Quote: @"NorthernCalVike" said:
The lack of running game last year is why our Play Action just wasn't there, and I think thats what pissed Zimmer off so much and our OC was shown the door. And from what I heard and saw of Cousins in Washington was that he was excellent at selling the Play Action. But if you don't run the ball a lot, Defenses won't bite on it.
Just an FYI.
Percentage of play action plays with Cousins as QB (play callers):
2015 - Was - 19% (McVay)
2016 - Was - 18% (McVay)
2017 - Was - 21% (Gruden)
2018 - Min - 21% (Deflip & Stephanski)
Edit: that's per football outsiders
Carr has typically been down on the Vikings, so I was surprised to hear this take.
A change in philosophy and scheme can work as evidenced by the success Shurmur had with a fairly mediocre offensive line and backup quarterback and running back. But Shurmur was a gifted OC,who I would rate right up there with the likes of Burns and Billick.
It remains to be seen if the Stephanski , Kubiak influenced offensive system can plug in cast off free agent linemen, who quite frankly, I had never heard of, and turn a pigs ear into a silk purse.
While I appreciate Carr's optomism and remain hopeful, I am still rather skeptical.
Quote: @"StickyBun" said:
Done debating and arguing the 'whys' of it all, just win some football games.
Ha! Fool me once...
Quote: @"NorthernCalVike" said:
The lack of running game last year is why our Play Action just wasn't there, and I think thats what pissed Zimmer off so much and our OC was shown the door. And from what I heard and saw of Cousins in Washington was that he was excellent at selling the Play Action. But if you don't run the ball a lot, Defenses won't bite on it.
This is kind of crazy but the idea you need to run the ball to have an effective play action passing game is an urban myth. There is no correlation between PA success rate and rushing success rate, kind of strange.
The reason play action wasn't there last season was because the Vikings were generally playing from behind when the threat of running the ball wasn't as great. PA passes suffer in those conditions since teams are trying to take away the intermediate and deep areas of the field and could care less if you want to run and keep the clock moving. Overall game conditions dictate PA effectiveness more than anything else. Here is an in-depth piece on it as well: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2019/play-action-passing-and-game-conditions
If you want to get away from analytics the reason the Bill Walsh coaching tree has had so much success with PA is due to their personnel groupings. This is subjective but if you look at what the Rams have done under McVay and what Kyle Shannahan has done both in ATL and SF the key to an offense is making every play look the same. If you can run, pass to all levels of the field, and run PA out of the same look you can really make it hard for the defense to prepare before the snap. Its the ultimate disguise of knowing what you're going to do while getting the defense to show their hand. The Rams offensive film vs. the Vikings last season was a great example of this. The Kubiak's will bring that to MN next season and personnel aside it should help the Vikings offense efficiency immediately.
Sorry - not trying to disregard your post. I've done a lot of looking into PA passing league wide and have studied McVay's offense out of curiosity.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"NorthernCalVike" said:
The lack of running game last year is why our Play Action just wasn't there, and I think thats what pissed Zimmer off so much and our OC was shown the door. And from what I heard and saw of Cousins in Washington was that he was excellent at selling the Play Action. But if you don't run the ball a lot, Defenses won't bite on it.
This is kind of crazy but the idea you need to run the ball to have an effective play action passing game is an urban myth. There is no correlation between PA success rate and rushing success rate, kind of strange.
The reason play action wasn't there last season was because the Vikings were generally playing from behind when the threat of running the ball wasn't as great. PA passes suffer in those conditions since teams are trying to take away the intermediate and deep areas of the field and could care less if you want to run and keep the clock moving. Overall game conditions dictate PA effectiveness more than anything else. Here is an in-depth piece on it as well: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2019/play-action-passing-and-game-conditions
If you want to get away from analytics the reason the Bill Walsh coaching tree has had so much success with PA is due to their personnel groupings. This is subjective but if you look at what the Rams have done under McVay and what Kyle Shannahan has done both in ATL and SF the key to an offense is making every play look the same. If you can run, pass to all levels of the field, and run PA out of the same look you can really make it hard for the defense to prepare before the snap. Its the ultimate disguise of knowing what you're going to do while getting the defense to show their hand. The Rams offensive film vs. the Vikings last season was a great example of this. The Kubiak's will bring that to MN next season and personnel aside it should help the Vikings offense efficiency immediately.
Sorry - not trying to disregard your post. I've done a lot of looking into PA passing league wide and have studied McVay's offense out of curiosity.
