with a tough hand being dealt to him. All of their targets were off the board by #12 and it was a buyers market to move up in the draft. So I think on the trade with Detroit he broke even given the market but lost based on the precedence of what others teams have gotten in the past to move up. So take that for what you will. I personally would have asked Detroit if they would have done #32, #34, and the Rams 23' 1st for #12 and #46. That first would be valued as a mid-second round pick.
As for what they did with the picks from there, I like Cine. Hamilton wasn't going to be a fit based on draft value and his style of play. Cine will help them cover in space and add some violence to a defense that really lacks it.
They did much better on the trade-down with GB and moving up to grab Booth was a masterful play of working the draft. Of all the picks I think you could have gotten Ingram a little later but based on how their picks were distributed if they wanted Asamoah they'd probably just been swapping those two guys.
Asamoah I am a big fan of. He covers well enough in-space that you can bring him into the base 3-4 in-place of Hunter/Smith and let him work in coverage. Long-term he has a very good chance of taking over for either Kendricks or Hicks.
The only last thing I'll leave you with, is they filled needs with this draft class but also hedged considerably. If this season isn't a success they now have cost controlled replacements for Harrison Smith and Kendricks or Hicks. That could easily be $13.5M - $16M available next off-season if they choose to do more of the traditional cap purge.
Your trade suggestion with Detroit would have been much more reasonable. I thought you said before the draft if Jameson Williams made it to our pick to look for him to be the selection? What happened there, and we're they so locked in on Sauce and Stingley that when they went off the board it was going to be a trade down one way or another? That's what it felt like to me. We traded out of a premium position where a lot of excellent prospects we're still available, for minimal compensation from a division rival...to draft a safety with the last pick of the round. Talk about taking the wind out of our collective draft sails.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Its a pretty solid roster that is built to compete now while allowing the coaches/front office to better access what they have. Nothing they've done on offense should lower their floor barring injuries. So say that is locked in as a top-12 unit or better.
On defense they've improved the pass rush but I worry it could take some time to adapt into the 3-4 scheme. There are also more health concerns on that side of the ball. Although the secondary could still struggle I believe they should cover better in space with the addition of Cine and Asamoah who can play immediately in a nickel role.
Mix in the easier schedule and they should be right there with other playoff teams. The NFL is unpredictable so maybe that is even good enough to win the division. More likely than not they're more wild card material but we'll have to see how it plays out. The goal this season is to remain competitive while allowing the new FO to figure out what the path forward needs to look like.
Geoff...would love to get your take on the trade down with Detoilet, our draft class, all the trades and how you thought Kwesi fared in his first draft. It's a pretty split crowd here and I happen to think it was highly questionable overall. Would love to hear your take.
I think he did alright with a tough hand being dealt to him. All of their targets were off the board by #12 and it was a buyers market to move up in the draft. So I think on the trade with Detroit he broke even given the market but lost based on the precedence of what others teams have gotten in the past to move up. So take that for what you will. I personally would have asked Detroit if they would have done #32, #34, and the Rams 23' 1st for #12 and #46. That first would be valued as a mid-second round pick.
As for what they did with the picks from there, I like Cine. Hamilton wasn't going to be a fit based on draft value and his style of play. Cine will help them cover in space and add some violence to a defense that really lacks it.
They did much better on the trade-down with GB and moving up to grab Booth was a masterful play of working the draft. Of all the picks I think you could have gotten Ingram a little later but based on how their picks were distributed if they wanted Asamoah they'd probably just been swapping those two guys.
Asamoah I am a big fan of. He covers well enough in-space that you can bring him into the base 3-4 in-place of Hunter/Smith and let him work in coverage. Long-term he has a very good chance of taking over for either Kendricks or Hicks.
The only last thing I'll leave you with, is they filled needs with this draft class but also hedged considerably. If this season isn't a success they now have cost controlled replacements for Harrison Smith and Kendricks or Hicks. That could easily be $13.5M - $16M available next off-season if they choose to do more of the traditional cap purge.
Your trade suggestion with Detroit would have been much more reasonable. I thought you said before the draft if Jameson Williams made it to our pick to look for him to be the selection? What happened there, and we're they so locked in on Sauce and Stingley that when they went off the board it was going to be a trade down one way or another? That's what it felt like to me. We traded out of a premium position where a lot of excellent prospects we're still available, for minimal compensation from a division rival...to draft a safety with the last pick of the round. Talk about taking the wind out of our collective draft sails.
He was on the list of potential options. He was behind Garrett Wilson on their board. If Wilson had made it to #12 they would have made the pick. Jamison was right on the line of where they would trade out.
