Depends on how Sunday goes. If Zimmer shows that he's willing to try to win by any means possible- rather than just winning "his way"- then I think we keep him. If he remains stubborn, and prefers to lose "his way" than win any other way... then I say it's time to let him go.
And, by "his way", I mean trying to win solely with a running-heavy offense and bend-but-don't-break defense. I've come around on my thinking on that. I used to like it. Now I see that all it does is guaranteed that every game is going to be close (or closer than it should be).
We will not win that way on Sunday- especially with 1 CB (Hughes) out and the other (Mac) hurt. We will only win by out-scoring the Saints. Now: will Zimmer go along with that... or just try to control the clock and play prevent defense? We shall see.
I don't think Zimmer would be happy to work for Jerry Jones. His previous stint with the Cowboys was essentially working for Parcells who is his mentor. But to directly work for Jones does not seem like a personality fit at all. Zimmer might retire if the Vikes decide to move on.
I was a huge Zimmer supporter up until we had to have a miracle to beat the Saints after folding in the 4th quarter of a game we dominated. Then we got embarrassingly crushed in Philly (which I was at). IMO - he fails to get this team up for big spotlight games. That Packer loss two weeks ago was another and most recent example and at home.
I am not necessarily for cutting him loose after this season but if we could actually get any draft pick for him would be a no brainer - IMO.
Quote: @A1Janitor said:
Zimmer for two firsts and an OL of our choice.
deal.
This is a deal I could live with 
There's a reason Jerry is interested. And he is definitely interested according to a lot more sources than just Dan G., who's pretty plugged in, so the complaining really surprises me.
NE is dealing with Brady leaving speculation. The Chiefs OC is actively interviewing. Many teams are interested in both Ravens Coordinators. Is the media screwing over those teams by reporting it? Sports is entertainment. How is the media supposed to not report what they hear?
Jones kept the same conservative, risk-averse HC for 10 years. As much as he takes chances as a Businessman he is the polar opposite as a GM. And he has a long relationship with Zimmer. As a fan I'm not even remotely flattered that the owner of a team that is the very definition of mediocre wants Minnesota's conservative, old school coach.
I'd do the trade if it was for a 1st and La'el Collins. Shoot. Give me Collins and four 7th Round picks and let Rick go wild at the end of the Draft!
Quote: @HappyViking said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
They need to rebuild, and I'd have no problem if Spielman left too. I don't trust him to rebuild this team either; especially when drafting QBs and WRs.
You don't trust him to draft a QB despite the fact that he drafted Teddy? You don't trust him to draft a WR despite the fact that he drafted Diggs in the 5th, undrafted Thielen and Bisi looks pretty good. Certainly looks better than half of the two dozen or so receivers who went ahead of him. It's OK to hold him responsible for Ponder and Treadwell, but if you do that, I'd like you to me a favor and look up the drafts of every NFL team over the last 6 to 8 years and tell me which of those is without not just a couple, but several 1st round busts. If you objectively compare his drafts to the rest of the NFL, I'm fairly certain you will find that, in terms of drafting, he's easily a top 5 GM. And the best part is that he's getting better at it.
One of the things that always bugs me is that when the media ranks their top GMs, Rick typically finishes top 6 or 7 and Belichick finishes #1. It's bullshit. Patriots have been good for two reasons. Tom Brady and Belichick's defense. Belichick the GM (at least the drafter) has been pretty god-damned awful. Who do you want Sony Michel or Dalvin Cook? Aaron Dobson or Stefon Diggs? Dominique Easley or Danielle Hunter? Damian Harris or Alexander Mattison? I know ther'es more to being a GM than the draft, but that's what I pay attention to. In fact, in terms of just drafting, the only GM I'd put ahead of Rick is Mickey Loomis.
Hopefully the Wilfs are able to take things apart and evaluate them separately, because losing Spielman would be a colossal blunder.
Looking back it would've been better to draft Garoppolo or even Carr than trading up for Teddy, don't you think? Teddy is a great guy, and we all thought he had potential, but we still don't know if he's "starter" material, do we? After whiffing so badly on Ponder, I do believe Norv Turner had a very big role in picking Teddy anyway. I certainly don't trust RS picking out a future franchise QB again.
