Quote: @"JimmyinSD" said:
@"MarkSP18" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"MarkSP18" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"MarkSP18" said:
Zimmer can say that but his defense crapped the bed in the most important game of the season. Is that because he played 4 DL over 66% of the snaps during the year. Philly only had one guy play that many snaps and rotated 9.
Let’s say the Vikings sign Richardson to a 4 yr 44 mil deal and extend Barr, Kendricks, and Hunter,
Here is how the cap hits could look with some of the current actual cap hits included for the 10 players on defense …
Barr – 4 yr 44 mil
Kendricks – 4 yr 37 mil
Hunter – 5 yr 70 mil
Richardson – 4 yr 44 mil
Player : 2018 : 2019 : 2020 : 2021 : 2022
Everson Griffen : $11,600,000 : $11,900,000 : $13,900,000 : $14,400,000 : $15,500,000
Linval Joseph : $8,050,000 : $10,700,000 : $13,300,000 : $12,450,000 : $12,500,000
Anthony Barr : $10,100,000 : $10,100,000 : $12,100,000 : $12,100,000
Eric Kendricks : $4,100,000 : $10,100,000 : $11,100,000 : $12,100,000
Xavier Rhodes : $13,400,000 : $13,400,000 : $12,900,000 : $14,150,000 : $13,850,000
Harrison Smith : $10,000,000 : $10,750,000 : $10,750,000 : $10,250,000
Trae Waynes : $4,118,663 : $9,000,000
Danielle Hunter : $6,100,000 : $14,100,000 : $15,100,000 : $17,100,000 : $18,100,000
Andrew Sendejo : $3,500,000 : $5,500,000
Sheldon Richardson : $5,100,000 : $11,100,000 : $14,100,000 : $14,100,000
Total : $76,068,663 : $106,650,000 : $103,250,000 : $106,650,000 : $59,950,000
This is without adding in Waynes extension.
You are looking at over 100 mil for the top 10 players on defense in 2019, 2020, & 2021.
Even if you just extend Tom Johnson (2 years 3 mil) and Stephen (2 years 2.5 mil) you still are pretty high for his defense.
It does not leave much for the offense.
Zimmer and Spielman is going to have to learn from Belichek and realize that sometimes you have to trade a good player that you just cannot afford.
Belichek did this with Jamie Collins and Chandler Jones.
and belichek has the luxury of having lucked into one of the greatest QBs to play the game ( not to mention cheating like a mother fucker) . we dont have a brady on the shelf and paying cousins like he is brady wont afford us the same luxury as actually having a great QB would.
And what does that have to do with paying everyone on the defense top dollar?
Even if they could get one of the current QBs for around 18 to 20 mil it will be tight.
Diggs is going to get paid and then they will likely need to bump up Thielen.
The point is even stronger because the cheating lucky Patriots still did not pay their young defenders top dollar.
No reason not to if they follow the logic here.
you are going to pay your strengths, the pats have the luxury of having a guy that can carry an offense and cover up for weakesses on D. we dont have that guy so in order to be competitive we have to pay more players top dollar for their market value. a player of bradys ability is so rare that to try and say that what the pats do is some sort of thing to model your team after is crazy. bradys talent is about once a generation, the rest of the team have to do what they can to keep up.
The Vikings decided a while back when they hired Zim that the team focus was going to be a strong D, the drafting has shown that effort and now we are having to pay for it. sooner or later we will hit on our franchise QB and we may be able to take shortcuts at other positions, but until then we need to try and do what we can to keep in the hunt.
the patriots paid somebody besides Tom, everybody has to spend within a % of the cap so its not like they arent spending their money. what is the breakdown on how their cap is allocated O vs D? how about in the past? doesnt it stand to reason that that ratio will move depending on the experience level of the players in that core? right now our D is at their prime and the cap allocation is showing that, in a few years ours could be tilted the other way as Diggs, Elf, Cook, and possibly others start to eat their share of the cap.
what happened to the faith in Brez to make it work?
Come on dude. You are here all the time and know a lot! You do not need Brez to look at the current cap situation and how much the players are being paid on defense and then figure out what Barr, Kendricks, Hunter, and Waynes could get on their next deal.
Add those amounts in any way you want (not too many available) and you are paying your top 9 defenders over 100 mil of the cap.
Sounds to me that you would rather pay all of the defenders top dollar and go the cheap route at QB.
Fair enough.
