Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
Ok, so for the last couple weeks of camp we have heard about Barr working with the DEs on pass rushing, some have speculated that it was more an effort to get him better at getting off blocks when he blitzes from his LB spot, but others are convinced that he will be putting his hand in the dirt and coming off an end... Griff seems to agree that AB will be playing some end for us this year.... my question is why? going into a contract year, why are they handing his agent a reason to try and pull a bigger contract? lets say he does well in this new roll, are the Vikings then going to pay him like a top pass rusher and move Griff? are they going to showcase his talents early and then move him before the trade deadline? (in a push for a superbowl... highly unlikely) I dont understand the thought process here unless Zim has crazy new scheme that he wants to deploy and none of the other DEs that we have on the roster will fit the roll?
I still question the team setting up his agent to demand an even higher pay day considering it already looks like we wont be able to pay them all.
I think you're incorrectly thinking that the Vikings are a monolith. Zimmer's job is to win. I doubt he thinks too much about contracts. He probably thinks that Barr can add another dimension to his pass rush. And if that helps us win, I'm all for it. Think about what you're saying here. Damn, if I found out that Zimmer intentionally held something back in the interest of saving money, I'd be pretty pissed. And think about how Barr would feel.
I am not saying its in the interest of saving money... as much as not losing the players. everybody tries to make that claim that makes it sound like its about being cheap, its about maybe sandbagging the player a bit in this contract season to maybe save a couple million in order maybe be able to resign another guy... I mean if this was in Barrs wheel house, then why are we only now seeing it in year 5? It strikes me as odd with the timing is all, why wait until the player has one foot out the door to try and increase his skill set? Has Barr turned a corner in the last year where he is suddenly in a better position to make this vast improvement in his contribution? I just dont see it. maybe it will be a new wrinkle, but I am not seeing the huge upside yet when I walk through who comes off and who could come on in a nickle situation. its not like we have a stud S on the sidelines or another LB that could really put things over the top when we send LJ to the bench for a pass rush specialist.
I'm actually shocked that it's taken us this long to use him this way. I thought when he was drafted that the Vikings could easily put him on the Doleman track to DE. They were nearly identical in size and skillset when drafted. I guess Barr just fit too well into that off-the-ball Sam/coverage role that Zimmer values so much. I think the only reason it's happening now is because Zimmer wants a better rotation to keep his pass rushers fresh. Could add a nice element of confusion when the offense has no idea where Barr will line up next. Is he rushing the A-gap, dropping into coverage, coming off the edge with his hand in the dirt? And if so, where's Hunter? I wouldn't want to have to plan for that.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
Ok, so for the last couple weeks of camp we have heard about Barr working with the DEs on pass rushing, some have speculated that it was more an effort to get him better at getting off blocks when he blitzes from his LB spot, but others are convinced that he will be putting his hand in the dirt and coming off an end... Griff seems to agree that AB will be playing some end for us this year.... my question is why? going into a contract year, why are they handing his agent a reason to try and pull a bigger contract? lets say he does well in this new roll, are the Vikings then going to pay him like a top pass rusher and move Griff? are they going to showcase his talents early and then move him before the trade deadline? (in a push for a superbowl... highly unlikely) I dont understand the thought process here unless Zim has crazy new scheme that he wants to deploy and none of the other DEs that we have on the roster will fit the roll?
I still question the team setting up his agent to demand an even higher pay day considering it already looks like we wont be able to pay them all.
I think you're incorrectly thinking that the Vikings are a monolith. Zimmer's job is to win. I doubt he thinks too much about contracts. He probably thinks that Barr can add another dimension to his pass rush. And if that helps us win, I'm all for it. Think about what you're saying here. Damn, if I found out that Zimmer intentionally held something back in the interest of saving money, I'd be pretty pissed. And think about how Barr would feel.
I am not saying its in the interest of saving money... as much as not losing the players. everybody tries to make that claim that makes it sound like its about being cheap, its about maybe sandbagging the player a bit in this contract season to maybe save a couple million in order maybe be able to resign another guy... I mean if this was in Barrs wheel house, then why are we only now seeing it in year 5? It strikes me as odd with the timing is all, why wait until the player has one foot out the door to try and increase his skill set? Has Barr turned a corner in the last year where he is suddenly in a better position to make this vast improvement in his contribution? I just dont see it. maybe it will be a new wrinkle, but I am not seeing the huge upside yet when I walk through who comes off and who could come on in a nickle situation. its not like we have a stud S on the sidelines or another LB that could really put things over the top when we send LJ to the bench for a pass rush specialist.