Yes, Diggs and Rice were very good picks, but the list WRs drafted is long that never should've been selected. Thielen and Johnson weren't drafted and were signed undrafted. While I'm glad those two are on the team, that still doen's mean guys like Flashy, Childs, Treadwell, Coley, Adams, and others weren't bad picks.
Spielman's draft history for OL is fairly poor too, IMO.
Then you haven't compared it to other teams. Childs and Adams? Really? Did you know that roughly 80% of all NFL draft picks are misses, aren't with the team that drafted them 4 years later? 80%. And the vast majority of those don't even get a 2nd contract. If a team can get 2 starters from a draft, that's good. 3 is exceptional. Since 2015, the Vikings have drafted 15 starters and 4 regular contributors (Mattison, Kearse, etc), about a 3rd of whom are elite or pro bowl level players (Diggs, Hunter, Cook, Kendricks). You wanna know why we're in the playoffs this year? And were in the NFCC two years ago? It's for that reason.
Viking fans--heck, all fans--tend to be very myopic when it comes to their teams. For example, the qualifiers that you use to hold against Spielman (Diggs was lucky, Norv picked Teddy, Thielen wasn't drafted) you don't attach to other teams, and so it's not a fair comparison.
What's more, many of the draft-day decisions that us "smart" fans criticized at the time (taking O'Neill, Hughes, trading down for 7th rounders) looks damned insightful right now. O'Neill is probably our best lineman. The Hughes pick doesn't just look smart right now, but damned crucial. And those trade downs have resulted in our starting long snapper, our dime back, Bisi, Odenigbo, Kearse, Weatherly and Shamar Stephen. And if you think that kind of contribution is typical for the 7th round, again, look around.
I would do it because I think Zimmer has peaked here. BUT -- I would not be surprised to see Zimmer have more success with another organization, and it's simply because I think head coaches rarely succeed with their very first NFL head coaching job. Belicheck, Carroll, even going back to Don Shula, there are many examples of guys who didn't excel until they did poorly once and tried again. Honestly, it's one of my core concerns about Zimmer - he's coached a long time but was a first-timer with us.
Maybe it improves a coach to get fired and have to really accept they made mistakes...maybe a guy like Zimmer would go back to his farm and think, "I cared too much about my defensive ranking or avoiding turnovers" or whatever. So if Zimmer was acquired by the Cowboys in a trade he might not go through that self-assessment. But even if he did go somewhere and win, it doesn't mean he would follow that same course if he stayed here.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
They need to rebuild, and I'd have no problem if Spielman left too. I don't trust him to rebuild this team either; especially when drafting QBs and WRs.
You don't trust him to draft a QB despite the fact that he drafted Teddy? You don't trust him to draft a WR despite the fact that he drafted Diggs in the 5th, undrafted Thielen and Bisi looks pretty good. Certainly looks better than half of the two dozen or so receivers who went ahead of him. It's OK to hold him responsible for Ponder and Treadwell, but if you do that, I'd like you to me a favor and look up the drafts of every NFL team over the last 6 to 8 years and tell me which of those is without not just a couple, but several 1st round busts. If you objectively compare his drafts to the rest of the NFL, I'm fairly certain you will find that, in terms of drafting, he's easily a top 5 GM. And the best part is that he's getting better at it.
One of the things that always bugs me is that when the media ranks their top GMs, Rick typically finishes top 6 or 7 and Belichick finishes #1. It's bullshit. Patriots have been good for two reasons. Tom Brady and Belichick's defense. Belichick the GM (at least the drafter) has been pretty god-damned awful. Who do you want Sony Michel or Dalvin Cook? Aaron Dobson or Stefon Diggs? Dominique Easley or Danielle Hunter? Damian Harris or Alexander Mattison? I know ther'es more to being a GM than the draft, but that's what I pay attention to. In fact, in terms of just drafting, the only GM I'd put ahead of Rick is Mickey Loomis.