I want to pay the top players ( regardless of what side of the ball) top dollar. I dont view cousins as a top player so I do not agree with paying him top dollar. I am not saying go "cheap" at QB, I am saying get value at every position. If we overpay even a few million to any position that isnt generating at the level that we are paying then this house of cards comes crashing down.... it likely will at some point anyway, but no need to hasten the failure by adding players at wages above their level of contribution. I honestly have nothing against cousins, except that I think he is being way overvalued. yes a top level QB can generate the results that merit that pay, but this is getting stupid when you look at performance of some of these high dollar guys vs what the cheap ones are returning. (this again though goes for all positions)
Fair enough. But it is getting very close to not being able to pay everyone on the defensive side of the ball.
Quote: @"MarkSP18" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"MarkSP18" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"MarkSP18" said:
@"JimmyinSD" said:
@"MarkSP18" said:
Zimmer can say that but his defense crapped the bed in the most important game of the season. Is that because he played 4 DL over 66% of the snaps during the year. Philly only had one guy play that many snaps and rotated 9.
Let’s say the Vikings sign Richardson to a 4 yr 44 mil deal and extend Barr, Kendricks, and Hunter,
Here is how the cap hits could look with some of the current actual cap hits included for the 10 players on defense …
Barr – 4 yr 44 mil
Kendricks – 4 yr 37 mil
Hunter – 5 yr 70 mil
Richardson – 4 yr 44 mil
Player : 2018 : 2019 : 2020 : 2021 : 2022
Everson Griffen : $11,600,000 : $11,900,000 : $13,900,000 : $14,400,000 : $15,500,000
Linval Joseph : $8,050,000 : $10,700,000 : $13,300,000 : $12,450,000 : $12,500,000
Anthony Barr : $10,100,000 : $10,100,000 : $12,100,000 : $12,100,000
Eric Kendricks : $4,100,000 : $10,100,000 : $11,100,000 : $12,100,000
Xavier Rhodes : $13,400,000 : $13,400,000 : $12,900,000 : $14,150,000 : $13,850,000
Harrison Smith : $10,000,000 : $10,750,000 : $10,750,000 : $10,250,000
Trae Waynes : $4,118,663 : $9,000,000
Danielle Hunter : $6,100,000 : $14,100,000 : $15,100,000 : $17,100,000 : $18,100,000
Andrew Sendejo : $3,500,000 : $5,500,000
Sheldon Richardson : $5,100,000 : $11,100,000 : $14,100,000 : $14,100,000
Total : $76,068,663 : $106,650,000 : $103,250,000 : $106,650,000 : $59,950,000
This is without adding in Waynes extension.
You are looking at over 100 mil for the top 10 players on defense in 2019, 2020, & 2021.
Even if you just extend Tom Johnson (2 years 3 mil) and Stephen (2 years 2.5 mil) you still are pretty high for his defense.
It does not leave much for the offense.
Zimmer and Spielman is going to have to learn from Belichek and realize that sometimes you have to trade a good player that you just cannot afford.
Belichek did this with Jamie Collins and Chandler Jones.
and belichek has the luxury of having lucked into one of the greatest QBs to play the game ( not to mention cheating like a mother fucker) . we dont have a brady on the shelf and paying cousins like he is brady wont afford us the same luxury as actually having a great QB would.
And what does that have to do with paying everyone on the defense top dollar?
Even if they could get one of the current QBs for around 18 to 20 mil it will be tight.
Diggs is going to get paid and then they will likely need to bump up Thielen.
The point is even stronger because the cheating lucky Patriots still did not pay their young defenders top dollar.
No reason not to if they follow the logic here.
you are going to pay your strengths, the pats have the luxury of having a guy that can carry an offense and cover up for weakesses on D. we dont have that guy so in order to be competitive we have to pay more players top dollar for their market value. a player of bradys ability is so rare that to try and say that what the pats do is some sort of thing to model your team after is crazy. bradys talent is about once a generation, the rest of the team have to do what they can to keep up.
The Vikings decided a while back when they hired Zim that the team focus was going to be a strong D, the drafting has shown that effort and now we are having to pay for it. sooner or later we will hit on our franchise QB and we may be able to take shortcuts at other positions, but until then we need to try and do what we can to keep in the hunt.
the patriots paid somebody besides Tom, everybody has to spend within a % of the cap so its not like they arent spending their money. what is the breakdown on how their cap is allocated O vs D? how about in the past? doesnt it stand to reason that that ratio will move depending on the experience level of the players in that core? right now our D is at their prime and the cap allocation is showing that, in a few years ours could be tilted the other way as Diggs, Elf, Cook, and possibly others start to eat their share of the cap.
what happened to the faith in Brez to make it work?