I'm actually shocked that it's taken us this long to use him this way. I thought when he was drafted that the Vikings could easily put him on the Doleman track to DE. They were nearly identical in size and skillset when drafted. I guess Barr just fit too well into that off-the-ball Sam/coverage role that Zimmer values so much. I think the only reason it's happening now is because Zimmer wants a better rotation to keep his pass rushers fresh. Could add a nice element of confusion when the offense has no idea where Barr will line up next. Is he rushing the A-gap, dropping into coverage, coming off the edge with his hand in the dirt? And if so, where's Hunter? I wouldn't want to have to plan for that.
i understand the positional flexibility angle, i dont understand the timing of it is all. year 2, 3, or 4...makes sense imo, his last year here... makes no sense, why develop a future around a player on his way out potentially.... at a position of strength already? unless they are looking at signing Barr and moving him to DE and moving Hunter? I dont see the hocus pocus angle of some cream yourself new scheme that will keep opposing teams up all night... we already have that defense. I am concernced a bit about getting to cute and ending up having people out of position or miscast in an effort to show something new.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
i understand the positional flexibility angle, i dont understand the timing of it is all. year 2, 3, or 4...makes sense imo, his last year here... makes no sense, why develop a future around a player on his way out potentially.... at a position of strength already? unless they are looking at signing Barr and moving him to DE and moving Hunter? I dont see the hocus pocus angle of some cream yourself new scheme that will keep opposing teams up all night... we already have that defense. I am concernced a bit about getting to cute and ending up having people out of position or miscast in an effort to show something new.
I wouldn't call DE a position of strength in terms of having depth. Last year we had one guy get an injury that clearly affected him and we had no one that could get on the field to relieve him some snaps. We have two quality DEs and one quality backup DE who mostly comes in at DT during passrush situations. After that we just have a bunch of late rounders and UDFAs that have athleticism. Furthermore, we don't really know how Griffens injury will affect him long term. Will he be fully healed, will he need a snap count, will he lose some of his burst, will his injury reoccur?
Quote: @medaille said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
i understand the positional flexibility angle, i dont understand the timing of it is all. year 2, 3, or 4...makes sense imo, his last year here... makes no sense, why develop a future around a player on his way out potentially.... at a position of strength already? unless they are looking at signing Barr and moving him to DE and moving Hunter? I dont see the hocus pocus angle of some cream yourself new scheme that will keep opposing teams up all night... we already have that defense. I am concernced a bit about getting to cute and ending up having people out of position or miscast in an effort to show something new.
I wouldn't call DE a position of strength in terms of having depth. Last year we had one guy get an injury that clearly affected him and we had no one that could get on the field to relieve him some snaps. We have two quality DEs and one quality backup DE who mostly comes in at DT during passrush situations. After that we just have a bunch of late rounders and UDFAs that have athleticism. Furthermore, we don't really know how Griffens injury will affect him long term. Will he be fully healed, will he need a snap count, will he lose some of his burst, will his injury reoccur?
was he held out of mini camp? I dont recall hearing that he wasnt a full go. if he is still a concern I think we would have heard something. as far as depth goes, the team has to be OK with their depth at DE or they shouldnt have been screwing BRob over to save a couple million. I dont know why that Zim didnt use more depth last year, if they werent able to take a few snaps here and there then IMO why the fuck do they have a roster spot... that was a mistake Zim has owned up to, i dont think its necessarily an indicator of weak positional depth.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
Ok, so for the last couple weeks of camp we have heard about Barr working with the DEs on pass rushing, some have speculated that it was more an effort to get him better at getting off blocks when he blitzes from his LB spot, but others are convinced that he will be putting his hand in the dirt and coming off an end... Griff seems to agree that AB will be playing some end for us this year.... my question is why? going into a contract year, why are they handing his agent a reason to try and pull a bigger contract? lets say he does well in this new roll, are the Vikings then going to pay him like a top pass rusher and move Griff? are they going to showcase his talents early and then move him before the trade deadline? (in a push for a superbowl... highly unlikely) I dont understand the thought process here unless Zim has crazy new scheme that he wants to deploy and none of the other DEs that we have on the roster will fit the roll?
I still question the team setting up his agent to demand an even higher pay day considering it already looks like we wont be able to pay them all.
I think you're incorrectly thinking that the Vikings are a monolith. Zimmer's job is to win. I doubt he thinks too much about contracts. He probably thinks that Barr can add another dimension to his pass rush. And if that helps us win, I'm all for it. Think about what you're saying here. Damn, if I found out that Zimmer intentionally held something back in the interest of saving money, I'd be pretty pissed. And think about how Barr would feel.