People talk about "premium" positions and I would argue safety is quickly getting to be equally as important as CB. Very different roles but look how much the analytics driven teams or smart teams have invested in the position.
As defenses have adapted to the modern NFL the safeties have become versatile enough that they are becoming a pillar of defensive scheming. So I don't necessarily frown at the value of Cine. Many teams had 1st round grades on him.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Its a pretty solid roster that is built to compete now while allowing the coaches/front office to better access what they have. Nothing they've done on offense should lower their floor barring injuries. So say that is locked in as a top-12 unit or better.
On defense they've improved the pass rush but I worry it could take some time to adapt into the 3-4 scheme. There are also more health concerns on that side of the ball. Although the secondary could still struggle I believe they should cover better in space with the addition of Cine and Asamoah who can play immediately in a nickel role.
Mix in the easier schedule and they should be right there with other playoff teams. The NFL is unpredictable so maybe that is even good enough to win the division. More likely than not they're more wild card material but we'll have to see how it plays out. The goal this season is to remain competitive while allowing the new FO to figure out what the path forward needs to look like.
Geoff...would love to get your take on the trade down with Detoilet, our draft class, all the trades and how you thought Kwesi fared in his first draft. It's a pretty split crowd here and I happen to think it was highly questionable overall. Would love to hear your take.
I think he did alright with a tough hand being dealt to him. All of their targets were off the board by #12 and it was a buyers market to move up in the draft. So I think on the trade with Detroit he broke even given the market but lost based on the precedence of what others teams have gotten in the past to move up. So take that for what you will. I personally would have asked Detroit if they would have done #32, #34, and the Rams 23' 1st for #12 and #46. That first would be valued as a mid-second round pick.
As for what they did with the picks from there, I like Cine. Hamilton wasn't going to be a fit based on draft value and his style of play. Cine will help them cover in space and add some violence to a defense that really lacks it.
They did much better on the trade-down with GB and moving up to grab Booth was a masterful play of working the draft. Of all the picks I think you could have gotten Ingram a little later but based on how their picks were distributed if they wanted Asamoah they'd probably just been swapping those two guys.
Asamoah I am a big fan of. He covers well enough in-space that you can bring him into the base 3-4 in-place of Hunter/Smith and let him work in coverage. Long-term he has a very good chance of taking over for either Kendricks or Hicks.
The only last thing I'll leave you with, is they filled needs with this draft class but also hedged considerably. If this season isn't a success they now have cost controlled replacements for Harrison Smith and Kendricks or Hicks. That could easily be $13.5M - $16M available next off-season if they choose to do more of the traditional cap purge.
Your trade suggestion with Detroit would have been much more reasonable. I thought you said before the draft if Jameson Williams made it to our pick to look for him to be the selection? What happened there, and we're they so locked in on Sauce and Stingley that when they went off the board it was going to be a trade down one way or another? That's what it felt like to me. We traded out of a premium position where a lot of excellent prospects we're still available, for minimal compensation from a division rival...to draft a safety with the last pick of the round. Talk about taking the wind out of our collective draft sails.
He was on the list of potential options. He was behind Garrett Wilson on their board. If Wilson had made it to #12 they would have made the pick. Jamison was right on the line of where they would trade out.
People talk about "premium" positions and I would argue safety is quickly getting to be equally as important as CB. Very different roles but look how much the analytics driven teams or smart teams have invested in the position.
As defenses have adapted to the modern NFL the safeties have become versatile enough that they are becoming a pillar of defensive scheming. So I don't necessarily frown at the value of Cine. Many teams had 1st round grades on him.
I'll disagree with you. Just look at the list of 1st round safeties in the last ten years:
2021- None, first safety drafted was Javon Holland (36)
2020- None, first safety drafted was Xavier McKinney (36)
2019- Darnell Savage (21), Jonathan Abram (27)
2018- Minkah Fitzpatrick (11), Derwin James (17), Terrell Edmonds (28)
2017- Jamal Adams (6), Malik Hooker (15), Jabril Peppers (25)
2016- Karl Joseph (15), Keanu Neal (17)
2015- Damarious Randall (30), Landon Collins (33, close enough)
2014- Calvin Pryor (18), Ha-Ha Clinton Dix (21), Deone Bucannon (27), Jimmie Ward (30)
2013- Kenny Vaccaro (15), Eric Reid (18), Matt Elam (32)
2012- Mark Barron (7), Harrison Smith (29)
Outside of Harrison Smith and Minkah Fitzpatrick, that is one huge elephant pile of shit and why I say I'd never take a safety with a 1st round pick. The position has been hugely devalued and teams can simply transition cornerbacks to play the position now, ala Bynum. It's great that Cine can obliterate guys coming over the middle and be an enforcer, the only problem is that's not allowed in the NFL anymore and flags are thrown on anything even coming close to resembling a hard hit. If we wanted a safety with range and coverage skills then we should have taken Hamilton. I just don't see safeties as close to being pillars of your defense. Those should be your front seven guys. So not only will I frown not only at the value of taking Cine, but I frown at the fact that we traded all the way down to the last pick of the round to take a safety. Thats a double L in my opinion.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Its a pretty solid roster that is built to compete now while allowing the coaches/front office to better access what they have. Nothing they've done on offense should lower their floor barring injuries. So say that is locked in as a top-12 unit or better.
