Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
People like black and white. Good or bad. Competitive rebuild is too nebulous for most fans.
This. Folks complain about the living in today and tomorrow as if that's a bad thing. But that's what they should be doing.
Unless you believe the team should be torn down, which I think is absurd, you’re literally trying to set up a dominant roster for the future, while remaining a playoff team.
I believe that is called purgatory, or better known as mediocrity. Making the playoffs hasnt meant anything since they went to half the conference making the playoffs, hell it meant little more before that even, how often does a surprise team win a superbowl that hasnt undergone some major changes to really refocus their roster and add talent? ( the giants a few years back comes to mind as the last) I see "competitive rebuild" as ass covering for dragging out a decade of employment and not really every improving the teams chances for a Lombardi, break some damn eggs and get to making omlets IMO, but we are stuck for another year so buckle up for another exciting adventure.
I know you think the panacea to our misery is a tank and tear down, but I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think we're far FAR more likely to win a Super Bowl in the next 2-4 years doing exactly what we're doing.
I didnt say tank, I said be more proactive with players that are likely not the long term answer, like Cousin, like Hunter, etc if they have value now, but arent part of the long term plan as of now, quit fucking around and move them for value or if they are in the plans, get them under contract now for less than what it will cost next year, or if they wont sign a decent deal, then see the previous path. either way we will have a ton of cap space, but an empty closet and no additional draft capital to show for it.... and be picking in the middle to later part of each round. I know that higher draft picks fail too, but wouldnt you rather have your choice of the crop instead of letting 2/3 of the league get to pick ahead of you and still have the same expectation for success?
Jesus, Jimmy, you don't think there's just a teensy bit of value in waiting to see what kind of '23 they have before committing bajillions of dollars that will also have to work with the dollars going to JJ and TJ...and Darrisaw? Does Cousins improve a lot, a little or not at all in year two? What does Hall look like? Is Hunter a fit with Flores? Does someone like PJ2 or Carter emerge?
No, dammit! Shit or get off the pot! Sounds good in bites, but it's seldom the best approach.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
People like black and white. Good or bad. Competitive rebuild is too nebulous for most fans.
This. Folks complain about the living in today and tomorrow as if that's a bad thing. But that's what they should be doing.
Unless you believe the team should be torn down, which I think is absurd, you’re literally trying to set up a dominant roster for the future, while remaining a playoff team.
I believe that is called purgatory, or better known as mediocrity. Making the playoffs hasnt meant anything since they went to half the conference making the playoffs, hell it meant little more before that even, how often does a surprise team win a superbowl that hasnt undergone some major changes to really refocus their roster and add talent? ( the giants a few years back comes to mind as the last) I see "competitive rebuild" as ass covering for dragging out a decade of employment and not really every improving the teams chances for a Lombardi, break some damn eggs and get to making omlets IMO, but we are stuck for another year so buckle up for another exciting adventure.
I know you think the panacea to our misery is a tank and tear down, but I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think we're far FAR more likely to win a Super Bowl in the next 2-4 years doing exactly what we're doing.
I didnt say tank, I said be more proactive with players that are likely not the long term answer, like Cousin, like Hunter, etc if they have value now, but arent part of the long term plan as of now, quit fucking around and move them for value or if they are in the plans, get them under contract now for less than what it will cost next year, or if they wont sign a decent deal, then see the previous path. either way we will have a ton of cap space, but an empty closet and no additional draft capital to show for it.... and be picking in the middle to later part of each round. I know that higher draft picks fail too, but wouldnt you rather have your choice of the crop instead of letting 2/3 of the league get to pick ahead of you and still have the same expectation for success?
Jesus, Jimmy, you don't think there's just a teensy bit of value in waiting to see what kind of '23 they have before committing bajillions of dollars that will also have to work with the dollars going to JJ and TJ...and Darrisaw? Does Cousins improve a lot, a little or not at all in year two? What does Hall look like? Is Hunter a fit with Flores? Does someone like PJ2 or Carter emerge?