I am not saying its in the interest of saving money... as much as not losing the players. everybody tries to make that claim that makes it sound like its about being cheap, its about maybe sandbagging the player a bit in this contract season to maybe save a couple million in order maybe be able to resign another guy... I mean if this was in Barrs wheel house, then why are we only now seeing it in year 5? It strikes me as odd with the timing is all, why wait until the player has one foot out the door to try and increase his skill set? Has Barr turned a corner in the last year where he is suddenly in a better position to make this vast improvement in his contribution? I just dont see it. maybe it will be a new wrinkle, but I am not seeing the huge upside yet when I walk through who comes off and who could come on in a nickle situation. its not like we have a stud S on the sidelines or another LB that could really put things over the top when we send LJ to the bench for a pass rush specialist.
I'm actually shocked that it's taken us this long to use him this way. I thought when he was drafted that the Vikings could easily put him on the Doleman track to DE. They were nearly identical in size and skillset when drafted. I guess Barr just fit too well into that off-the-ball Sam/coverage role that Zimmer values so much. I think the only reason it's happening now is because Zimmer wants a better rotation to keep his pass rushers fresh. Could add a nice element of confusion when the offense has no idea where Barr will line up next. Is he rushing the A-gap, dropping into coverage, coming off the edge with his hand in the dirt? And if so, where's Hunter? I wouldn't want to have to plan for that.
i understand the positional flexibility angle, i dont understand the timing of it is all. year 2, 3, or 4...makes sense imo, his last year here... makes no sense, why develop a future around a player on his way out potentially.... at a position of strength already? unless they are looking at signing Barr and moving him to DE and moving Hunter? I dont see the hocus pocus angle of some cream yourself new scheme that will keep opposing teams up all night... we already have that defense. I am concernced a bit about getting to cute and ending up having people out of position or miscast in an effort to show something new.
What makes you think we already have that defense? 2018 is a new year. Offenses have been figuring out last years defense for 8+ months now. Remember all the consternation and doom when our DBs looked like crap against Seattle in the preseason last year? Turns out Zimmer had a plan and was innovating as he usually does. He didn't rest on his double A gap look that confused QBs. He pressed forward. Last year was pattern matching and different coverage concepts in the secondary. This year? Who knows, but having a LB that blitzes get some work getting better at that is a good thing. And it may be a new wrinkle, a new look, or it may simply be Barr getting better.
Zimmer doesn't sit still and think he has the best defense. He innovates and keeps ahead of the offenses. So I will give him that benefit of the doubt even if it makes Barr more expensive.
Over thinking it. Griff wore down last year. Zimmer acknowledges publicly that he needs to rest his D-Linemen more. Team signs a guy to spell Josrph. Drafts a guy to spell Richardson. And behind Griff...
Are a bunch of lottery tickets. Mike is conservative. He needs to see it in practice before he trusts you to do it on the field. And between Weatherly, Bowers, and Obdev6tx8ryxoiyg he ain't seeing it.
You know you need to spell Everson. You don't like the development to date of the 7th Rounders. So why not turn to your athletic freak WILL who showed some moves as a hand in the dirt guy in college?
It's really that simple. All the other guys on the Line have backups who will see time this year. Griffin does not so far, so Zimmer is manufacturing one.
I bet if the light suddenly turns on for one of lottery ticket kids Barr gets dropped from the pass rushing plans.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
Ok, so for the last couple weeks of camp we have heard about Barr working with the DEs on pass rushing, some have speculated that it was more an effort to get him better at getting off blocks when he blitzes from his LB spot, but others are convinced that he will be putting his hand in the dirt and coming off an end... Griff seems to agree that AB will be playing some end for us this year.... my question is why? going into a contract year, why are they handing his agent a reason to try and pull a bigger contract? lets say he does well in this new roll, are the Vikings then going to pay him like a top pass rusher and move Griff? are they going to showcase his talents early and then move him before the trade deadline? (in a push for a superbowl... highly unlikely) I dont understand the thought process here unless Zim has crazy new scheme that he wants to deploy and none of the other DEs that we have on the roster will fit the roll?
I still question the team setting up his agent to demand an even higher pay day considering it already looks like we wont be able to pay them all.
I think you're incorrectly thinking that the Vikings are a monolith. Zimmer's job is to win. I doubt he thinks too much about contracts. He probably thinks that Barr can add another dimension to his pass rush. And if that helps us win, I'm all for it. Think about what you're saying here. Damn, if I found out that Zimmer intentionally held something back in the interest of saving money, I'd be pretty pissed. And think about how Barr would feel.