On defense they've improved the pass rush but I worry it could take some time to adapt into the 3-4 scheme. There are also more health concerns on that side of the ball. Although the secondary could still struggle I believe they should cover better in space with the addition of Cine and Asamoah who can play immediately in a nickel role.
Mix in the easier schedule and they should be right there with other playoff teams. The NFL is unpredictable so maybe that is even good enough to win the division. More likely than not they're more wild card material but we'll have to see how it plays out. The goal this season is to remain competitive while allowing the new FO to figure out what the path forward needs to look like.
Geoff...would love to get your take on the trade down with Detoilet, our draft class, all the trades and how you thought Kwesi fared in his first draft. It's a pretty split crowd here and I happen to think it was highly questionable overall. Would love to hear your take.
I think he did alright with a tough hand being dealt to him. All of their targets were off the board by #12 and it was a buyers market to move up in the draft. So I think on the trade with Detroit he broke even given the market but lost based on the precedence of what others teams have gotten in the past to move up. So take that for what you will. I personally would have asked Detroit if they would have done #32, #34, and the Rams 23' 1st for #12 and #46. That first would be valued as a mid-second round pick.
As for what they did with the picks from there, I like Cine. Hamilton wasn't going to be a fit based on draft value and his style of play. Cine will help them cover in space and add some violence to a defense that really lacks it.
They did much better on the trade-down with GB and moving up to grab Booth was a masterful play of working the draft. Of all the picks I think you could have gotten Ingram a little later but based on how their picks were distributed if they wanted Asamoah they'd probably just been swapping those two guys.
Asamoah I am a big fan of. He covers well enough in-space that you can bring him into the base 3-4 in-place of Hunter/Smith and let him work in coverage. Long-term he has a very good chance of taking over for either Kendricks or Hicks.
The only last thing I'll leave you with, is they filled needs with this draft class but also hedged considerably. If this season isn't a success they now have cost controlled replacements for Harrison Smith and Kendricks or Hicks. That could easily be $13.5M - $16M available next off-season if they choose to do more of the traditional cap purge.
Your trade suggestion with Detroit would have been much more reasonable. I thought you said before the draft if Jameson Williams made it to our pick to look for him to be the selection? What happened there, and we're they so locked in on Sauce and Stingley that when they went off the board it was going to be a trade down one way or another? That's what it felt like to me. We traded out of a premium position where a lot of excellent prospects we're still available, for minimal compensation from a division rival...to draft a safety with the last pick of the round. Talk about taking the wind out of our collective draft sails.
He was on the list of potential options. He was behind Garrett Wilson on their board. If Wilson had made it to #12 they would have made the pick. Jamison was right on the line of where they would trade out.
People talk about "premium" positions and I would argue safety is quickly getting to be equally as important as CB. Very different roles but look how much the analytics driven teams or smart teams have invested in the position.
As defenses have adapted to the modern NFL the safeties have become versatile enough that they are becoming a pillar of defensive scheming. So I don't necessarily frown at the value of Cine. Many teams had 1st round grades on him.
I'll disagree with you. Just look at the list of 1st round safeties in the last ten years:
2021- None, first safety drafted was Javon Holland (36)
2020- None, first safety drafted was Xavier McKinney (36)
2019- Darnell Savage (21), Jonathan Abram (27)
2018- Minkah Fitzpatrick (11), Derwin James (17), Terrell Edmonds (28)
2017- Jamal Adams (6), Malik Hooker (15), Jabril Peppers (25)
2016- Karl Joseph (15), Keanu Neal (17)
2015- Damarious Randall (30), Landon Collins (33, close enough)
2014- Calvin Pryor (18), Ha-Ha Clinton Dix (21), Deone Bucannon (27), Jimmie Ward (30)
2013- Kenny Vaccaro (15), Eric Reid (18), Matt Elam (32)
2012- Mark Barron (7), Harrison Smith (29)
Outside of Harrison Smith and Minkah Fitzpatrick, that is one huge elephant pile of shit and why I say I'd never take a safety with a 1st round pick. The position has been hugely devalued and teams can simply transition cornerbacks to play the position now, ala Bynum. It's great that Cine can obliterate guys coming over the middle and be an enforcer, the only problem is that's not allowed in the NFL anymore and flags are thrown on anything even coming close to resembling a hard hit. If we wanted a safety with range and coverage skills then we should have taken Hamilton. I just don't see safeties as close to being pillars of your defense. Those should be your front seven guys. So not only will I frown not only at the value of taking Cine, but I frown at the fact that we traded all the way down to the last pick of the round to take a safety. Thats a double L in my opinion.
