Quote: @minny65 said:
Even if you extrapolate Diggs stats for the games missed he is no where near a TOP 10 WR, statistically. 14 million average salary is TOP money.
I would consider around 11 million with heavy incentives to reach 14 million if he can produce Top 10 production like around 85-90 catches, 1200 yards and around 10 TD's.
Last year, in 14 games, he had 64 catches, for 849 yards and 8 TD's. Those stats, even extrapolated out for 2 games missed, are not Top 10 production. Again a heavy incentive package for him to produce what he thinks he is worth. Show me baby otherwise play out the year and then decide.
this is where i am at.... 10 million dollar base, bonus million each for 16+ games played, 85+ receptions, 10+ TD, 1000+ yards.
I am also kind of torn between having these guys play out their deals and getting their best efforts before we let them walk for potential compensatory picks, VS putting them out on the trade wire and seeing if we can get a 1st or 2nd round offer for them in next years draft vs a 3rd round at best in 2 years. I can see the value in having them here this year, but I also think we will be in better shape to replace their production sooner and keep the team viable longer if we move them now.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ minny65 said:
Even if you extrapolate Diggs stats for the games missed he is no where near a TOP 10 WR, statistically. 14 million average salary is TOP money.
I would consider around 11 million with heavy incentives to reach 14 million if he can produce Top 10 production like around 85-90 catches, 1200 yards and around 10 TD's.
Last year, in 14 games, he had 64 catches, for 849 yards and 8 TD's. Those stats, even extrapolated out for 2 games missed, are not Top 10 production. Again a heavy incentive package for him to produce what he thinks he is worth. Show me baby otherwise play out the year and then decide.
this is where i am at.... 10 million dollar base, bonus million each for 16+ games played, 85+ receptions, 10+ TD, 1000+ yards.
I am also kind of torn between having these guys play out their deals and getting their best efforts before we let them walk for potential compensatory picks, VS putting them out on the trade wire and seeing if we can get a 1st or 2nd round offer for them in next years draft vs a 3rd round at best in 2 years. I can see the value in having them here this year, but I also think we will be in better shape to replace their production sooner and keep the team viable longer if we move them now.
Not sure we would get a first rounder in a trade of either Barr or Diggs because the new team would also have to redo their contract demands. Maybe a 2nd rounder this year and something the following year?? Totally making up but don't think we would get a first rounder. Knowing that is it worth it?
I think both are asking for too much from what we are offering. We can try and negotiate with them, trade them, or let the season play out for both with another year to judge. I lean towards let the year play out. Maybe this next year, Diggs misses another 3 games or so and produces about the same = not top 10 money at all. Maybe Barr plays lights out and flashes pass rush ability from the DE/3-4 Lb'er scheme? IDK, but another season will enlighten I would think. Sort of our approach with Bradford and prove that he can stay healthy which he couldn't. Glad we didn't work on an extension for him.
Quote: @minny65 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ minny65 said:
Even if you extrapolate Diggs stats for the games missed he is no where near a TOP 10 WR, statistically. 14 million average salary is TOP money.
I would consider around 11 million with heavy incentives to reach 14 million if he can produce Top 10 production like around 85-90 catches, 1200 yards and around 10 TD's.
Last year, in 14 games, he had 64 catches, for 849 yards and 8 TD's. Those stats, even extrapolated out for 2 games missed, are not Top 10 production. Again a heavy incentive package for him to produce what he thinks he is worth. Show me baby otherwise play out the year and then decide.
this is where i am at.... 10 million dollar base, bonus million each for 16+ games played, 85+ receptions, 10+ TD, 1000+ yards.
I am also kind of torn between having these guys play out their deals and getting their best efforts before we let them walk for potential compensatory picks, VS putting them out on the trade wire and seeing if we can get a 1st or 2nd round offer for them in next years draft vs a 3rd round at best in 2 years. I can see the value in having them here this year, but I also think we will be in better shape to replace their production sooner and keep the team viable longer if we move them now.
Not sure we would get a first rounder in a trade of either Barr or Diggs because the new team would also have to redo their contract demands. Maybe a 2nd rounder this year and something the following year?? Totally making up but don't think we would get a first rounder. Knowing that is it worth it?
I think both are asking for too much from what we are offering. We can try and negotiate with them, trade them, or let the season play out for both with another year to judge. I lean towards let the year play out. Maybe this next year, Diggs misses another 3 games or so and produces about the same = not top 10 money at all. Maybe Barr plays lights out and flashes pass rush ability from the DE/3-4 Lb'er scheme? IDK, but another season will enlighten I would think. Sort of our approach with Bradford and prove that he can stay healthy which he couldn't. Glad we didn't work on an extension for him.
like I said... I could argue this with conviction about 3 different ways. glad its not my call.
Quote: @minny65 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ minny65 said:
Even if you extrapolate Diggs stats for the games missed he is no where near a TOP 10 WR, statistically. 14 million average salary is TOP money.