I am not saying its in the interest of saving money... as much as not losing the players. everybody tries to make that claim that makes it sound like its about being cheap, its about maybe sandbagging the player a bit in this contract season to maybe save a couple million in order maybe be able to resign another guy... I mean if this was in Barrs wheel house, then why are we only now seeing it in year 5? It strikes me as odd with the timing is all, why wait until the player has one foot out the door to try and increase his skill set? Has Barr turned a corner in the last year where he is suddenly in a better position to make this vast improvement in his contribution? I just dont see it. maybe it will be a new wrinkle, but I am not seeing the huge upside yet when I walk through who comes off and who could come on in a nickle situation. its not like we have a stud S on the sidelines or another LB that could really put things over the top when we send LJ to the bench for a pass rush specialist.
I'm actually shocked that it's taken us this long to use him this way. I thought when he was drafted that the Vikings could easily put him on the Doleman track to DE. They were nearly identical in size and skillset when drafted. I guess Barr just fit too well into that off-the-ball Sam/coverage role that Zimmer values so much. I think the only reason it's happening now is because Zimmer wants a better rotation to keep his pass rushers fresh. Could add a nice element of confusion when the offense has no idea where Barr will line up next. Is he rushing the A-gap, dropping into coverage, coming off the edge with his hand in the dirt? And if so, where's Hunter? I wouldn't want to have to plan for that.
i understand the positional flexibility angle, i dont understand the timing of it is all. year 2, 3, or 4...makes sense imo, his last year here... makes no sense, why develop a future around a player on his way out potentially.... at a position of strength already? unless they are looking at signing Barr and moving him to DE and moving Hunter? I dont see the hocus pocus angle of some cream yourself new scheme that will keep opposing teams up all night... we already have that defense. I am concernced a bit about getting to cute and ending up having people out of position or miscast in an effort to show something new.
What makes you think we already have that defense? 2018 is a new year. Offenses have been figuring out last years defense for 8+ months now. Remember all the consternation and doom when our DBs looked like crap against Seattle in the preseason last year? Turns out Zimmer had a plan and was innovating as he usually does. He didn't rest on his double A gap look that confused QBs. He pressed forward. Last year was pattern matching and different coverage concepts in the secondary. This year? Who knows, but having a LB that blitzes get some work getting better at that is a good thing. And it may be a new wrinkle, a new look, or it may simply be Barr getting better.
Zimmer doesn't sit still and think he has the best defense. He innovates and keeps ahead of the offenses. So I will give him that benefit of the doubt even if it makes Barr more expensive.
time will tell, it just seems odd as hell to take a pro bowl LB out of position to play another position when you dont have anybody even close to his ability to play LB... I think the whole deal is just odd. it would be like if we took Waynes and moved him to S on certain plays and then brought in Sherels to play CB. i just dont see who would come on the field in a LB/DB roll to take Barrs place that would have any upside over leaving Barr at LB and bringing another DE like BRob in.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
time will tell, it just seems odd as hell to take a pro bowl LB out of position to play another position when you dont have anybody even close to his ability to play LB... I think the whole deal is just odd. it would be like if we took Waynes and moved him to S on certain plays and then brought in Sherels to play CB. i just dont see who would come on the field in a LB/DB roll to take Barrs place that would have any upside over leaving Barr at LB and bringing another DE like BRob in.
Funny analogy. Cuz I think I recall Rhodes playing safety on a few snaps last year. It may have been another DB, but I think I recall Rhodes.
As to Barr, i mentioned earlier, it may be BRobs Joker spot. And as teams run smaller and quicker backs out of the backfield, why couldn't Smith roll up as that cover LB? Who knows what he has designed. Can't wait to see it.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
time will tell, it just seems odd as hell to take a pro bowl LB out of position to play another position when you dont have anybody even close to his ability to play LB... I think the whole deal is just odd. it would be like if we took Waynes and moved him to S on certain plays and then brought in Sherels to play CB. i just dont see who would come on the field in a LB/DB roll to take Barrs place that would have any upside over leaving Barr at LB and bringing another DE like BRob in.
Funny analogy. Cuz I think I recall Rhodes playing safety on a few snaps last year. It may have been another DB, but I think I recall Rhodes.
As to Barr, i mentioned earlier, it may be BRobs Joker spot. And as teams run smaller and quicker backs out of the backfield, why couldn't Smith roll up as that cover LB? Who knows what he has designed. Can't wait to see it.
they already have Smith up at the line quite often in passing situations... thats my confusion on this, we dont have anybody that IMO would be better at the LB roll or able to fill one of the S roles in that situation, unless this is Zim trying to get his old boy Newman a role in the new defense since it sounds like Hughes and Hill will be challenging hard for those 3rd and 4th DB rolls? It will be interesting to see what is up once the games are for real, but the timing of it all seems odd to me with it being potentially Barrs last year here... just like I dont see them expanding BRobs roll in the defense considering what he has said about this being his swan song season.
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