Hopefully the Wilfs are able to take things apart and evaluate them separately, because losing Spielman would be a colossal blunder.
Looking back it would've been better to draft Garoppolo or even Carr than trading up for Teddy, don't you think? Teddy is a great guy, and we all thought he had potential, but we still don't know if he's "starter" material, do we? After whiffing so badly on Ponder, I do believe Norv Turner had a very big role in picking Teddy anyway. I certainly don't trust RS picking out a future franchise QB again.
Yes, Diggs and Rice were very good picks, but the list WRs drafted is long that never should've been selected. Thielen and Johnson weren't drafted and were signed undrafted. While I'm glad those two are on the team, that still doen's mean guys like Flashy, Childs, Treadwell, Coley, Adams, and others weren't bad picks.
Spielman's draft history for OL is fairly poor too, IMO.
Then you haven't compared it to other teams. Childs and Adams? Really? Did you know that roughly 80% of all NFL draft picks are misses, aren't with the team that drafted them 4 years later? 80%. And the vast majority of those don't even get a 2nd contract. If a team can get 2 starters from a draft, that's good. 3 is exceptional. Since 2015, the Vikings have drafted 15 starters and 4 regular contributors (Mattison, Kearse, etc), about a 3rd of whom are elite or pro bowl level players (Diggs, Hunter, Cook, Kendricks). You wanna know why we're in the playoffs this year? And were in the NFCC two years ago? It's for that reason.
Viking fans--heck, all fans--tend to be very myopic when it comes to their teams. For example, the qualifiers that you use to hold against Spielman (Diggs was lucky, Norv picked Teddy, Thielen wasn't drafted) you don't attach to other teams, and so it's not a fair comparison.
What's more, many of the draft-day decisions that us "smart" fans criticized at the time (taking O'Neill, Hughes, trading down for 7th rounders) looks damned insightful right now. O'Neill is probably our best lineman. The Hughes pick doesn't just look smart right now, but damned crucial. And those trade downs have resulted in our starting long snapper, our dime back, Bisi, Odenigbo, Kearse, Weatherly and Shamar Stephen. And if you think that kind of contribution is typical for the 7th round, again, look around. You didn't bother to lookup and compare to other GMs either. I don't want to spend that much time on this. He's not the worst GM out there; I just think RS is way overrated by some Minnesota fans.
Cousins hasn't been great, but RS paid $84 mill to get the team a top rated QB because he hasn't drafted a reliable starting QB the entire time he's been here. While KC hasn't made the Vikings great, he's probably the reason we were good enough to earn the 6th seed this year. Sure there have been good picks with RS, but I do believe every team has good picks too.
Do you really think Hughes was a good 1st round pick? The ROI for that 1st rounder is very questionable. Hopefully he improves next year, but so far I haven't been impressed. I'm not sure he's any better than Hill or Boyd, to be honest.
I think this team is aging, and getting stale again, and RS doesn't appear to be building a Championship team anytime soon.
Quote: @HappyViking said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ HappyViking said:
They need to rebuild, and I'd have no problem if Spielman left too. I don't trust him to rebuild this team either; especially when drafting QBs and WRs.
You don't trust him to draft a QB despite the fact that he drafted Teddy? You don't trust him to draft a WR despite the fact that he drafted Diggs in the 5th, undrafted Thielen and Bisi looks pretty good. Certainly looks better than half of the two dozen or so receivers who went ahead of him. It's OK to hold him responsible for Ponder and Treadwell, but if you do that, I'd like you to me a favor and look up the drafts of every NFL team over the last 6 to 8 years and tell me which of those is without not just a couple, but several 1st round busts. If you objectively compare his drafts to the rest of the NFL, I'm fairly certain you will find that, in terms of drafting, he's easily a top 5 GM. And the best part is that he's getting better at it.