I would consider around 11 million with heavy incentives to reach 14 million if he can produce Top 10 production like around 85-90 catches, 1200 yards and around 10 TD's.
Last year, in 14 games, he had 64 catches, for 849 yards and 8 TD's. Those stats, even extrapolated out for 2 games missed, are not Top 10 production. Again a heavy incentive package for him to produce what he thinks he is worth. Show me baby otherwise play out the year and then decide.
this is where i am at.... 10 million dollar base, bonus million each for 16+ games played, 85+ receptions, 10+ TD, 1000+ yards.
I am also kind of torn between having these guys play out their deals and getting their best efforts before we let them walk for potential compensatory picks, VS putting them out on the trade wire and seeing if we can get a 1st or 2nd round offer for them in next years draft vs a 3rd round at best in 2 years. I can see the value in having them here this year, but I also think we will be in better shape to replace their production sooner and keep the team viable longer if we move them now.
Not sure we would get a first rounder in a trade of either Barr or Diggs because the new team would also have to redo their contract demands. Maybe a 2nd rounder this year and something the following year?? Totally making up but don't think we would get a first rounder. Knowing that is it worth it?
I think both are asking for too much from what we are offering. We can try and negotiate with them, trade them, or let the season play out for both with another year to judge. I lean towards let the year play out. Maybe this next year, Diggs misses another 3 games or so and produces about the same = not top 10 money at all. Maybe Barr plays lights out and flashes pass rush ability from the DE/3-4 Lb'er scheme? IDK, but another season will enlighten I would think. Sort of our approach with Bradford and prove that he can stay healthy which he couldn't. Glad we didn't work on an extension for him.
Yep sounds smart to me. If both insist on top dollar make them prove it. You got guys like Thielan and Kendrick and you are going to pay these guys way more? In Diggs case twice as much. If one guy is lights out we might have to pay up. If both are we gambled and lost. If neither do we are ahead. Plus still can tag one if he's really really lights out.
my concern is that even once we get this year settled... there is next year and the year after that... its a good problem to have, but it would be nice to see better value in return for some of these gems than compensatory draft picks. at some point Rick needs to roll the dice and move the guys early for better picks to keep the pipeline full. (especially for some of the guys like Barr, Waynes, and soon Alexander((maybe)) who were high round picks themselves) honestly a 3rd rounder comp pick in 2 years is really a late 2nd round pick this year so that should be the bare minimum I would expect and even if it was something like 2 second round picks in consecutive years I think that would be better than getting one more year of questionable production just to have the right to franchise a guy and further screw up the cap situation for that years crop of guys we need to resign.
The idea that Diggs isn't worth top WR money is a little silly. Its not all about your production, but a combination of surrounding and potential as well. He falls smack dab in the middle between the contracts just signed by Jarvis Landry ($15.1M) and Davante Adams ($14.5M). Diggs is going to want to top $15.1M and right now that is just the reality of the situation. Whether the overall guarantees can drop that AAV a bit, we'll see. What happens with Diggs deal also impacts the teams relationship with Thielen since they told him and his agent they weren't going to redo his deal this off-season.
Barr on the other hand is a more tricky negotiation. Him and his agent are in a position of power sitting on $12M guaranteed in 2018. That is higher than what typical 43 OLB's get paid and its hard to suggest he takes a pay cut over 4-5 years. The other wildcard with Barr is that 34 teams are going to value him as a pass rusher as an UFA and the Vikings haven't utilized him as one (until now). As a 3-4 pass rushing threat his target mark would be closer to $16M/yr. While as a 4-3 all-around player the market tops out around $10-11M. The built in $5M gap in negotiations makes it tough. No teams has also paid two LB's top money, so you have to ask if the Vikings will break league precedence?
My gut feeling is that they end up focusing on resigning Barr sooner rather than later. When it comes to Diggs the franchise tag is closer to his actual value and allows the team flexibility to push Thielen off one more season before re-doing his deal. I also wouldn't be shocked to see the Vikings let Diggs walk. A franchise QB (which they believe Kirk is) should be able to function with middle tier receivers. You don't surround a high paid QB with multiple high paid receiving threats.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
The idea that Diggs isn't worth top WR money is a little silly. Its not all about your production, but a combination of surrounding and potential as well. He falls smack dab in the middle between the contracts just signed by Jarvis Landry ($15.1M) and Davante Adams ($14.5M). Diggs is going to want to top $15.1M and right now that is just the reality of the situation. Whether the overall guarantees can drop that AAV a bit, we'll see. What happens with Diggs deal also impacts the teams relationship with Thielen since they told him and his agent they weren't going to redo his deal this off-season.