If safeties are devalued and worthless (similar to running backs) why are team spending more draft capital on them and teams are paying more and more for high quality safety play?
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Its a pretty solid roster that is built to compete now while allowing the coaches/front office to better access what they have. Nothing they've done on offense should lower their floor barring injuries. So say that is locked in as a top-12 unit or better.
On defense they've improved the pass rush but I worry it could take some time to adapt into the 3-4 scheme. There are also more health concerns on that side of the ball. Although the secondary could still struggle I believe they should cover better in space with the addition of Cine and Asamoah who can play immediately in a nickel role.
Mix in the easier schedule and they should be right there with other playoff teams. The NFL is unpredictable so maybe that is even good enough to win the division. More likely than not they're more wild card material but we'll have to see how it plays out. The goal this season is to remain competitive while allowing the new FO to figure out what the path forward needs to look like.
Geoff...would love to get your take on the trade down with Detoilet, our draft class, all the trades and how you thought Kwesi fared in his first draft. It's a pretty split crowd here and I happen to think it was highly questionable overall. Would love to hear your take.
I think he did alright with a tough hand being dealt to him. All of their targets were off the board by #12 and it was a buyers market to move up in the draft. So I think on the trade with Detroit he broke even given the market but lost based on the precedence of what others teams have gotten in the past to move up. So take that for what you will. I personally would have asked Detroit if they would have done #32, #34, and the Rams 23' 1st for #12 and #46. That first would be valued as a mid-second round pick.
As for what they did with the picks from there, I like Cine. Hamilton wasn't going to be a fit based on draft value and his style of play. Cine will help them cover in space and add some violence to a defense that really lacks it.
They did much better on the trade-down with GB and moving up to grab Booth was a masterful play of working the draft. Of all the picks I think you could have gotten Ingram a little later but based on how their picks were distributed if they wanted Asamoah they'd probably just been swapping those two guys.
Asamoah I am a big fan of. He covers well enough in-space that you can bring him into the base 3-4 in-place of Hunter/Smith and let him work in coverage. Long-term he has a very good chance of taking over for either Kendricks or Hicks.
The only last thing I'll leave you with, is they filled needs with this draft class but also hedged considerably. If this season isn't a success they now have cost controlled replacements for Harrison Smith and Kendricks or Hicks. That could easily be $13.5M - $16M available next off-season if they choose to do more of the traditional cap purge.
Your trade suggestion with Detroit would have been much more reasonable. I thought you said before the draft if Jameson Williams made it to our pick to look for him to be the selection? What happened there, and we're they so locked in on Sauce and Stingley that when they went off the board it was going to be a trade down one way or another? That's what it felt like to me. We traded out of a premium position where a lot of excellent prospects we're still available, for minimal compensation from a division rival...to draft a safety with the last pick of the round. Talk about taking the wind out of our collective draft sails.
He was on the list of potential options. He was behind Garrett Wilson on their board. If Wilson had made it to #12 they would have made the pick. Jamison was right on the line of where they would trade out.
People talk about "premum" positions and I would argue safety is quickly getting to be equally as important as CB. Very different roles but look how much the analytics driven teams or smart teams have invested in the position.
As defenses have adapted to the modern NFL the safeties have become versatile enough that they are becoming a pillar of defensive scheming. So I don't necessarily frown at the value of Cine. Many teams had 1st round grades on him.