Come on dude. You are here all the time and know a lot! You do not need Brez to look at the current cap situation and how much the players are being paid on defense and then figure out what Barr, Kendricks, Hunter, and Waynes could get on their next deal.
Add those amounts in any way you want (not too many available) and you are paying your top 9 defenders over 100 mil of the cap.
Sounds to me that you would rather pay all of the defenders top dollar and go the cheap route at QB.
Fair enough.
I want to pay the top players ( regardless of what side of the ball) top dollar. I dont view cousins as a top player so I do not agree with paying him top dollar. I am not saying go "cheap" at QB, I am saying get value at every position. If we overpay even a few million to any position that isnt generating at the level that we are paying then this house of cards comes crashing down.... it likely will at some point anyway, but no need to hasten the failure by adding players at wages above their level of contribution. I honestly have nothing against cousins, except that I think he is being way overvalued. yes a top level QB can generate the results that merit that pay, but this is getting stupid when you look at performance of some of these high dollar guys vs what the cheap ones are returning. (this again though goes for all positions)
Fair enough. But it is getting very close to not being able to pay everyone on the defensive side of the ball.
oh... I agree. I am looking at a few top dollar guys and wondering how essential they really are vs the cost of their replacements.
Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
More from Zim. Very interesting stuff here. Do I sense a little Cousins caution in his tone?
“I don’t want to talk about windows and things like that because I’m hoping it’s more than a window – I’m hoping it’s wide-open spaces,” Zimmer said. “But I do think we have a good nucleus as a team.
“I think it’s really, really important that we understand – and I’m not just saying this – we’ve won 40 games in the last four years,” Zimmer added. “We’ve done that by being pretty good on defense. This year obviously the offense was much better, but part of the reason we’ve been winning games and staying in games is because we’ve been playing good on defense, and we’ve been a smart team and all those things.
“I want to be really careful about taking away from our strength and saying, ‘OK we’re not going to be able to do this, and we’re not going to be able to do that anymore because of financial reasons or something else.’ ”
“I like these guys. I appreciate everything that they’ve done,” Zimmer said of his roster. “We have to get better as a team. I think we have a good nucleus as a team. The offensive line improved, we saw receivers make great catches last year, some really tough contested catches. [ Dalvin Cook], I think he’s going to be pretty darn good. Defensively, I think we can continue to get better.
“The one thing I told [General Manager] Rick [Spielman] was, I said look, we’ve had a good team, that’s why we’ve won 40 games. It’s not because we’ve had this one guy or that one guy,” Zimmer added. “Let’s make sure we keep understanding the team is why we have done good things.”
...
“The most difficult part is not picking the right one,” Zimmer said. “If you pick the right one, if you go with the right one and he does like you anticipate, then everything is good, if you pick the wrong one, it’s hard to win in this league without a quarterback.
“If you pick the wrong one, this whole thing can go downhill,” Zimmer said.
Sounds like Zim & @JimmyinSD are in lock step in their thinking...
I'm all in on whatever, I've said this from Day One, but if Zimmer isn't interested in trying to get a top QB because he's concerned about 'defensive talent' and how a QB would impact that salary cap-wise, the team will only ever be so good. It will be limited. Bridesmaids forever.
Its a freakin' QBs league in the NFL. He can quote all the stats he wants, but the only stat that counts is a complete ass kicking in a NFC Championship game and a 1-2 record in the playoffs. Let's not be the Kansas City Chiefs.
Quote: @"MarkSP18" said:
Zimmer can say that but his defense crapped the bed in the most important game of the season. Is that because he played 4 DL over 66% of the snaps during the year. Philly only had one guy play that many snaps and rotated 9.
Let’s say the Vikings sign Richardson to a 4 yr 44 mil deal and extend Barr, Kendricks, and Hunter,
Here is how the cap hits could look with some of the current actual cap hits included for the 10 players on defense …
Barr – 4 yr 44 mil
Kendricks – 4 yr 37 mil
Hunter – 5 yr 70 mil
Richardson – 4 yr 44 mil
Player : 2018 : 2019 : 2020 : 2021 : 2022
Everson Griffen : $11,600,000 : $11,900,000 : $13,900,000 : $14,400,000 : $15,500,000
Linval Joseph : $8,050,000 : $10,700,000 : $13,300,000 : $12,450,000 : $12,500,000
Anthony Barr : $10,100,000 : $10,100,000 : $12,100,000 : $12,100,000
Eric Kendricks : $4,100,000 : $10,100,000 : $11,100,000 : $12,100,000
Xavier Rhodes : $13,400,000 : $13,400,000 : $12,900,000 : $14,150,000 : $13,850,000
Harrison Smith : $10,000,000 : $10,750,000 : $10,750,000 : $10,250,000
Trae Waynes : $4,118,663 : $9,000,000
Danielle Hunter : $6,100,000 : $14,100,000 : $15,100,000 : $17,100,000 : $18,100,000
Andrew Sendejo : $3,500,000 : $5,500,000
Sheldon Richardson : $5,100,000 : $11,100,000 : $14,100,000 : $14,100,000
Total : $76,068,663 : $106,650,000 : $103,250,000 : $106,650,000 : $59,950,000
This is without adding in Waynes extension.
