Quote: @MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
What would you think of selling out to move up to #9 to grab Kinlaw if he was available. Jags are another team looking to trade down.
The impact of a legit 3T just cascades all throughout the defense. 3 new CBs are going to need all the help they can get, especially with no OTAs.
I wouldn't go all the way into the top 10 for Kinlaw. I actually don't like him nearly as much as the media. He'll be very good, but don't see the elite pass rushing upside.
If you are going into the top 10 I think it would likely be Wirfs. He is one of the best O-lineman I've ever graded. He's not a finished product but if you look at his improvements between 2018 & 19 he is just scratching the surface and his film already wasn't an issue.
Just stay put and take Raekwon Davis who is just as good as Kinlaw in not better IMHO.
Davis was pre-season All American on several lists. He was rated #25 by drafttek in late December.
He has fallen in the rankings despite only playing one bowl game.
Amazing what the pre-draft crapola does to internet big boards and thus, fan opinions.
Davis is a beast!
The dude returned to school to graduate and completed that task as the first in his family.
He was the only upperclassman on the defensive line last year and was their leader.
I would not be surprised in the slightest to see him go in the late first and then have folks say it was a reach.
I think that's a pretty bold take. I think the media has over-hyped Davis all the way back to when he was recruited. The stagnant/downward trajectory of his on-field performance is very concerning too. Has the size/length/measurable's you look for but hasn't been overly explosive and needs quite a bit of pass rush development. The concerning part about that is that Alabama is one of the better schools at developing that in guys, so why did that not turn out for him? It's a question he'll need to answer to get teams to buy in.
I personally have him on a list of guys who could fall significantly. So I would be in the group saying he was a reach in late round 1. I don't even know if I would take him in round 2.
That is fair. However, how do you explain those 8.5 sacks in 2017? That is pretty dang good for a DT. Did he just luck into those?
I think that showed he could get after the passer.
What happened the last two years is he was double teamed incessantly.
A few scouting reports even made a comment about him "wearing down" without any mention of getting doubled.
I think you are way off on Davis.
Kinlaw had 35 tackles (15 solo), 6 tackles for loss, and 6 sacks in 2019.
He had 38 tackles (21 solo), 10 tackles for loss, and 4 sacks in 2018.
He had 20 tackles (12 solo), 2 tackles for loss, and 0 sacks in 2017.
Davis had 47 tackles (18 solo), 3 tackles for loss, and .5 sacks in 2019.
He had 55 tackles (24 solo), 5.5 tackles for loss, and 1.5 sacks in 2018.
He had 69 tackles (24 solo), 10 tackles for loss, and 8.5 sacks in 2017.
Davis already plays the run better and getting double teamed does have an effect on those counting stats.
I think you need to look at the trajectory since that is very important. QB pressures are what truly matter, not TFLs or Sacks, but Davis is clearly on a downward trajectory. Kinlaw on the other hand has continued to grow. That is a very important aspect of the evaluation. Davis' 2017 shouldn't be taken for granted but he was put in a position to succeed for two reasons. 1) He was unproven and their wasn't tape on how to negate him. 2) He played next to Payne who ate up 3 blockers at times and strong edge rushers. So he was 1x1 and nobody knew how he wanted to attack the rush.
2018 was supposed to be his breakout year and he was the focal point of a teams defensive strategy and they negated him. He opts to return and rebuild his draft stock only to fall further down the map when teams didn't consistently double him. He hasn't been able to overcome the fact that he has a limited move set, is a big target to block, and hasn't been able to develop a rush plan.
If he can't do that at Alabama with high end coaching, why would it be different in the NFL? Sure, the upside is there. But there is no inkling a change of scenery is going to spark him into superstardom.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
What would you think of selling out to move up to #9 to grab Kinlaw if he was available. Jags are another team looking to trade down.
The impact of a legit 3T just cascades all throughout the defense. 3 new CBs are going to need all the help they can get, especially with no OTAs.
I wouldn't go all the way into the top 10 for Kinlaw. I actually don't like him nearly as much as the media. He'll be very good, but don't see the elite pass rushing upside.
If you are going into the top 10 I think it would likely be Wirfs. He is one of the best O-lineman I've ever graded. He's not a finished product but if you look at his improvements between 2018 & 19 he is just scratching the surface and his film already wasn't an issue.