I'll disagree with you. Just look at the list of 1st round safeties in the last ten years:
2021- None, first safety drafted was Javon Holland (36)
2020- None, first safety drafted was Xavier McKinney (36)
2019- Darnell Savage (21), Jonathan Abram (27)
2018- Minkah Fitzpatrick (11), Derwin James (17), Terrell Edmonds (28)
2017- Jamal Adams (6), Malik Hooker (15), Jabril Peppers (25)
2016- Karl Joseph (15), Keanu Neal (17)
2015- Damarious Randall (30), Landon Collins (33, close enough)
2014- Calvin Pryor (18), Ha-Ha Clinton Dix (21), Deone Bucannon (27), Jimmie Ward (30)
2013- Kenny Vaccaro (15), Eric Reid (18), Matt Elam (32)
2012- Mark Barron (7), Harrison Smith (29)
Outside of Harrison Smith and Minkah Fitzpatrick, that is one huge elephant pile of shit and why I say I'd never take a safety with a 1st round pick. The position has been hugely devalued and teams can simply transition cornerbacks to play the position now, ala Bynum. It's great that Cine can obliterate guys coming over the middle and be an enforcer, the only problem is that's not allowed in the NFL anymore and flags are thrown on anything even coming close to resembling a hard hit. If we wanted a safety with range and coverage skills then we should have taken Hamilton. I just don't see safeties as close to being pillars of your defense. Those should be your front seven guys. So not only will I frown not only at the value of taking Cine, but I frown at the fact that we traded all the way down to the last pick of the round to take a safety. Thats a double L in my opinion.
If safeties are devalued and worthless (similar to running backs) why are team spending more draft capital on them and teams are paying more and more for high quality safety play?
The teams spending high draft capital on the position have looked foolish as evidenced by the list I provided. How many of those players have had their options picked up or received second contracts from the teams that drafted them? I count two, Harrison Smith and Jimmie Ward. That's not a good look and goes to show that safety is a devalued position (similar to running backs) and it can be addressed in the later rounds or free agency.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Its a pretty solid roster that is built to compete now while allowing the coaches/front office to better access what they have. Nothing they've done on offense should lower their floor barring injuries. So say that is locked in as a top-12 unit or better.
On defense they've improved the pass rush but I worry it could take some time to adapt into the 3-4 scheme. There are also more health concerns on that side of the ball. Although the secondary could still struggle I believe they should cover better in space with the addition of Cine and Asamoah who can play immediately in a nickel role.
Mix in the easier schedule and they should be right there with other playoff teams. The NFL is unpredictable so maybe that is even good enough to win the division. More likely than not they're more wild card material but we'll have to see how it plays out. The goal this season is to remain competitive while allowing the new FO to figure out what the path forward needs to look like.
Geoff...would love to get your take on the trade down with Detoilet, our draft class, all the trades and how you thought Kwesi fared in his first draft. It's a pretty split crowd here and I happen to think it was highly questionable overall. Would love to hear your take.
I think he did alright with a tough hand being dealt to him. All of their targets were off the board by #12 and it was a buyers market to move up in the draft. So I think on the trade with Detroit he broke even given the market but lost based on the precedence of what others teams have gotten in the past to move up. So take that for what you will. I personally would have asked Detroit if they would have done #32, #34, and the Rams 23' 1st for #12 and #46. That first would be valued as a mid-second round pick.
As for what they did with the picks from there, I like Cine. Hamilton wasn't going to be a fit based on draft value and his style of play. Cine will help them cover in space and add some violence to a defense that really lacks it.
They did much better on the trade-down with GB and moving up to grab Booth was a masterful play of working the draft. Of all the picks I think you could have gotten Ingram a little later but based on how their picks were distributed if they wanted Asamoah they'd probably just been swapping those two guys.
Asamoah I am a big fan of. He covers well enough in-space that you can bring him into the base 3-4 in-place of Hunter/Smith and let him work in coverage. Long-term he has a very good chance of taking over for either Kendricks or Hicks.
The only last thing I'll leave you with, is they filled needs with this draft class but also hedged considerably. If this season isn't a success they now have cost controlled replacements for Harrison Smith and Kendricks or Hicks. That could easily be $13.5M - $16M available next off-season if they choose to do more of the traditional cap purge.
Your trade suggestion with Detroit would have been much more reasonable. I thought you said before the draft if Jameson Williams made it to our pick to look for him to be the selection? What happened there, and we're they so locked in on Sauce and Stingley that when they went off the board it was going to be a trade down one way or another? That's what it felt like to me. We traded out of a premium position where a lot of excellent prospects we're still available, for minimal compensation from a division rival...to draft a safety with the last pick of the round. Talk about taking the wind out of our collective draft sails.
He was on the list of potential options. He was behind Garrett Wilson on their board. If Wilson had made it to #12 they would have made the pick. Jamison was right on the line of where they would trade out.
People talk about "premum" positions and I would argue safety is quickly getting to be equally as important as CB. Very different roles but look how much the analytics driven teams or smart teams have invested in the position.