One of the things that always bugs me is that when the media ranks their top GMs, Rick typically finishes top 6 or 7 and Belichick finishes #1. It's bullshit. Patriots have been good for two reasons. Tom Brady and Belichick's defense. Belichick the GM (at least the drafter) has been pretty god-damned awful. Who do you want Sony Michel or Dalvin Cook? Aaron Dobson or Stefon Diggs? Dominique Easley or Danielle Hunter? Damian Harris or Alexander Mattison? I know ther'es more to being a GM than the draft, but that's what I pay attention to. In fact, in terms of just drafting, the only GM I'd put ahead of Rick is Mickey Loomis.
Hopefully the Wilfs are able to take things apart and evaluate them separately, because losing Spielman would be a colossal blunder.
Looking back it would've been better to draft Garoppolo or even Carr than trading up for Teddy, don't you think? Teddy is a great guy, and we all thought he had potential, but we still don't know if he's "starter" material, do we? After whiffing so badly on Ponder, I do believe Norv Turner had a very big role in picking Teddy anyway. I certainly don't trust RS picking out a future franchise QB again.
Yes, Diggs and Rice were very good picks, but the list WRs drafted is long that never should've been selected. Thielen and Johnson weren't drafted and were signed undrafted. While I'm glad those two are on the team, that still doen's mean guys like Flashy, Childs, Treadwell, Coley, Adams, and others weren't bad picks.
Spielman's draft history for OL is fairly poor too, IMO.
Then you haven't compared it to other teams. Childs and Adams? Really? Did you know that roughly 80% of all NFL draft picks are misses, aren't with the team that drafted them 4 years later? 80%. And the vast majority of those don't even get a 2nd contract. If a team can get 2 starters from a draft, that's good. 3 is exceptional. Since 2015, the Vikings have drafted 15 starters and 4 regular contributors (Mattison, Kearse, etc), about a 3rd of whom are elite or pro bowl level players (Diggs, Hunter, Cook, Kendricks). You wanna know why we're in the playoffs this year? And were in the NFCC two years ago? It's for that reason.
Viking fans--heck, all fans--tend to be very myopic when it comes to their teams. For example, the qualifiers that you use to hold against Spielman (Diggs was lucky, Norv picked Teddy, Thielen wasn't drafted) you don't attach to other teams, and so it's not a fair comparison.
What's more, many of the draft-day decisions that us "smart" fans criticized at the time (taking O'Neill, Hughes, trading down for 7th rounders) looks damned insightful right now. O'Neill is probably our best lineman. The Hughes pick doesn't just look smart right now, but damned crucial. And those trade downs have resulted in our starting long snapper, our dime back, Bisi, Odenigbo, Kearse, Weatherly and Shamar Stephen. And if you think that kind of contribution is typical for the 7th round, again, look around. You didn't bother to lookup and compare to other GMs either. I don't want to spend that much time on this. He's not the worst GM out there; I just think RS is way overrated by some Minnesota fans.
Cousins hasn't been great, but RS paid $84 mill to get the team a top rated QB because he hasn't drafted a reliable starting QB the entire time he's been here. While KC hasn't made the Vikings great, he's probably the reason we were good enough to earn the 6th seed this year. Sure there have been good picks with RS, but I do believe every team has good picks too.
Do you really think Hughes was a good 1st round pick? The ROI for that 1st rounder is very questionable. Hopefully he improves next year, but so far I haven't been impressed. I'm not sure he's any better than Hill or Boyd, to be honest.
I think this team is aging, and getting stale again, and RS doesn't appear to be building a Championship team anytime soon.
This aging thing is another misconception I keep hearing about. Vikings have the 6th youngest roster in the NFL. Also, Cousins salary is irrelevant as a factor. That's what his market value was. If Rick didn't pay it, another team would have. Cousins, the 3rd highest ranked QB in the NFL, is a feather in his cap, not a blemish. And, yes, a lot of our offensive success this season has to do with Kubiak. But remember, Spielman hired him, too.
Doesn't the HC pick out his staff?
Quote: @"BarrNone55" said:
Doesn't the HC pick out his staff?
It's ironic you ask. Kubiak wanted to stay in Denver, but wanted to retain his guys. Elway refused. Kubiak walked. Spielman jumped. No, I doubt Rick did anything without consulting Zim. Actually, Stefanski was the big advocate I hear.
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