No, dammit! Shit or get off the pot! Sounds good in bites, but it's seldom the best approach.
no i dont, I dont think Cousins is the answer at QB, and the longer we keep fucking around with a guy that cant move even a little bit in the pocket to help his OL, and we cant afford to assemble the best OL to ever protect a statue pocket passer, then we are spinning our wheels. I would have locked up JJ, TJ ( although its debatable as to whether I would have even traded for him in the first place as I would have been looking for a rebuild year or two with a new QB in the mix ) I dont see a future Lombardi with Cousins and as such I think they are wasting time right now, so no, I dont see the value in waiting unless the only goal is to sell hope/hype, because I have seen a competitive rebuild for decades with this team and the results have never changed.
They need to fix their OL and DL first, then try and put together a competitive O and D behind them, nothing is going to change with the same ole OL and the same weak ass DL, scheme can only cover so many warts. If we had a QB that moved the pocket around and was able to make the blitz miss... our OL might be sufficient, if we had sticky DBs, or a DL that could get consistent pressure, our D might be sufficient, as of right now its a shit show with really good receivers, a super good guy with a hell of an arm for a QB, and a DE that apparently thinks hes the best in the league, but honestly is only top 1/4 for his position.
I think its great that you follow the team with those shaded glasses, I used to be that way, I am just not that way anymore. When there is something to get excited about, I will get excited, I will still enjoy watching the team on game day ( sometimes) but I am not going to get all worked up over nothing, and thus far the last 2 years havent really accomplished anything besides getting rid of bad money, but that was hardly a challenge since its not like we traded those deals away and got something in return. a couple questionable drafts, made some obvious cuts, and traded away a 2nd round pick for a nice TE.
Coaches have improved and that showed on O last year, I expect to see an improved D this year due to coaching, but its still not going to be enough to be that team in January that has the rest of the NFC, let along NFL, looking in fear at.
Quote: @minny65 said:
@ comet52 said:
Goessling pointed out that Kwesi frequently drops hints in pressers about "if we were doing it this other way", a clue that he is somewhat handcuffed due to the "super competitive" edict that comes out of Mark Wilf's mouth every time it opens.
Organizations are as good as the people at the top and don't be confused - the owners dictate the direction the ship sails, not the g.m. or the coach or anyone else. If you're happy with 10-7 and a playoff loss as a goal, then this ownership is perfect for you. Their p.r. says "We wanna win so bad!" but their actions say something entirely different. "We want to maximize profit and be good enough to keep the business revenue rolling." That is goal #1 and always will be. Getting you to buy in like "Oh my Super Bowl here we come" every year in August is their thing, and it works. Fans buy the same story out of ownership year after year, just like Charlie Brown buys that Lucy won't put him on his ass this time around.
I disagree with this about our ownership. They consistently spend to max CAP number and have since they took over. I am not sure what else they can do to show that they want to win-it-all?
Oh and our training facility and stadium are consistently ranked as one of the best.
Wanting doesn't matter. I want a million dollar salary. Fans crediting owners for wanting a title is pretty hilarious imo - what NFL owner doesn't want a title? Wow, what an accomplishment... they want one!
I could write a laundry list of their missteps along the way on the football side. They don't impress me for a variety of reasons I've written about many times here and elsewhere, but I'm not up for rehashing all that; most fans think nice buildings = greatness. I think genuinely competing for titles = greatness. Haven't seen any of that in their 18 years here other than 2009. The only hope at this point is the new KAM/KOC regime somehow gets to where Rick, Mike and the rest couldn't. I'm optimistic they might overcome the inertial championship dampers that are the Wilfs, but one never knows.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
People like black and white. Good or bad. Competitive rebuild is too nebulous for most fans.
This. Folks complain about the living in today and tomorrow as if that's a bad thing. But that's what they should be doing.
Unless you believe the team should be torn down, which I think is absurd, you’re literally trying to set up a dominant roster for the future, while remaining a playoff team.