As defenses have adapted to the modern NFL the safeties have become versatile enough that they are becoming a pillar of defensive scheming. So I don't necessarily frown at the value of Cine. Many teams had 1st round grades on him.
I'll disagree with you. Just look at the list of 1st round safeties in the last ten years:
2021- None, first safety drafted was Javon Holland (36)
2020- None, first safety drafted was Xavier McKinney (36)
2019- Darnell Savage (21), Jonathan Abram (27)
2018- Minkah Fitzpatrick (11), Derwin James (17), Terrell Edmonds (28)
2017- Jamal Adams (6), Malik Hooker (15), Jabril Peppers (25)
2016- Karl Joseph (15), Keanu Neal (17)
2015- Damarious Randall (30), Landon Collins (33, close enough)
2014- Calvin Pryor (18), Ha-Ha Clinton Dix (21), Deone Bucannon (27), Jimmie Ward (30)
2013- Kenny Vaccaro (15), Eric Reid (18), Matt Elam (32)
2012- Mark Barron (7), Harrison Smith (29)
Outside of Harrison Smith and Minkah Fitzpatrick, that is one huge elephant pile of shit and why I say I'd never take a safety with a 1st round pick. The position has been hugely devalued and teams can simply transition cornerbacks to play the position now, ala Bynum. It's great that Cine can obliterate guys coming over the middle and be an enforcer, the only problem is that's not allowed in the NFL anymore and flags are thrown on anything even coming close to resembling a hard hit. If we wanted a safety with range and coverage skills then we should have taken Hamilton. I just don't see safeties as close to being pillars of your defense. Those should be your front seven guys. So not only will I frown not only at the value of taking Cine, but I frown at the fact that we traded all the way down to the last pick of the round to take a safety. Thats a double L in my opinion.
If safeties are devalued and worthless (similar to running backs) why are team spending more draft capital on them and teams are paying more and more for high quality safety play?
The teams spending high draft capital on the position have looked foolish as evidenced by the list I provided. How many of those players have had their options picked up or received second contracts from the teams that drafted them? I count two, Harrison Smith and Jimmie Ward. That's not a good look and goes to show that safety is a devalued position (similar to running backs) and it can be addressed in the later rounds or free agency.
Without doing the leg work, Im sure just about every position list is littered with 1st round bums similar to this safety list. This list would only be relevant if compared to other positions.
BLAH...BLAH...BLAH...BLAH...BLAH...BLAH...BLAH...BLAH...BLAH...BLAH...BLAH...BLAH...The draft's over, live and except who we got. Maybe some of these new players just might surprise you.
Quote: @AGRforever said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Its a pretty solid roster that is built to compete now while allowing the coaches/front office to better access what they have. Nothing they've done on offense should lower their floor barring injuries. So say that is locked in as a top-12 unit or better.
On defense they've improved the pass rush but I worry it could take some time to adapt into the 3-4 scheme. There are also more health concerns on that side of the ball. Although the secondary could still struggle I believe they should cover better in space with the addition of Cine and Asamoah who can play immediately in a nickel role.
Mix in the easier schedule and they should be right there with other playoff teams. The NFL is unpredictable so maybe that is even good enough to win the division. More likely than not they're more wild card material but we'll have to see how it plays out. The goal this season is to remain competitive while allowing the new FO to figure out what the path forward needs to look like.
Geoff...would love to get your take on the trade down with Detoilet, our draft class, all the trades and how you thought Kwesi fared in his first draft. It's a pretty split crowd here and I happen to think it was highly questionable overall. Would love to hear your take.
I think he did alright with a tough hand being dealt to him. All of their targets were off the board by #12 and it was a buyers market to move up in the draft. So I think on the trade with Detroit he broke even given the market but lost based on the precedence of what others teams have gotten in the past to move up. So take that for what you will. I personally would have asked Detroit if they would have done #32, #34, and the Rams 23' 1st for #12 and #46. That first would be valued as a mid-second round pick.
As for what they did with the picks from there, I like Cine. Hamilton wasn't going to be a fit based on draft value and his style of play. Cine will help them cover in space and add some violence to a defense that really lacks it.
They did much better on the trade-down with GB and moving up to grab Booth was a masterful play of working the draft. Of all the picks I think you could have gotten Ingram a little later but based on how their picks were distributed if they wanted Asamoah they'd probably just been swapping those two guys.
Asamoah I am a big fan of. He covers well enough in-space that you can bring him into the base 3-4 in-place of Hunter/Smith and let him work in coverage. Long-term he has a very good chance of taking over for either Kendricks or Hicks.
