Quote: @"Mike Olson" said:
Man if anyone doesn't think that both Randall Cunningham AND Brad Johnson both got bailed out by three deep..... I don't know what they were watching. That isn't to say that they didn't both play well..... But without Moss's ability those deep throws don't get completed nearly enough. Jake Reed was the master of the circus catch (and oddly enough he dropped some easy catches) and Carter.... come on.... It's Carter.
Exactly what I was thinking reading this thread and would've posted if you hadn't already. Vikes have some good receivers now but they sure as hell don't compare to what the Vikes had in '98. Moss and Carter are one of the best WR duos in history and Reed was no slouch. I really enjoyed the OP's write up, great ride down memory lane.
Pointing out that Keenum is getting bailed out quite a bit by his receivers and not pointing out the same thing for Cunningham and Johnson is not being fair to what Case has accomplished so far this year.
Quote: @"headhunt23" said:
@"Mike Olson" said:
Man if anyone doesn't think that both Randall Cunningham AND Brad Johnson both got bailed out by three deep..... I don't know what they were watching. That isn't to say that they didn't both play well..... But without Moss's ability those deep throws don't get completed nearly enough. Jake Reed was the master of the circus catch (and oddly enough he dropped some easy catches) and Carter.... come on.... It's Carter.
My point was that one QB relied on a lot more of those long bomb plays than the other. You didnt see Johnson chucking it up deep to covered WRs and letting them make a play.
And the ‘98 team was fun to watch...until it wasn’t. Randall left a lot of stuff on the table in that second half when he kept trying to throw it deep to Moss.
Johnson wouldnt have done that. And I will go to my grave knowing (not thinking) that Johnson wins that game.
I seem to remember Johnson throwing to a double and triple covered Moss plenty. And for good reason.
Quote: @"golfervike" said:
"Because, right now many folks have nice big chubbies for Case because he’s winning games and he’s seemingly playing decently. They aren’t noticing that Keenum is getting bailed out by his WRs on lots of catches and that he could easily have more INTs due to how inaccurate some of his passes are. And they are ignoring his history of being a journeyman back up QB.
If this team goes into the playoffs with Keenum as the starter, we can all look forward to another episode of heart break as a good CB takes away one of his behind the WR balls or takes a lollipop thrown on an out 72 yards for a house call. "
so this entire lengthy post is basically summed up by literally saying nothing. "seemingly playing decent" "bailed out by WR's" "history of being a Journyman backup QB"....
this is hyperbole, it means absolutely nothing. all just fun catch phrases, and maybe's, hypothetical. News flash, great WR's want the ball just thrown up to them, and let them go make a play...
And this is under the assumption that some seem to have that Teddy is a top 10 QB in this league.
Again- the infatuation with the QB2 in this town is simply amazing. It's amazing some fans want a QB who was middling, at best his first two years. Then is off 18 months away from the game from a horrific injury.
First of all, the word you looking for is “assumption” not “hyperbole”. There is absolutely nothing hyperbolic about what I wrote. I do make lots of assumption, mainly that Case Keenum is Case Keenum and will remain Case Keenum.
And I make those assumptions because, as doucey as this sounds, because I know you are too, I’m watching the games.
in Keenum I see a QB that makes 4-5 totally WTF throws a game. You can get by with that when youre playing the Browns or the Aaron Rodgers-less Packers (when he threw one pick and had defenders get hands on three more which they dropped). You arent going to get by with it against Philly.
I also see a QB whose stats are boosted by the play calling in the Red Zone. Yes. Keenum has 4 TD passes yesterday. Average distance traveled was about 4 yards. The long was about 7. In 2015 We run the ball in that situation, which is one of the reasons Teddy’s TD numbers were always low. Hell, in 2014 Matt Asiata had like 9 rushing TDs.
I also see a QB who lacks the arm strength to thrownthe 20 yard out. Keenum is good at throwing fly routes (and actually Ponder was decent at this as well), and other routes where he doesn’t have to put a zip on the ball. I’d say its great he knows this linitation, but he just tried throwing a 15 yard out to Rudolph that was almost returned for a TD when he threw it late and didnt see the safety.
Lastly I see a QB playing behind a top 10 offensive line, which is a far better unit than we had in 2015, throwing to WRs that are better than we had in 2015, and in an offensive system that is better designed for the QB instead of for the RB.
Regardless, watch the Saints or the Pats or the Steelers. Count the number of WTF moments those QBs have. Then count up Keenum’s. He will make 3-4 more of those a game, and those 3-4 are often the difference between winning and losing.
Case Keenum is a GREAT back up. I LOVE him as a back up. So glad he gas been here and hes a beautiful success story for Rick for getting him in here. But he wont beat Brees or Brady in the playoffs.