I believe that is called purgatory, or better known as mediocrity. Making the playoffs hasnt meant anything since they went to half the conference making the playoffs, hell it meant little more before that even, how often does a surprise team win a superbowl that hasnt undergone some major changes to really refocus their roster and add talent? ( the giants a few years back comes to mind as the last) I see "competitive rebuild" as ass covering for dragging out a decade of employment and not really every improving the teams chances for a Lombardi, break some damn eggs and get to making omlets IMO, but we are stuck for another year so buckle up for another exciting adventure.
I know you think the panacea to our misery is a tank and tear down, but I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think we're far FAR more likely to win a Super Bowl in the next 2-4 years doing exactly what we're doing.
Or we could take the Lions/Bears approach. Tear it down, hire a new coach every 3-4 years, a new GM every 8-9 years. Perpetual suck. The Lions superbowl of the last decade was beating the packers and making sure neither got to the playoffs.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
People like black and white. Good or bad. Competitive rebuild is too nebulous for most fans.
This. Folks complain about the living in today and tomorrow as if that's a bad thing. But that's what they should be doing.
Unless you believe the team should be torn down, which I think is absurd, you’re literally trying to set up a dominant roster for the future, while remaining a playoff team.
I believe that is called purgatory, or better known as mediocrity. Making the playoffs hasnt meant anything since they went to half the conference making the playoffs, hell it meant little more before that even, how often does a surprise team win a superbowl that hasnt undergone some major changes to really refocus their roster and add talent? ( the giants a few years back comes to mind as the last) I see "competitive rebuild" as ass covering for dragging out a decade of employment and not really every improving the teams chances for a Lombardi, break some damn eggs and get to making omlets IMO, but we are stuck for another year so buckle up for another exciting adventure.
I know you think the panacea to our misery is a tank and tear down, but I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think we're far FAR more likely to win a Super Bowl in the next 2-4 years doing exactly what we're doing.
I didnt say tank, I said be more proactive with players that are likely not the long term answer, like Cousin, like Hunter, etc if they have value now, but arent part of the long term plan as of now, quit fucking around and move them for value or if they are in the plans, get them under contract now for less than what it will cost next year, or if they wont sign a decent deal, then see the previous path. either way we will have a ton of cap space, but an empty closet and no additional draft capital to show for it.... and be picking in the middle to later part of each round. I know that higher draft picks fail too, but wouldnt you rather have your choice of the crop instead of letting 2/3 of the league get to pick ahead of you and still have the same expectation for success?
Jesus, Jimmy, you don't think there's just a teensy bit of value in waiting to see what kind of '23 they have before committing bajillions of dollars that will also have to work with the dollars going to JJ and TJ...and Darrisaw? Does Cousins improve a lot, a little or not at all in year two? What does Hall look like? Is Hunter a fit with Flores? Does someone like PJ2 or Carter emerge?
No, dammit! Shit or get off the pot! Sounds good in bites, but it's seldom the best approach.
no i dont, I dont think Cousins is the answer at QB, and the longer we keep fucking around with a guy that cant move even a little bit in the pocket to help his OL, and we cant afford to assemble the best OL to ever protect a statue pocket passer, then we are spinning our wheels. I would have locked up JJ, TJ ( although its debatable as to whether I would have even traded for him in the first place as I would have been looking for a rebuild year or two with a new QB in the mix ) I dont see a future Lombardi with Cousins and as such I think they are wasting time right now, so no, I dont see the value in waiting unless the only goal is to sell hope/hype, because I have seen a competitive rebuild for decades with this team and the results have never changed.
They need to fix their OL and DL first, then try and put together a competitive O and D behind them, nothing is going to change with the same ole OL and the same weak ass DL, scheme can only cover so many warts. If we had a QB that moved the pocket around and was able to make the blitz miss... our OL might be sufficient, if we had sticky DBs, or a DL that could get consistent pressure, our D might be sufficient, as of right now its a shit show with really good receivers, a super good guy with a hell of an arm for a QB, and a DE that apparently thinks hes the best in the league, but honestly is only top 1/4 for his position.