The only last thing I'll leave you with, is they filled needs with this draft class but also hedged considerably. If this season isn't a success they now have cost controlled replacements for Harrison Smith and Kendricks or Hicks. That could easily be $13.5M - $16M available next off-season if they choose to do more of the traditional cap purge.
Your trade suggestion with Detroit would have been much more reasonable. I thought you said before the draft if Jameson Williams made it to our pick to look for him to be the selection? What happened there, and we're they so locked in on Sauce and Stingley that when they went off the board it was going to be a trade down one way or another? That's what it felt like to me. We traded out of a premium position where a lot of excellent prospects we're still available, for minimal compensation from a division rival...to draft a safety with the last pick of the round. Talk about taking the wind out of our collective draft sails.
He was on the list of potential options. He was behind Garrett Wilson on their board. If Wilson had made it to #12 they would have made the pick. Jamison was right on the line of where they would trade out.
People talk about "premum" positions and I would argue safety is quickly getting to be equally as important as CB. Very different roles but look how much the analytics driven teams or smart teams have invested in the position.
As defenses have adapted to the modern NFL the safeties have become versatile enough that they are becoming a pillar of defensive scheming. So I don't necessarily frown at the value of Cine. Many teams had 1st round grades on him.
I'll disagree with you. Just look at the list of 1st round safeties in the last ten years:
2021- None, first safety drafted was Javon Holland (36)
2020- None, first safety drafted was Xavier McKinney (36)
2019- Darnell Savage (21), Jonathan Abram (27)
2018- Minkah Fitzpatrick (11), Derwin James (17), Terrell Edmonds (28)
2017- Jamal Adams (6), Malik Hooker (15), Jabril Peppers (25)
2016- Karl Joseph (15), Keanu Neal (17)
2015- Damarious Randall (30), Landon Collins (33, close enough)
2014- Calvin Pryor (18), Ha-Ha Clinton Dix (21), Deone Bucannon (27), Jimmie Ward (30)
2013- Kenny Vaccaro (15), Eric Reid (18), Matt Elam (32)
2012- Mark Barron (7), Harrison Smith (29)
Outside of Harrison Smith and Minkah Fitzpatrick, that is one huge elephant pile of shit and why I say I'd never take a safety with a 1st round pick. The position has been hugely devalued and teams can simply transition cornerbacks to play the position now, ala Bynum. It's great that Cine can obliterate guys coming over the middle and be an enforcer, the only problem is that's not allowed in the NFL anymore and flags are thrown on anything even coming close to resembling a hard hit. If we wanted a safety with range and coverage skills then we should have taken Hamilton. I just don't see safeties as close to being pillars of your defense. Those should be your front seven guys. So not only will I frown not only at the value of taking Cine, but I frown at the fact that we traded all the way down to the last pick of the round to take a safety. Thats a double L in my opinion.
Without doing the leg work, Im sure just about every position list is littered with 1st round bums similar to this safety list. This list would only be relevant if compared to other positions.
No that safety list is obscenely bad. You literally have two players in the last ten years worthy of the high draft positions they were drafted in, and one of those guys (Fitzpatrick) isn't even with the team that drafted him.
Let's do it this way, give me your top 5 safeties in the league right now, and let's examine where they were drafted. To me, having an elite safety is a luxury and pales in comparison to all the other positions defensively when speaking in terms of importance and impact. You can more then get by with average safety play if your other positions defensively are good.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
Its a pretty solid roster that is built to compete now while allowing the coaches/front office to better access what they have. Nothing they've done on offense should lower their floor barring injuries. So say that is locked in as a top-12 unit or better.
On defense they've improved the pass rush but I worry it could take some time to adapt into the 3-4 scheme. There are also more health concerns on that side of the ball. Although the secondary could still struggle I believe they should cover better in space with the addition of Cine and Asamoah who can play immediately in a nickel role.
Mix in the easier schedule and they should be right there with other playoff teams. The NFL is unpredictable so maybe that is even good enough to win the division. More likely than not they're more wild card material but we'll have to see how it plays out. The goal this season is to remain competitive while allowing the new FO to figure out what the path forward needs to look like.
Geoff...would love to get your take on the trade down with Detoilet, our draft class, all the trades and how you thought Kwesi fared in his first draft. It's a pretty split crowd here and I happen to think it was highly questionable overall. Would love to hear your take.
I think he did alright with a tough hand being dealt to him. All of their targets were off the board by #12 and it was a buyers market to move up in the draft. So I think on the trade with Detroit he broke even given the market but lost based on the precedence of what others teams have gotten in the past to move up. So take that for what you will. I personally would have asked Detroit if they would have done #32, #34, and the Rams 23' 1st for #12 and #46. That first would be valued as a mid-second round pick.