And Ill admit that Teddy might not either. Because Teddy usually gave us 2 or so WTF moments a week. But hes a better bet than Keenum.
Quote: @"headhunt23" said:
@"golfervike" said:
"Because, right now many folks have nice big chubbies for Case because he’s winning games and he’s seemingly playing decently. They aren’t noticing that Keenum is getting bailed out by his WRs on lots of catches and that he could easily have more INTs due to how inaccurate some of his passes are. And they are ignoring his history of being a journeyman back up QB.
If this team goes into the playoffs with Keenum as the starter, we can all look forward to another episode of heart break as a good CB takes away one of his behind the WR balls or takes a lollipop thrown on an out 72 yards for a house call. "
so this entire lengthy post is basically summed up by literally saying nothing. "seemingly playing decent" "bailed out by WR's" "history of being a Journyman backup QB"....
this is hyperbole, it means absolutely nothing. all just fun catch phrases, and maybe's, hypothetical. News flash, great WR's want the ball just thrown up to them, and let them go make a play...
And this is under the assumption that some seem to have that Teddy is a top 10 QB in this league.
Again- the infatuation with the QB2 in this town is simply amazing. It's amazing some fans want a QB who was middling, at best his first two years. Then is off 18 months away from the game from a horrific injury.
First of all, the word you looking for is “assumption” not “hyperbole”. There is absolutely nothing hyperbolic about what I wrote. I do make lots of assumption, mainly that Case Keenum is Case Keenum and will remain Case Keenum.
And I make those assumptions because, as doucey as this sounds, because I know you are too, I’m watching the games.
in Keenum I see a QB that makes 4-5 totally WTF throws a game. You can get by with that when youre playing the Browns or the Aaron Rodgers-less Packers (when he threw one pick and had defenders get hands on three more which they dropped). You arent going to get by with it against Philly.
I also see a QB whose stats are boosted by the play calling in the Red Zone. Yes. Keenum has 4 TD passes yesterday. Average distance traveled was about 4 yards. The long was about 7. In 2015 We run the ball in that situation, which is one of the reasons Teddy’s TD numbers were always low. Hell, in 2014 Matt Asiata had like 9 rushing TDs.
I also see a QB who lacks the arm strength to thrownthe 20 yard out. Keenum is good at throwing fly routes (and actually Ponder was decent at this as well), and other routes where he doesn’t have to put a zip on the ball. I’d say its great he knows this linitation, but he just tried throwing a 15 yard out to Rudolph that was almost returned for a TD when he threw it late and didnt see the safety.
Lastly I see a QB playing behind a top 10 offensive line, which is a far better unit than we had in 2015, throwing to WRs that are better than we had in 2015, and in an offensive system that is better designed for the QB instead of for the RB.
Regardless, watch the Saints or the Pats or the Steelers. Count the number of WTF moments those QBs have. Then count up Keenum’s. He will make 3-4 more of those a game, and those 3-4 are often the difference between winning and losing.
Case Keenum is a GREAT back up. I LOVE him as a back up. So glad he gas been here and hes a beautiful success story for Rick for getting him in here. But he wont beat Brees or Brady in the playoffs.
And Ill admit that Teddy might not either. Because Teddy usually gave us 2 or so WTF moments a week. But hes a better bet than Keenum.
I agree with what you said on almost all counts, i just worry Teddy is going to be far worse than Keenum in the immediate, and i dont think a player should lose his spot when they're winning and he's contributing to winning, and he's got the locker room behind him.
Good post, Headhunt. I said the same thing about the Johnson/Cunningham debate way back then and I'm saying the same thing now. Don't be fooled by Keenum.
Quote: @"golfervike" said:
@"headhunt23" said:
@"golfervike" said:
"Because, right now many folks have nice big chubbies for Case because he’s winning games and he’s seemingly playing decently. They aren’t noticing that Keenum is getting bailed out by his WRs on lots of catches and that he could easily have more INTs due to how inaccurate some of his passes are. And they are ignoring his history of being a journeyman back up QB.
If this team goes into the playoffs with Keenum as the starter, we can all look forward to another episode of heart break as a good CB takes away one of his behind the WR balls or takes a lollipop thrown on an out 72 yards for a house call. "
so this entire lengthy post is basically summed up by literally saying nothing. "seemingly playing decent" "bailed out by WR's" "history of being a Journyman backup QB"....
this is hyperbole, it means absolutely nothing. all just fun catch phrases, and maybe's, hypothetical. News flash, great WR's want the ball just thrown up to them, and let them go make a play...
And this is under the assumption that some seem to have that Teddy is a top 10 QB in this league.