I think its great that you follow the team with those shaded glasses, I used to be that way, I am just not that way anymore. When there is something to get excited about, I will get excited, I will still enjoy watching the team on game day ( sometimes) but I am not going to get all worked up over nothing, and thus far the last 2 years havent really accomplished anything besides getting rid of bad money, but that was hardly a challenge since its not like we traded those deals away and got something in return. a couple questionable drafts, made some obvious cuts, and traded away a 2nd round pick for a nice TE.
Coaches have improved and that showed on O last year, I expect to see an improved D this year due to coaching, but its still not going to be enough to be that team in January that has the rest of the NFC, let along NFL, looking in fear at.
I think you have this vision of the perfect team that just doesn't exist. Look at the Chiefs. They have the best QB the NFL has seen in years and they were horrible in that Super Bowl against the Bucs. Why? Mostly because of a couple injuries on the offensive line. And they were blown out by a team that was 7-9 the year before. Brady? Sure, but Cousins had a better passer rating that year.
That same year the Bengals went 4-11-1. The next, in the Super Bowl. And before you say it's because they got Joe Burrow back, he had 33 TDs and 14 INTs that year. Cousins had 33 TDs and 7 INTs.
But ya know what? They also improved their defense from nearly last in the NFL to middle of the pack. Could the Vikings do that? Yeah, of course. My point is that NFL team fortunes turn on a dime based on a dozen different factors. You "woe-is-me" fans never seem to understand that.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
People like black and white. Good or bad. Competitive rebuild is too nebulous for most fans.
This. Folks complain about the living in today and tomorrow as if that's a bad thing. But that's what they should be doing.
Unless you believe the team should be torn down, which I think is absurd, you’re literally trying to set up a dominant roster for the future, while remaining a playoff team.
I believe that is called purgatory, or better known as mediocrity. Making the playoffs hasnt meant anything since they went to half the conference making the playoffs, hell it meant little more before that even, how often does a surprise team win a superbowl that hasnt undergone some major changes to really refocus their roster and add talent? ( the giants a few years back comes to mind as the last) I see "competitive rebuild" as ass covering for dragging out a decade of employment and not really every improving the teams chances for a Lombardi, break some damn eggs and get to making omlets IMO, but we are stuck for another year so buckle up for another exciting adventure.
I get the fan frustration; I was 17 when the Vikings played the Raider for their last SB appearance of that century.
But c'mon James; 13 wins, @ Buffalo, The Colts comeback of our lifetime, taking the Norris Crown from GB, How many last minute wins?
Yah gotta admit, that was a fun ride.
![[Image: 8idkb6r6yysg.jpeg]](https://vikefans.com/vfforums/uploads/editor/zf/8idkb6r6yysg.jpeg)
Kwesi’s got this, no worries here…!  :p
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ minny65 said:
@ comet52 said:
Goessling pointed out that Kwesi frequently drops hints in pressers about "if we were doing it this other way", a clue that he is somewhat handcuffed due to the "super competitive" edict that comes out of Mark Wilf's mouth every time it opens.
Organizations are as good as the people at the top and don't be confused - the owners dictate the direction the ship sails, not the g.m. or the coach or anyone else. If you're happy with 10-7 and a playoff loss as a goal, then this ownership is perfect for you. Their p.r. says "We wanna win so bad!" but their actions say something entirely different. "We want to maximize profit and be good enough to keep the business revenue rolling." That is goal #1 and always will be. Getting you to buy in like "Oh my Super Bowl here we come" every year in August is their thing, and it works. Fans buy the same story out of ownership year after year, just like Charlie Brown buys that Lucy won't put him on his ass this time around.
I disagree with this about our ownership. They consistently spend to max CAP number and have since they took over. I am not sure what else they can do to show that they want to win-it-all?