As for what they did with the picks from there, I like Cine. Hamilton wasn't going to be a fit based on draft value and his style of play. Cine will help them cover in space and add some violence to a defense that really lacks it.
They did much better on the trade-down with GB and moving up to grab Booth was a masterful play of working the draft. Of all the picks I think you could have gotten Ingram a little later but based on how their picks were distributed if they wanted Asamoah they'd probably just been swapping those two guys.
Asamoah I am a big fan of. He covers well enough in-space that you can bring him into the base 3-4 in-place of Hunter/Smith and let him work in coverage. Long-term he has a very good chance of taking over for either Kendricks or Hicks.
The only last thing I'll leave you with, is they filled needs with this draft class but also hedged considerably. If this season isn't a success they now have cost controlled replacements for Harrison Smith and Kendricks or Hicks. That could easily be $13.5M - $16M available next off-season if they choose to do more of the traditional cap purge.
Your trade suggestion with Detroit would have been much more reasonable. I thought you said before the draft if Jameson Williams made it to our pick to look for him to be the selection? What happened there, and we're they so locked in on Sauce and Stingley that when they went off the board it was going to be a trade down one way or another? That's what it felt like to me. We traded out of a premium position where a lot of excellent prospects we're still available, for minimal compensation from a division rival...to draft a safety with the last pick of the round. Talk about taking the wind out of our collective draft sails.
He was on the list of potential options. He was behind Garrett Wilson on their board. If Wilson had made it to #12 they would have made the pick. Jamison was right on the line of where they would trade out.
People talk about "premium" positions and I would argue safety is quickly getting to be equally as important as CB. Very different roles but look how much the analytics driven teams or smart teams have invested in the position.
As defenses have adapted to the modern NFL the safeties have become versatile enough that they are becoming a pillar of defensive scheming. So I don't necessarily frown at the value of Cine. Many teams had 1st round grades on him.
I'll disagree with you. Just look at the list of 1st round safeties in the last ten years:
2021- None, first safety drafted was Javon Holland (36)
2020- None, first safety drafted was Xavier McKinney (36)
2019- Darnell Savage (21), Jonathan Abram (27)
2018- Minkah Fitzpatrick (11), Derwin James (17), Terrell Edmonds (28)
2017- Jamal Adams (6), Malik Hooker (15), Jabril Peppers (25)
2016- Karl Joseph (15), Keanu Neal (17)
2015- Damarious Randall (30), Landon Collins (33, close enough)
2014- Calvin Pryor (18), Ha-Ha Clinton Dix (21), Deone Bucannon (27), Jimmie Ward (30)
2013- Kenny Vaccaro (15), Eric Reid (18), Matt Elam (32)
2012- Mark Barron (7), Harrison Smith (29)
Outside of Harrison Smith and Minkah Fitzpatrick, that is one huge elephant pile of shit and why I say I'd never take a safety with a 1st round pick. The position has been hugely devalued and teams can simply transition cornerbacks to play the position now, ala Bynum. It's great that Cine can obliterate guys coming over the middle and be an enforcer, the only problem is that's not allowed in the NFL anymore and flags are thrown on anything even coming close to resembling a hard hit. If we wanted a safety with range and coverage skills then we should have taken Hamilton. I just don't see safeties as close to being pillars of your defense. Those should be your front seven guys. So not only will I frown not only at the value of taking Cine, but I frown at the fact that we traded all the way down to the last pick of the round to take a safety. Thats a double L in my opinion.
You can do this with just about every position. Check the WRs taken in the 1st round in the last 10 drafts....
2012 - Justin Blackmon, Michael Floyd, Kendall Wright, AJ Jenkins
2013 - Tavon Austin, Deandre Hopkins, Cordarrelle Patterson
2014 - Sammy Watkins, Mike Evans, OBJ, Brandon Cooks, Kelvin Benjamin
2015 - Amari Cooper, Kevin White, DeVante Parker, Nelson Agholor, Breshad Perriman, Phillip Dorsett
2016 - Corey Coleman, Will Fuller, Josh Doctson, Laquon Treadwell
2017 - Corey Davis, Mike Williams, John Ross
2018 - DJ Moore, Calvin Ridley
2019 - Marquise Brown, N'Keal Harry
2020 - Henry Ruggs, Jerry Jeudy, CeeDee Lamb, Jalen Reagor, JJ, Brandon Aiyuk
2021 - Ja'Mar Chase, Jaylen Waddle, DeVonta Smith, Kadarius Toney, Rashod Bateman
There are 40 names here. How many have given their team 1st round value? 7 maybe? 8?
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