Again- the infatuation with the QB2 in this town is simply amazing. It's amazing some fans want a QB who was middling, at best his first two years. Then is off 18 months away from the game from a horrific injury.
First of all, the word you looking for is “assumption” not “hyperbole”. There is absolutely nothing hyperbolic about what I wrote. I do make lots of assumption, mainly that Case Keenum is Case Keenum and will remain Case Keenum.
And I make those assumptions because, as doucey as this sounds, because I know you are too, I’m watching the games.
in Keenum I see a QB that makes 4-5 totally WTF throws a game. You can get by with that when youre playing the Browns or the Aaron Rodgers-less Packers (when he threw one pick and had defenders get hands on three more which they dropped). You arent going to get by with it against Philly.
I also see a QB whose stats are boosted by the play calling in the Red Zone. Yes. Keenum has 4 TD passes yesterday. Average distance traveled was about 4 yards. The long was about 7. In 2015 We run the ball in that situation, which is one of the reasons Teddy’s TD numbers were always low. Hell, in 2014 Matt Asiata had like 9 rushing TDs.
I also see a QB who lacks the arm strength to thrownthe 20 yard out. Keenum is good at throwing fly routes (and actually Ponder was decent at this as well), and other routes where he doesn’t have to put a zip on the ball. I’d say its great he knows this linitation, but he just tried throwing a 15 yard out to Rudolph that was almost returned for a TD when he threw it late and didnt see the safety.
Lastly I see a QB playing behind a top 10 offensive line, which is a far better unit than we had in 2015, throwing to WRs that are better than we had in 2015, and in an offensive system that is better designed for the QB instead of for the RB.
Regardless, watch the Saints or the Pats or the Steelers. Count the number of WTF moments those QBs have. Then count up Keenum’s. He will make 3-4 more of those a game, and those 3-4 are often the difference between winning and losing.
Case Keenum is a GREAT back up. I LOVE him as a back up. So glad he gas been here and hes a beautiful success story for Rick for getting him in here. But he wont beat Brees or Brady in the playoffs.
And Ill admit that Teddy might not either. Because Teddy usually gave us 2 or so WTF moments a week. But hes a better bet than Keenum.
I agree with what you said on almost all counts, i just worry Teddy is going to be far worse than Keenum in the immediate, and i dont think a player should lose his spot when they're winning and he's contributing to winning, and he's got the locker room behind him.
valid concerns, i think those calling for Teddy to get the nod when ready have the same concerns.
difference is we have greater concerns with the limitations in Case's game and are not glossing them over with things like W-L records or stats against weak defenses.
either way.. its gonna be a fun ride with meaningful games down the stretch at least, regardless of who is at QB.
I can buy the argument about Case getting lucky for 1 or 2 or even 3 weeks, but half a season? Come on.
Here are the top 10 in ESPN QBR so far this year:
| 1 | Deshaun Watson, HOU | 29.4 | 21.8 | 12.5 | 3.6 | 44.2 | 281 | 81.5 | 81.6 | | 2 | Dak Prescott, DAL | 31.5 | 28.8 | 19.2 | 2.5 | 56.5 | 366 | 77.2 | 74.9 | | 3 | Case Keenum, MIN | 23.5 | 37.2 | 3.8 | 4.7 | 48.2 | 300 | 75.2 | 72.6 | | 4 | Carson Wentz, PHI | 27.3 | 36.6 | 8.2 | 3.8 | 57.8 | 381 | 73.4 | 70.6 | | 5 | Tom Brady, NE | 27.2 | 48.1 | -2.0 | 4.6 | 60.3 | 407 | 72.0 | 69.7 | | 6 | Aaron Rodgers, GB | 9.2 | 13.4 | 5.4 | 2.3 | 29.2 | 253 | 62.6 | 63.3 | | 7 | Kirk Cousins, WSH | 11.7 | 26.3 | 3.9 | 2.1 | 43.5 | 378 | 60.7 | 62.9 | | 8 | Alex Smith, KC | 15.4 | 34.1 | 5.0 | -0.1 | 50.0 | 376 | 64.1 | 62.5 | | 9 | Matt Ryan, ATL | 11.8 | 30.6 | 2.7 | 2.2 | 43.1 | 346 | 61.9 | 59.6 | | 10 | Drew Brees, NO | 11.0 | 32.4 | 0.8 | 0.1 | 36.3 | 333 | 61.5 | 59.5 |
I think we could all easily agree that the everyone outside of Keenum in that group is a good to great QB. But Case has somehow just lucked his way into that group over 7.5 games and is no better than a career backup? I just don't buy it.
I'm also not saying that he is a top 3 QB obviously, but I don't see any way that he can be benched after what he has done with this team this year.