Oh and our training facility and stadium are consistently ranked as one of the best.
Wanting doesn't matter. I want a million dollar salary. Fans crediting owners for wanting a title is pretty hilarious imo - what NFL owner doesn't want a title? Wow, what an accomplishment... they want one!
I could write a laundry list of their missteps along the way on the football side. They don't impress me for a variety of reasons I've written about many times here and elsewhere, but I'm not up for rehashing all that; most fans think nice buildings = greatness. I think genuinely competing for titles = greatness. Haven't seen any of that in their 18 years here other than 2009. The only hope at this point is the new KAM/KOC regime somehow gets to where Rick, Mike and the rest couldn't. I'm optimistic they might overcome the inertial championship dampers that are the Wilfs, but one never knows.
Yep, we disagree about our ownership.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
People like black and white. Good or bad. Competitive rebuild is too nebulous for most fans.
This. Folks complain about the living in today and tomorrow as if that's a bad thing. But that's what they should be doing.
Unless you believe the team should be torn down, which I think is absurd, you’re literally trying to set up a dominant roster for the future, while remaining a playoff team.
I believe that is called purgatory, or better known as mediocrity. Making the playoffs hasnt meant anything since they went to half the conference making the playoffs, hell it meant little more before that even, how often does a surprise team win a superbowl that hasnt undergone some major changes to really refocus their roster and add talent? ( the giants a few years back comes to mind as the last) I see "competitive rebuild" as ass covering for dragging out a decade of employment and not really every improving the teams chances for a Lombardi, break some damn eggs and get to making omlets IMO, but we are stuck for another year so buckle up for another exciting adventure.
I get the fan frustration; I was 17 when the Vikings played the Raider for their last SB appearance of that century.
But c'mon James; 13 wins, @ Buffalo, The Colts comeback of our lifetime, taking the Norris Crown from GB, How many last minute wins?
Yah gotta admit, that was a fun ride.
You saw great wins, I saw sheer dumb luck and embarrassing football. I was at that Colts shitshow, only thing worse than our worst half of football was the Colts even worse second half, better game calling by indy and we dont win that one, Buffalo took a fumbled snap in their own end zone, again another mistake by the other team, not something the Vikings forced or did right other than falling on the loose ball, fun in the moment, but in reality just really dumb luck, we had 1 (?) Win last year that we just went out and took care of business ourselves IIRC, the rest were struggles or catching a team in a really bad time,, and that to me wasn't a sign of a good team. Some of those losses were flat out embarrassing and those were against the teams in the playoff contention at the end.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ purplefaithful said:
People like black and white. Good or bad. Competitive rebuild is too nebulous for most fans.
This. Folks complain about the living in today and tomorrow as if that's a bad thing. But that's what they should be doing.
Unless you believe the team should be torn down, which I think is absurd, you’re literally trying to set up a dominant roster for the future, while remaining a playoff team.
I believe that is called purgatory, or better known as mediocrity. Making the playoffs hasnt meant anything since they went to half the conference making the playoffs, hell it meant little more before that even, how often does a surprise team win a superbowl that hasnt undergone some major changes to really refocus their roster and add talent? ( the giants a few years back comes to mind as the last) I see "competitive rebuild" as ass covering for dragging out a decade of employment and not really every improving the teams chances for a Lombardi, break some damn eggs and get to making omlets IMO, but we are stuck for another year so buckle up for another exciting adventure.
I know you think the panacea to our misery is a tank and tear down, but I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I think we're far FAR more likely to win a Super Bowl in the next 2-4 years doing exactly what we're doing.
Or we could take the Lions/Bears approach. Tear it down, hire a new coach every 3-4 years, a new GM every 8-9 years. Perpetual suck. The Lions superbowl of the last decade was beating the packers and making sure neither got to the playoffs.
When was the last time the team took a big reset season or two? Hardly in the realm of the teams doing it 2 or 3 times a decade.
|