You are looking at over 100 mil for the top 10 players on defense in 2019, 2020, & 2021.
Even if you just extend Tom Johnson (2 years 3 mil) and Stephen (2 years 2.5 mil) you still are pretty high for his defense.
It does not leave much for the offense.
Zimmer and Spielman is going to have to learn from Belichek and realize that sometimes you have to trade a good player that you just cannot afford.
Belichek did this with Jamie Collins and Chandler Jones.
Good analysis. Its interesting to hear Zimmer talk about being careful to not pay one guy too much (ie Cousins), at the expense of other players, most likely talking about resigning players on the vaunted defense.
So to him its OK to pay reasonably big money extensions for a group of players on a defense that got ripped the last couple quarters against the Saints, and pretty much shredded against the Eagles. But its not OK to spend big on a pretty good QB, to solidify the most important position on the team? And yes I get the 'group' vs 'one guy' thing, but until that defense and Zimmers coaching can carry us to a SB win I will remain a little skeptical about the value of having the #1 defense when it cant hold up in the playoffs, Champioship game, and until the coach gets better at calling the defense in big games.
I would argue its easier to find players (ie mid level free agents and draft picks) to fill out the defense if you cant resign everyone, than it is to constantly spend high draft picks ( Ponder, Bridgewater, Bradford) or hoping jouneymen like Keenum can have magical seasons to solve your QB position over the long term.
I also agree with the idea of if you do not have an intention of resigning your higher draft picks on defense, then trade them while you can for as much as you can get and reload via the draft or with other reasonably priced free agents. For example, will we have to decide to resign only one of Kendricks or Barr? If so I would lean towards Kendricks and try to trade Barr. Kendricks plays all over the field and you never have to questions his effort, where as Barr and coasts per Zimmer and does not seem to make a huge impact consistently.
Not a fan of what Zimmer said today at this presser. Scared, conservative mentality. Old school garbage that doesn't win Superbowls.
Quote: @"StickyBun" said:
Not a fan of what Zimmer said today at this presser. Scared, conservative mentality. Old school garbage that doesn't win Superbowls.
Or really good subterfuge...  B)
Quote: @"MarkSP18" said:
Zimmer can say that but his defense crapped the bed in the most important game of the season. Is that because he played 4 DL over 66% of the snaps during the year. Philly only had one guy play that many snaps and rotated 9.
Let’s say the Vikings sign Richardson to a 4 yr 44 mil deal and extend Barr, Kendricks, and Hunter,
Here is how the cap hits could look with some of the current actual cap hits included for the 10 players on defense …
Barr – 4 yr 44 mil
Kendricks – 4 yr 37 mil
Hunter – 5 yr 70 mil
Richardson – 4 yr 44 mil
Player : 2018 : 2019 : 2020 : 2021 : 2022
Everson Griffen : $11,600,000 : $11,900,000 : $13,900,000 : $14,400,000 : $15,500,000
Linval Joseph : $8,050,000 : $10,700,000 : $13,300,000 : $12,450,000 : $12,500,000
Anthony Barr : $10,100,000 : $10,100,000 : $12,100,000 : $12,100,000
Eric Kendricks : $4,100,000 : $10,100,000 : $11,100,000 : $12,100,000
Xavier Rhodes : $13,400,000 : $13,400,000 : $12,900,000 : $14,150,000 : $13,850,000
Harrison Smith : $10,000,000 : $10,750,000 : $10,750,000 : $10,250,000
Trae Waynes : $4,118,663 : $9,000,000
Danielle Hunter : $6,100,000 : $14,100,000 : $15,100,000 : $17,100,000 : $18,100,000
Andrew Sendejo : $3,500,000 : $5,500,000
Sheldon Richardson : $5,100,000 : $11,100,000 : $14,100,000 : $14,100,000
Total : $76,068,663 : $106,650,000 : $103,250,000 : $106,650,000 : $59,950,000
This is without adding in Waynes extension.