No offense taken - you gave me some great education with this response! Great article - and makes a lot of sense to me.
Quote: @"purplefaithful" said:
Unless lady luck takes another dump on the Vikings, I fully expect this to be a "bounce-back" year with a spot in the post-season dance.
It should be. I'll be more (or less) confident in that once I see our draft and what we add between the draft and training camp. So many questions. Does the draft fall right for us? Do we have Waynes? Who's our starting 3T? Who's our starting left guard? Does O'Neill move? Is Reiff even on the team? Who's our 3rd receiver? In either case, the core of a very good team is still there.
Quote: @"FSUVike" said:
@"StickyBun" said:
Done debating and arguing the 'whys' of it all, just win some football games.
Ha! Fool me once...
Its the thought of the moment! :p
Quote: @"MaroonBells" said:
@"purplefaithful" said:
Unless lady luck takes another dump on the Vikings, I fully expect this to be a "bounce-back" year with a spot in the post-season dance.
It should be. I'll be more (or less) confident in that once I see our draft and what we add between the draft and training camp. So many questions. Does the draft fall right for us? Do we have Waynes? Who's our starting 3T? Who's our starting left guard? Does O'Neill move? Is Reiff even on the team? Who's our 3rd receiver? In either case, the core of a very good team is still there.
This is the part that everyone forgets. The roster underachieved last year, even losing a few pieces leaves them with one of the better rosters in the NFL. It just comes down to playing up to their talent level which not even the draft will dictate.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"NorthernCalVike" said:
The lack of running game last year is why our Play Action just wasn't there, and I think thats what pissed Zimmer off so much and our OC was shown the door. And from what I heard and saw of Cousins in Washington was that he was excellent at selling the Play Action. But if you don't run the ball a lot, Defenses won't bite on it.
This is kind of crazy but the idea you need to run the ball to have an effective play action passing game is an urban myth. There is no correlation between PA success rate and rushing success rate, kind of strange.
The reason play action wasn't there last season was because the Vikings were generally playing from behind when the threat of running the ball wasn't as great. PA passes suffer in those conditions since teams are trying to take away the intermediate and deep areas of the field and could care less if you want to run and keep the clock moving. Overall game conditions dictate PA effectiveness more than anything else. Here is an in-depth piece on it as well: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2019/play-action-passing-and-game-conditions
If you want to get away from analytics the reason the Bill Walsh coaching tree has had so much success with PA is due to their personnel groupings. This is subjective but if you look at what the Rams have done under McVay and what Kyle Shannahan has done both in ATL and SF the key to an offense is making every play look the same. If you can run, pass to all levels of the field, and run PA out of the same look you can really make it hard for the defense to prepare before the snap. Its the ultimate disguise of knowing what you're going to do while getting the defense to show their hand. The Rams offensive film vs. the Vikings last season was a great example of this. The Kubiak's will bring that to MN next season and personnel aside it should help the Vikings offense efficiency immediately.
Sorry - not trying to disregard your post. I've done a lot of looking into PA passing league wide and have studied McVay's offense out of curiosity.
I really appreciate your last full paragraph on subjectivity. I only played football in high school and shouldn't be able to predict the play with such accuracy just by seeing them line up. I will greatly welcome the ability to run many plays out of the same look.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@"MaroonBells" said:
@"purplefaithful" said:
Unless lady luck takes another dump on the Vikings, I fully expect this to be a "bounce-back" year with a spot in the post-season dance.
It should be. I'll be more (or less) confident in that once I see our draft and what we add between the draft and training camp. So many questions. Does the draft fall right for us? Do we have Waynes? Who's our starting 3T? Who's our starting left guard? Does O'Neill move? Is Reiff even on the team? Who's our 3rd receiver? In either case, the core of a very good team is still there.
This is the part that everyone forgets. The roster underachieved last year, even losing a few pieces leaves them with one of the better rosters in the NFL. It just comes down to playing up to their talent level which not even the draft will dictate.
Apologies first, and no offense intended. Nothing but respect really. But the essentially .500 roster last year, that under achieved, has not been been changed much in the off season.
I have to ask myself why they under achieved.
The two things that I saw last year, were a Zimmer defense that played a lot more passive defense, with less man coverage, which I think is the strength of Zimmer's defense, and a QB who isn't great under adversity. I fear this will get worse with the new rule change.
Yes Cousins has decent stats, but he became check down Charlie at the end of the season.
I hope I'm wrong. But for me, in the back of my mind, this bothers me and is likely independent of any roster moves.
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