Case Keenums Opponents
Steelers 7-2 / #2 defense pts allowed
Bucs 3-6 / #18D
Lions 5-4 / #20 D
Bears 4-5 #13 D
Packers 5-4( one W without Rogers) #17 D
Ravens 4-5 #7 D
Browns 0-9 #29 D
Redskins 4-5 #26 D
He can only play who the schedule makers have on the schedule and part of these rankings are because they played against the Vikings, but he hasnt really been beating a murders row of defenses.
it will be what it is, but the argument can be made either way on Case.
Quote: @"golfervike" said:
@"headhunt23" said:
@"golfervike" said:
"Because, right now many folks have nice big chubbies for Case because he’s winning games and he’s seemingly playing decently. They aren’t noticing that Keenum is getting bailed out by his WRs on lots of catches and that he could easily have more INTs due to how inaccurate some of his passes are. And they are ignoring his history of being a journeyman back up QB.
If this team goes into the playoffs with Keenum as the starter, we can all look forward to another episode of heart break as a good CB takes away one of his behind the WR balls or takes a lollipop thrown on an out 72 yards for a house call. "
so this entire lengthy post is basically summed up by literally saying nothing. "seemingly playing decent" "bailed out by WR's" "history of being a Journyman backup QB"....
this is hyperbole, it means absolutely nothing. all just fun catch phrases, and maybe's, hypothetical. News flash, great WR's want the ball just thrown up to them, and let them go make a play...
And this is under the assumption that some seem to have that Teddy is a top 10 QB in this league.
Again- the infatuation with the QB2 in this town is simply amazing. It's amazing some fans want a QB who was middling, at best his first two years. Then is off 18 months away from the game from a horrific injury.
First of all, the word you looking for is “assumption” not “hyperbole”. There is absolutely nothing hyperbolic about what I wrote. I do make lots of assumption, mainly that Case Keenum is Case Keenum and will remain Case Keenum.
And I make those assumptions because, as doucey as this sounds, because I know you are too, I’m watching the games.
in Keenum I see a QB that makes 4-5 totally WTF throws a game. You can get by with that when youre playing the Browns or the Aaron Rodgers-less Packers (when he threw one pick and had defenders get hands on three more which they dropped). You arent going to get by with it against Philly.
I also see a QB whose stats are boosted by the play calling in the Red Zone. Yes. Keenum has 4 TD passes yesterday. Average distance traveled was about 4 yards. The long was about 7. In 2015 We run the ball in that situation, which is one of the reasons Teddy’s TD numbers were always low. Hell, in 2014 Matt Asiata had like 9 rushing TDs.
I also see a QB who lacks the arm strength to thrownthe 20 yard out. Keenum is good at throwing fly routes (and actually Ponder was decent at this as well), and other routes where he doesn’t have to put a zip on the ball. I’d say its great he knows this linitation, but he just tried throwing a 15 yard out to Rudolph that was almost returned for a TD when he threw it late and didnt see the safety.
Lastly I see a QB playing behind a top 10 offensive line, which is a far better unit than we had in 2015, throwing to WRs that are better than we had in 2015, and in an offensive system that is better designed for the QB instead of for the RB.
Regardless, watch the Saints or the Pats or the Steelers. Count the number of WTF moments those QBs have. Then count up Keenum’s. He will make 3-4 more of those a game, and those 3-4 are often the difference between winning and losing.
Case Keenum is a GREAT back up. I LOVE him as a back up. So glad he gas been here and hes a beautiful success story for Rick for getting him in here. But he wont beat Brees or Brady in the playoffs.
And Ill admit that Teddy might not either. Because Teddy usually gave us 2 or so WTF moments a week. But hes a better bet than Keenum.
I agree with what you said on almost all counts, i just worry Teddy is going to be far worse than Keenum in the immediate, and i dont think a player should lose his spot when they're winning and he's contributing to winning, and he's got the locker room behind him.
Why would Zimmer and Shurmer put him in if there was a chance Teddy would be far worse? The unspoken assumption about putting Teddy in is that what the coaches are seeing from him in practice is as good as what they're seeing from Case. If Teddy's looking really rusty in practice, then of course no Viking fan wants him in yet.
Quote: @"Scoog" said:
Why would Zimmer and Shurmer put him in if there was a chance Teddy would be far worse? The unspoken assumption about putting Teddy in is that what the coaches are seeing from him in practice is as good as what they're seeing from Case. If Teddy's looking really rusty in practice, then of course no Viking fan wants him in yet.
Well there is the thought (and it's a good one) that they need to see how he is in a game before the end of the season because they have to figure out if and at what level they are going to offer a contract.
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