You are looking at over 100 mil for the top 10 players on defense in 2019, 2020, & 2021.
Even if you just extend Tom Johnson (2 years 3 mil) and Stephen (2 years 2.5 mil) you still are pretty high for his defense.
It does not leave much for the offense.
Zimmer and Spielman is going to have to learn from Belichek and realize that sometimes you have to trade a good player that you just cannot afford.
Belichek did this with Jamie Collins and Chandler Jones.
I think your estimate on Barr, Hunter, Kendricks and others is a bit high in terms of what the Vikes will be willing to pay. It appears you have every guy on our D earning top 5 in the league type cash. I think the team will bargain a bit harder than that.
There hasn't been any talent on offense worthy of big pay lately. They have some that will come due soon, they'll have to balance the needs.
Quote: @"comet52" said:
@"MarkSP18" said:
Zimmer can say that but his defense crapped the bed in the most important game of the season. Is that because he played 4 DL over 66% of the snaps during the year. Philly only had one guy play that many snaps and rotated 9.
Let’s say the Vikings sign Richardson to a 4 yr 44 mil deal and extend Barr, Kendricks, and Hunter,
Here is how the cap hits could look with some of the current actual cap hits included for the 10 players on defense …
Barr – 4 yr 44 mil
Kendricks – 4 yr 37 mil
Hunter – 5 yr 70 mil
Richardson – 4 yr 44 mil
Player : 2018 : 2019 : 2020 : 2021 : 2022
Everson Griffen : $11,600,000 : $11,900,000 : $13,900,000 : $14,400,000 : $15,500,000
Linval Joseph : $8,050,000 : $10,700,000 : $13,300,000 : $12,450,000 : $12,500,000
Anthony Barr : $10,100,000 : $10,100,000 : $12,100,000 : $12,100,000
Eric Kendricks : $4,100,000 : $10,100,000 : $11,100,000 : $12,100,000
Xavier Rhodes : $13,400,000 : $13,400,000 : $12,900,000 : $14,150,000 : $13,850,000
Harrison Smith : $10,000,000 : $10,750,000 : $10,750,000 : $10,250,000
Trae Waynes : $4,118,663 : $9,000,000
Danielle Hunter : $6,100,000 : $14,100,000 : $15,100,000 : $17,100,000 : $18,100,000
Andrew Sendejo : $3,500,000 : $5,500,000
Sheldon Richardson : $5,100,000 : $11,100,000 : $14,100,000 : $14,100,000
Total : $76,068,663 : $106,650,000 : $103,250,000 : $106,650,000 : $59,950,000
This is without adding in Waynes extension.
You are looking at over 100 mil for the top 10 players on defense in 2019, 2020, & 2021.
Even if you just extend Tom Johnson (2 years 3 mil) and Stephen (2 years 2.5 mil) you still are pretty high for his defense.
It does not leave much for the offense.
Zimmer and Spielman is going to have to learn from Belichek and realize that sometimes you have to trade a good player that you just cannot afford.
Belichek did this with Jamie Collins and Chandler Jones.
I think your estimate on Barr, Hunter, Kendricks and others is a bit high in terms of what the Vikes will be willing to pay. It appears you have every guy on our D earning top 5 in the league type cash. I think the team will bargain a bit harder than that.
You may be right. No doubt. But the question is what will there agents ask for?
Let's look at these players.
I compared Hunter to Olivier Vernon and Jason Pierre-Paul
Hunter has 135 tackles, 25.5 sacks, and 3 forced fumbles in his first 3 years while only starting 17 games.
Vernon had 135 tackles, 21.5 sacks, and 3 forced fumbles in his first 3 years while only starting 30 games.
JPP had 182 tackles, 27.5 sacks, and 3 forced fumbles in his first 5 years while only starting 27 games.
I mean, if you are Hunter’s agent, what are you going to show Spielman? These numbers and the money these other dudes are getting.
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Looking at Barr. He compared closer to Dont'a Hightower who signed a 4 year 32.5 mil deal last year. But will his agent accept that offer from the Vikings or want to go out there and see if he could get a 4 year 44 mil deal similar to Telvin Smith?
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/outside-linebacker/
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Eric Kendricks compares very favorably to Alec Ogletree who signed a 4 year 42.75 mil deal last year.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/inside-linebacker/
This is how I guesstimate contracts. I think it is logical and fair.
What do you think they should get or ask for?
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