Barr on the other hand is a more tricky negotiation. Him and his agent are in a position of power sitting on $12M guaranteed in 2018. That is higher than what typical 43 OLB's get paid and its hard to suggest he takes a pay cut over 4-5 years. The other wildcard with Barr is that 34 teams are going to value him as a pass rusher as an UFA and the Vikings haven't utilized him as one (until now). As a 3-4 pass rushing threat his target mark would be closer to $16M/yr. While as a 4-3 all-around player the market tops out around $10-11M. The built in $5M gap in negotiations makes it tough. No teams has also paid two LB's top money, so you have to ask if the Vikings will break league precedence?
My gut feeling is that they end up focusing on resigning Barr sooner rather than later. When it comes to Diggs the franchise tag is closer to his actual value and allows the team flexibility to push Thielen off one more season before re-doing his deal. I also wouldn't be shocked to see the Vikings let Diggs walk. A franchise QB (which they believe Kirk is) should be able to function with middle tier receivers. You don't surround a high paid QB with multiple high paid receiving threats.
If that is the case then I want to let this season play out and franchise or pay the one that plays better. I really don't want to pay Diggs 15 million plus which is Top 5 money for a WR. He needs to produce more to warrant that IMO. Maybe he stays healthy and clicks with Cousins and then we can either pay him or franchise him for that 15 million so then we have 2 seasons of Diggs for the price of about one.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ purplefaithful said:
Zulgad: Barr or Diggs? If Vikings can pick only one whom should they keep?
Barr continues to have the potential to be fantastic, but that means four years into his career we continue to talk about what could be as opposed to what he’s done. Zimmer has put together a fantastic defense and many of the key pieces still will be in place if Barr departs. The Vikings offense and Cousins, meanwhile, will suffer if Diggs is elsewhere.
Fair comment regarding Barr, but couldn't you say the same thing about Diggs? Yes, he has the potential to be fantastic - but still has not produced even 1,000 yards in a season, in a passing-crazy league where that level is not an especially high bar.
Also, Zimmer always says that we fans can't evaluate his defensive players because his scheme de-emphasizes stats, so how do we know Barr has not been playing up to his potential? Diggs, meanwhile, plays a position where most of his production is pretty easily measurable.
You're forgetting one huge factor. Diggs performance relies heavily on the QB. And last year the Vikings were playing with a backup. Also, while, yes, this is a pass-crazy league the Vikings were very much a running football team the last few years. Last year, despite losing Cook early, the Vikings ranked near the top in rushing attempts.
I sign Diggs before the season while he still hasn't played 16 games or gone over 1K. His price could be reasonable. I think we've seen the best Barr has. But this is Diggs' 4th season and he'll playing with a QB who can get him the ball deep. I'd hate to have to pay him after what could be an enormous season.
I don't quite agree about the QB factor, largely because in 2016, Diggs had a healthy Sam Bradford. OK, you may say Sam was behind a bad line that didn't give him time to throw deep, but in that same year, Bradford's presence helped Adam Thielen emerge as a premier WR. Diggs had the longest catch of his career with Keenum throwing to him. And why won't the Vikings still run the ball as much this year, with Cook back?
If Diggs is a "only if" top WR - he could be one of the best but "only if" his QB is good, the line is good, the running game doesn't overshadow the passing game, he doesn't have another WR getting more targets - then I don't really think he's a top WR.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
My gut feeling is that they end up focusing on resigning Barr sooner rather than later. When it comes to Diggs the franchise tag is closer to his actual value and allows the team flexibility to push Thielen off one more season before re-doing his deal. I also wouldn't be shocked to see the Vikings let Diggs walk. A franchise QB (which they believe Kirk is) should be able to function with middle tier receivers. You don't surround a high paid QB with multiple high paid receiving threats.
I think, because of this belief, the Vikings want to see if Cousins elevates the play of Wright and/or Treadwell, to the point where they may feel, next offseason, that life without Diggs is bearable.
F ckkkkkk that....I dont want to lose Diggs or Barr. And what the hell will happen if Richardson blows-up?
Ok, I am going to get mindful and re-focus on just this season in a vacuum lol!
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ purplefaithful said:
Zulgad: Barr or Diggs? If Vikings can pick only one whom should they keep?
Barr continues to have the potential to be fantastic, but that means four years into his career we continue to talk about what could be as opposed to what he’s done. Zimmer has put together a fantastic defense and many of the key pieces still will be in place if Barr departs. The Vikings offense and Cousins, meanwhile, will suffer if Diggs is elsewhere.
Fair comment regarding Barr, but couldn't you say the same thing about Diggs? Yes, he has the potential to be fantastic - but still has not produced even 1,000 yards in a season, in a passing-crazy league where that level is not an especially high bar.
Also, Zimmer always says that we fans can't evaluate his defensive players because his scheme de-emphasizes stats, so how do we know Barr has not been playing up to his potential? Diggs, meanwhile, plays a position where most of his production is pretty easily measurable.
There are 32 teams with 2 or more starting WR's Last year 15 WR reach the low bar of 1000 yards or more.
Only 3 teams had 2 1000 yard WR's
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