Just stay put and take Raekwon Davis who is just as good as Kinlaw in not better IMHO.
Davis was pre-season All American on several lists. He was rated #25 by drafttek in late December.
He has fallen in the rankings despite only playing one bowl game.
Amazing what the pre-draft crapola does to internet big boards and thus, fan opinions.
Davis is a beast!
The dude returned to school to graduate and completed that task as the first in his family.
He was the only upperclassman on the defensive line last year and was their leader.
I would not be surprised in the slightest to see him go in the late first and then have folks say it was a reach.
I think that's a pretty bold take. I think the media has over-hyped Davis all the way back to when he was recruited. The stagnant/downward trajectory of his on-field performance is very concerning too. Has the size/length/measurable's you look for but hasn't been overly explosive and needs quite a bit of pass rush development. The concerning part about that is that Alabama is one of the better schools at developing that in guys, so why did that not turn out for him? It's a question he'll need to answer to get teams to buy in.
I personally have him on a list of guys who could fall significantly. So I would be in the group saying he was a reach in late round 1. I don't even know if I would take him in round 2.
That is fair. However, how do you explain those 8.5 sacks in 2017? That is pretty dang good for a DT. Did he just luck into those?
I think that showed he could get after the passer.
What happened the last two years is he was double teamed incessantly.
A few scouting reports even made a comment about him "wearing down" without any mention of getting doubled.
I think you are way off on Davis.
Kinlaw had 35 tackles (15 solo), 6 tackles for loss, and 6 sacks in 2019.
He had 38 tackles (21 solo), 10 tackles for loss, and 4 sacks in 2018.
He had 20 tackles (12 solo), 2 tackles for loss, and 0 sacks in 2017.
Davis had 47 tackles (18 solo), 3 tackles for loss, and .5 sacks in 2019.
He had 55 tackles (24 solo), 5.5 tackles for loss, and 1.5 sacks in 2018.
He had 69 tackles (24 solo), 10 tackles for loss, and 8.5 sacks in 2017.
Davis already plays the run better and getting double teamed does have an effect on those counting stats.
I think you need to look at the trajectory since that is very important. QB pressures are what truly matter, not TFLs or Sacks, but Davis is clearly on a downward trajectory. Kinlaw on the other hand has continued to grow. That is a very important aspect of the evaluation. Davis' 2017 shouldn't be taken for granted but he was put in a position to succeed for two reasons. 1) He was unproven and their wasn't tape on how to negate him. 2) He played next to Payne who ate up 3 blockers at times and strong edge rushers. So he was 1x1 and nobody knew how he wanted to attack the rush.
2018 was supposed to be his breakout year and he was the focal point of a teams defensive strategy and they negated him. He opts to return and rebuild his draft stock only to fall further down the map when teams didn't consistently double him. He hasn't been able to overcome the fact that he has a limited move set, is a big target to block, and hasn't been able to develop a rush plan.
If he can't do that at Alabama with high end coaching, why would it be different in the NFL? Sure, the upside is there. But there is no inkling a change of scenery is going to spark him into superstardom.
https://www.tuscaloosanews.com/sports/20191008/alabamas-raekwon-davis-seeing-improvement-despite-lack-of-numbers
“He has been very good, he’s worked hard. Certainly tried to set a good example for some of the young guys that are playing around him,” UA coach Nick Saban said. “I’ve been pleased with his effort. He was banged up, he had a little shoulder (issue) there, didn’t miss any time. I think that bothered him a little bit in the last game but he should be healthy and ready to go. I think he has played a little more consistently this year than last year.”
Then he fights double teams for their benefit.
Double teams came at Davis early and often as a junior, and they’ve been present so far this season. Given time to reflect and approach a new season, he decided his double team technique needed work. He has graded himself on a brutal scale — and passed.
I think that you are wrong about the times he was doubled teamed the last two seasons. Who else was going to get double teamed last year?
I think he returned to improve his draft stock (a bit) and to graduate. He did graduate.
It's all good though.
I have been wrong many many times before about players.
I'll take Davis and put him next to Pierce and Hunter or Odenigbo.
He may get a lot less double teams and might just play like he did in 2017 but a lot better because he has worked on his double-team technique.
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